(09-30-2023 08:35 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 07:17 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:58 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 11:36 PM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  Biggest issue would be in the south the BIG isnt considered as good of football as the SEC. Right or wrong, it doesnt matter it is the preception.

Right or wrong? The B1G has 2.5 football Championships in 50 years. I'd take Alabama RIGHT NOW heads up against the entire B1G to win the title this year, even after their loss to Texas and terrible showing against USF. I bet a lot of other people would, too. But even if Alabama, or Georgia, or any other SEC doesn't step up this year, does anybody question whether FSU, Texas or (insert name of Pac team here) wouldn't also smoke any B1G team when it really mattered? The best thing the B1G has going for it right now is their 4 new teams starting next year.

It's an interesting premise you've got. I think you make a fair point.

Even if you don't consider it from a national title perspective, generally speaking, the Big Ten representative in the CFP gets beat handily. Not always, but generally we're talking about entrants that aren't that competitive once given the opportunity.

I will always remember the two games Bama had against Michigan State during the Saban era. The first was at the end of the 2010 season. Bama had admittedly underachieved and lost 3 games that year. They played Michigan State in the Capital One Bowl and it was a thorough beatdown 49-7. MSU had been a top 10 team going into that game.

The other one I was actually present for, the Cotton Bowl during the 2015 season. 38-0 in the semifinals. It was just never competitive.

Looking at the CFP as a whole:

2014 - Ohio State national championship - best showing to date
2015 - aforementioned Michigan State loss
2016 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 31-0.
2017 - no entrant
2018 - no entrant
2019 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 29-23
2020 - Ohio State final loss to Alabama 52-24
2021 - Michigan semifinal loss to Georgia 34-11
2022 - Ohio State and Michigan get in, but neither make the final.

If you go back to the BCS era then you have:

1998 - Tennessee over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
1999 - Florida State over Virginia Tech - no Big Ten entrant
2000 - Oklahoma over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
2001 - Miami over Nebraska - 37-14 loss for the current Big Ten program
2002 - Ohio State over Miami - best showing for Big Ten during that era
2003 - LSU over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2004 - USC over Oklahoma - future Big Ten member wins big
2005 - Texas over USC - classic SEC/Big Ten showdown here...
2006 - Florida over Ohio State - 41-14 loss
2007 - LSU over Ohio State - 38-24 loss
2008 - Florida over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2009 - Alabama over Texas - no Big Ten entrant
2010 - Auburn over Oregon - close loss for future Big Ten member
2011 - Alabama over LSU - no Big Ten entrant
2012 - Alabama over Notre Dame - no Big Ten entrant
2013 - Florida State over Auburn - no Big Ten entrant

I haven't looked at the old BCS bowl games and the showings might be a little better from that era, but I was trying to include games that included real stakes.

None of these facts matter, in FSU and Clemsons part of the country the BIG is not thought of to be on the SECs level. I would agree with you both the SEC is better and 99% of the south would too. And 99% of the south would not do any research it their god given right to know southern football is the best.

So if FSU or Clemson go to the BIG they will be considered a stepdown in their own neighborhood.

Southern schools have won 22 of the last 25 championships. The USC victory was vacated. Reggie Bush and apartments. While it's not happening, if Ohio State joined the SEC or ACC it would be 24 of the last 25 with one vacated. And in that vacated year Auburn (undefeated) was left out and had 3 or 4 #1 draft picks playing and 2 of those were top 10. It was the game that led Slive to push for the CFP.

And to Gitanole, Florida State makes plenty of money now. You are top 15 in revenue and have been top 10. Recruiting will suffer if you play a Big 10 schedule. Why? Not much interest from the fan base, and players parents will have a hard time with the commutes to games. Kids tend to want to play locally. NIL is impacting that, but a cleaned up NIL may not be as much of a factor. That is to be determined. But your fans will be impacted in travel to away games and that too will impact your donations and revenue. And should the SEC decide to play all games internally, and that is a very viable option since all the money stays in house and is more profitable than the OOC games where every two years you lose revenue on the away exchange, then FSU could find itself very limited on the schedule.

I find your argument good for leverage in a negotiation, but not much in reality. The real argument to persuade the SEC is market penetration by the Big 10 and its impact upon the SEC's ad rates and revenue. There's the argument for inclusion. And in my informed opinion, this is why Clemson, Florida State, and possibly Miami would be seen as essential additions for the integrity of the SEC control over the region extending from the Southern border of Kentucky and North Carolina and South.

While I think the B1G would gladly offer an invite to FSU and Clemson, were they to free themselves of that pesky GoR in some manner, about the only way I see them accepting a B1G offer over an SEC offer is if ESPN ticks them off by opposing any effort to get out of the GoR or rejects a serious plan to transition them to the SEC prior to the early '30s when the GoR's end is in sight. Even then, it wouldn't be them rejecting the SEC or favoring the B1G, it would be them rejecting ESPN for perceived or real slights.

(09-30-2023 12:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 08:35 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 07:17 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:58 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-29-2023 11:36 PM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  Biggest issue would be in the south the BIG isnt considered as good of football as the SEC. Right or wrong, it doesnt matter it is the preception.

Right or wrong? The B1G has 2.5 football Championships in 50 years. I'd take Alabama RIGHT NOW heads up against the entire B1G to win the title this year, even after their loss to Texas and terrible showing against USF. I bet a lot of other people would, too. But even if Alabama, or Georgia, or any other SEC doesn't step up this year, does anybody question whether FSU, Texas or (insert name of Pac team here) wouldn't also smoke any B1G team when it really mattered? The best thing the B1G has going for it right now is their 4 new teams starting next year.

