SumOfAllFears
Grim Reaper of Misguided Liberal Souls
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RE: Barry may have to say good-bye to 2012
(02-25-2010 09:55 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote: (02-24-2010 06:27 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote: Stanly Why are you so dismissive about questions about the so called facts? There are unknowns. You have to admit that "natural born citizen" clause of the constitution has never been fully settled by the SCOTUS. Why? If there are questions and it is not settled, you cannot dismiss questions raised by citizens. We have a constitutional right of redress of grievances. Yet you and alot of other people do so dismiss out of hand because you have been spoonfed your whole life. Some people are starting to puke it up and demand better.
I am dismissive of the questions because I know the answer is affirmative = I am 100% convinced that Barrack Obama is an American citizen eligible to be the President of the United States of America.
And don't you dare mistake that comment as some sort of support for the Presidental policies of this administration. People in this country are seemingly fed up with any and all government. Trust me, your view and my view of the current US government is compatible, we just see different avenues of attack, but I'll be damned if I lend my support to a movement that gives any creedence to fringe conspiracy theory. I'm watching the Tea Party movement very closely, and if they veer into Truther Birther Google Ron Paul I am finished.
It doesn't matter if the "natural born citizen" clause of the US Constitution has or hasn't been settled to your liking; it only matters that the evidence put forward was authorized as acceptable by all parties charged with vetting eligibility. If you don't believe this is the case, then you are claiming massive government conspiracy across multiple states, agencies and to the top level of our goverment. History has proven that there is no way that many people can keep a secret. I've worked for the government at the state and federal level - it is nothing but a bunch of average Joes. There is little appetite and skill sets to keep, manage and maintain X-Files.
And stop it with the "we're just asking questions" line of reasoning. That is the exact garbage that the Truthers pull out every time they open their mouths. So what is the difference between:
Truther How come I saw puffs of smoke coming from the lower floors of WTC 1 prior to the collapse? I am just asking. It's my constitutional right! I know all the proof points clearly that the planes hit the towers, and all modern engineering and science shows conclusively that the towers collapsed after the heat of the fires bent the steel supporting beams, but I am just asking! It's my constitutional right!
and
Birther How come I can't see, feel and hold the original birth certificate for Barrack Obama in my hands, even though it would in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM change my opinon that he is eligible for the Presidency. I am just asking, it's my constitutional right!
The Birther movement has moved into crackpot territory. Crack-fvuckin-pot. Truther = Birther / Birther = Truther
If you take anything away from what I've said here and in numerous other posts, it is simply that attacking the President on birth certificate and citizenship grounds is a positive dead end.
And even if you respond to everything else I've said above, read this twice:
Your efforts and concerns about the birth certificate and citizenship status of the President of the United States would be better utilized in volunteering at a Tea Party event, running for local office, or some other sort of action and concern that actually would lend itself to real, honest change in this country.
And really, I'm spoonfed? I love it! So my life of athletic and academic success, my marriage, my son, my job and my mortgage were just handed to me, and somehow that is not "keepin it real?" What exactly is keepin it real with the fringe, living in a trailer with tinfoil walls, writing missives to your representative, dissing the Census worker, and complaining when the gas company comes on your property to check the meter? Would that give me the proper street cred? And what's next, are you going to call us all sheeple?
You seem like a reasonable person. I don't understand why you cannot see that the Truther = Birther are far from the same. Here you are wrong. The Truther questions about 911 have been debunked to the nth degree. The controversy about Obama's eligibility has not.(and it's definatly not because it is not to my liking or yours). You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. And BTW, these questions do matter.
Code:
BadFiction – “The Indonesian Citizenship Myth”
http://badfiction.typepad.com/badfiction/the-indonesian-citizenship-myth.html
The Indonesian Citizenship Myth
I have read this post in detail and must say, with all due respect, I disagree. Some very important parts were left out, which I do not believe was intentional. Thus, I would like to respond accordingly.
First, I am unsure as to where badfiction obtained the Indonesian laws, I’m unsure as to the dates, etc. However, there are discrepancies.
Badfiction is correct in stating that if a woman married a foreign citizen they would have lost their U.S. citizenship status if married prior to September 22, 1922. However, there is more to this, see 8 U.S.C. Section 1435(a)(2) which states “on or after September 22, 1922, a women who lost United States citizenship by marriage to an alien ineligible to citizenship…” However, Indonesia also required Stanley Ann Dunham to relinquish her U.S. Citizenship, which is an affirmative act, therefore, Stanley Ann Dunham did not simply lose her U.S. Citizenship status by marriage alone.
Badfiction claims that a parent cannot expatriate a child’s U.S. citizenship, however, this is not correct. See The Nationality Act of 1940, revised 1952, Section 318(a) “A former citizen of the United States expatriated through the expatriation of such person’s parent or parents and who has not acquired the nationality of another country by any affirmative act other than the expatriation of his parent or parents may be naturalized upon filing a petition for naturalization before reaching age of twenty-five years and upon compliance with all requirements of the naturalization laws with the following exceptions: (b) No former citizen of the United States, expatriated through the expatriation of such person’s parent or parents shall be obliged to comply with the requirements of the immigration laws, if he has not not acquired the nationality of another country by any affirmative act other than the expatriation of his parent or parents, and if he has come or shall come to the United States before reaching the age of twenty-five years. (c) After his naturalization such person shall have the same citizenship status as if he had not been expatriated.”
Renewing an Indonesian Passport after the age of 18 is an affirmative act, as you are swearing allegiance to another Country. Soetoro/Obama renewed his Indonesian Passport when he traveled to Pakistan, that is why he had to stop in Indonesia first. Remember, in 1981, Dunham was divorcing Soetoro in Hawaii and was not in Indonesia. Obama/Soetoro admits to traveling to Indonesia first and then onto Pakistan. Soetoro/Obama claims in his book “Dreams from my father” that he stopped in Indonesia to visit his mother. But again, his mother was not in Indonesia, she was in Hawaii with Maya, divorcing Lolo Soetoro. In addition, the State Department has stated in response to a FOIA request that they do not have a U.S. Passport application on file for Barack H. Obama.
Despite the above however, Indonesia required Obama/Soetoro to do a bit more upon his 18th birthday. In fact the Indonesian law gives until the age of 21. Soetoro/Obama would have had to sign an Affidavit relinquishing his Indonesian citizenship and said Affidavit had to be sent to the Indonesian Government before reclaiming any U.S. citizenship he may have once held.
When it comes to the citizenship of individuals in other countries, we are prevented from interfering, Hague Convention 1930. Speaking of Indonesia, during the late 60’s all the way up until 2006 Indonesia did not allow dual citizenship. In 2006 they changed their laws to permit dual citizenship, however, Indonesia has had its battles with enforcing their new law permitting dual citizenship.
With this said, from the research we have done, it appears that Soetoro became an Indonesian citizen. When Soetoro/Obama was approximately four (4) years old his parents divorced and thereafter, Soetoro/Obama’s mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, married Lolo Soetoro, a citizen of Indonesia. Evidence points to the fact that Lolo Soetoro either signed a government form legally “acknowledging” Soetoro/Obama as his son or “adopted” Soetoro, either of which changed any citizenship status Soetoro/Obama had to a “natural” citizen of Indonesia.
At the time Barry Soetoro was in Indonesia, all Indonesian students were required to carry government identity cards or Karty Tanda Pendudaks, as well as family card identification called a Kartu Keluarga. The Kartu Keluarga is a family card which bears the legal names and citizenship status of all family members.
Soetoro/Obama was registered in a public school as an Indonesian citizen by the name of Barry Soetoro and his father was listed as Lolo Soetoro, M.A. Indonesia did not allow foreign students to attend their public schools in the late 1960’s or 1970’s, and any time a child was registered for a public school, the child’s name and citizenship status were verified through the Indonesian Government. See Constitution of Republic of Indonesia (Undang-Undang Dasar Republik Indonesia 1945), Chapter 13, Law No. 62 of 1958 (all citizens of Indonesia have a right to education). The Indonesian school record, indicates that Soetoro/Obama’s name is “Barry Soetoro;” his nationality is “Indonesia” and his father “Lolo Soetoro, M.A. There was no way for Soetoro/Obama to have attended school in Jakarta, Indonesia legally unless he was an Indonesian citizen, as Indonesia was under tight rule and was a Police State. See Constitution of Republic of Indonesia (Undang-Undang Dasar Republik Indonesia 1945), Law No. 62 of 1958. These facts indicate that Obama/Soetoro is an Indonesian citizen, and therefore he is not eligible to be President of the United States.
Under Indonesian law, when a male acknowledges a child as his son, it deems the son, in this case Soetoro/Obama, an Indonesian State citizen. See Constitution of Republic of Indonesia, Law No. 62 of 1958 concerning Immigration Affairs and Indonesian Civil Code (Kitab Undang-undang Hukum Perdata) (KUHPer) (Burgerlijk Wetboek voor Indonesie).
Furthermore, under the Indonesian adoption law, once an Indonesian citizen adopts a child, the adoption severs the child’s relationship to the birth parents, and the adopted child is given the same status as a natural child and the child takes the name of his step-father, in this case, Soetoro. See Indonesian Constitution, Article 2.
The Indonesian citizenship law was designed to prevent apatride (stateless) or bipatride (dual) citizenship. Indonesian regulations recognized neither apatride nor bipatride (stateless or dual) citizenship. Since Indonesia did not allow dual citizenship; neither did the United States (since the United States only permitted dual citizenship when ‘both’ countries agree); and since Obama/Soetoro was a “natural” citizen of Indonesia, the United States would not step in or interfere with the laws of Indonesia. Hague Convention of 1930.
As a result of Soetoro/Obama’s Indonesian “natural” citizenship status, Soetoro/Obama could never regain U.S. “natural born” status, if he in fact he ever held such, which we doubt. Soetoro/Obama could have only become “naturalized” if the proper paperwork were filed with the U.S. State Department, after going through U.S. Immigration upon his return to the United States; in which case, Soetoro/Obama would have received a Certification of Citizenship indicating “naturalized.”
We are informed, believe and thereon allege Obama/Soetoro was never naturalized in the United States after his return. Soetoro/Obama was ten (10) years old when he returned to Hawaii to live with his grandparents. Soetoro/Obama’s mother did not return with him. Therefore, it appears that she did not apply for citizenship for Soetoro/Obama in the United States. If citizenship for Soetoro/Obama had been applied for in 1971, Soetoro/Obama would have a Certification of Citizenship. If Soetoro/Obama returned in 1971 to Hawaii without going through U.S. Immigration, today he would be an “illegal alien” – and obviously not able to serve as President, but also his term as a United States Senator from Illinois for nearly four (4) years was illegal. We further believe Soetoro might have reentered the United States at age ten (10) by showing a copy of his Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth, which he received when his birth was registered in Hawaii.
In addition, we have been unable to locate any legal documents wherein Soetoro’s name was legally changed from Barry Soetoro to Barack Hussein Obama. Soetoro/Obama’s silence on these issues is deafening and his refusal to release such records to prove that none of this occurred results in his status as Acting Commander in Chief at best, and a willful action on his part to deceive the American People and the Armed Forces of the United States so that he may wield power that is in non-compliance with the United States Constitution.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2010 01:35 PM by SumOfAllFears.)
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Barry may have to say good-bye to 2012