It's an interesting premise you've got. I think you make a fair point.

Even if you don't consider it from a national title perspective, generally speaking, the Big Ten representative in the CFP gets beat handily. Not always, but generally we're talking about entrants that aren't that competitive once given the opportunity.

I will always remember the two games Bama had against Michigan State during the Saban era. The first was at the end of the 2010 season. Bama had admittedly underachieved and lost 3 games that year. They played Michigan State in the Capital One Bowl and it was a thorough beatdown 49-7. MSU had been a top 10 team going into that game.

The other one I was actually present for, the Cotton Bowl during the 2015 season. 38-0 in the semifinals. It was just never competitive.

Looking at the CFP as a whole:

2014 - Ohio State national championship - best showing to date
2015 - aforementioned Michigan State loss
2016 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 31-0.
2017 - no entrant
2018 - no entrant
2019 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 29-23
2020 - Ohio State final loss to Alabama 52-24
2021 - Michigan semifinal loss to Georgia 34-11
2022 - Ohio State and Michigan get in, but neither make the final.

If you go back to the BCS era then you have:

1998 - Tennessee over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
1999 - Florida State over Virginia Tech - no Big Ten entrant
2000 - Oklahoma over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
2001 - Miami over Nebraska - 37-14 loss for the current Big Ten program
2002 - Ohio State over Miami - best showing for Big Ten during that era
2003 - LSU over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2004 - USC over Oklahoma - future Big Ten member wins big
2005 - Texas over USC - classic SEC/Big Ten showdown here...
2006 - Florida over Ohio State - 41-14 loss
2007 - LSU over Ohio State - 38-24 loss
2008 - Florida over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2009 - Alabama over Texas - no Big Ten entrant
2010 - Auburn over Oregon - close loss for future Big Ten member
2011 - Alabama over LSU - no Big Ten entrant
2012 - Alabama over Notre Dame - no Big Ten entrant
2013 - Florida State over Auburn - no Big Ten entrant

I haven't looked at the old BCS bowl games and the showings might be a little better from that era, but I was trying to include games that included real stakes.

None of these facts matter, in FSU and Clemsons part of the country the BIG is not thought of to be on the SECs level. I would agree with you both the SEC is better and 99% of the south would too. And 99% of the south would not do any research it their god given right to know southern football is the best.

So if FSU or Clemson go to the BIG they will be considered a stepdown in their own neighborhood.

Southern schools have won 22 of the last 25 championships. The USC victory was vacated. Reggie Bush and apartments. While it's not happening, if Ohio State joined the SEC or ACC it would be 24 of the last 25 with one vacated. And in that vacated year Auburn (undefeated) was left out and had 3 or 4 #1 draft picks playing and 2 of those were top 10. It was the game that led Slive to push for the CFP.

And to Gitanole, Florida State makes plenty of money now. You are top 15 in revenue and have been top 10. Recruiting will suffer if you play a Big 10 schedule. Why? Not much interest from the fan base, and players parents will have a hard time with the commutes to games. Kids tend to want to play locally. NIL is impacting that, but a cleaned up NIL may not be as much of a factor. That is to be determined. But your fans will be impacted in travel to away games and that too will impact your donations and revenue. And should the SEC decide to play all games internally, and that is a very viable option since all the money stays in house and is more profitable than the OOC games where every two years you lose revenue on the away exchange, then FSU could find itself very limited on the schedule.

I find your argument good for leverage in a negotiation, but not much in reality. The real argument to persuade the SEC is market penetration by the Big 10 and its impact upon the SEC's ad rates and revenue. There's the argument for inclusion. And in my informed opinion, this is why Clemson, Florida State, and possibly Miami would be seen as essential additions for the integrity of the SEC control over the region extending from the Southern border of Kentucky and North Carolina and South.

As you know, I've been saying that I think FSU and Clemson are likely to the SEC.

That said, we also know that the Big10 seems to have the state of Florida as a priority.

So who knows.

One place I'll disagree with Bryan1996 above is that money talks. And a lot of money talks loudly : )

Is that always enough to change the outcome? No - just ask Notre Dame.

But it often does.

All that said, I ''still'' think it's likely that we'll see FSU and Clemson (and maybe NC and a friend) to the SEC, with Miami (and one or more friends) to the Big10.

(09-30-2023 02:01 PM)gwelymernans Wrote:  While I think the B1G would gladly offer an invite to FSU and Clemson, ...

It's not the Big Ten HQ making the decision on whether the Big Ten would be interested in Clemson ... and while there may well be a number of Big Ten school that would be happy to see Clemson in the Big Ten, but it's not enough of them for the Big Ten to offer an invite.

(09-30-2023 02:24 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 08:35 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 07:17 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:58 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  Right or wrong? The B1G has 2.5 football Championships in 50 years. I'd take Alabama RIGHT NOW heads up against the entire B1G to win the title this year, even after their loss to Texas and terrible showing against USF. I bet a lot of other people would, too. But even if Alabama, or Georgia, or any other SEC doesn't step up this year, does anybody question whether FSU, Texas or (insert name of Pac team here) wouldn't also smoke any B1G team when it really mattered? The best thing the B1G has going for it right now is their 4 new teams starting next year.

It's an interesting premise you've got. I think you make a fair point.

Even if you don't consider it from a national title perspective, generally speaking, the Big Ten representative in the CFP gets beat handily. Not always, but generally we're talking about entrants that aren't that competitive once given the opportunity.

I will always remember the two games Bama had against Michigan State during the Saban era. The first was at the end of the 2010 season. Bama had admittedly underachieved and lost 3 games that year. They played Michigan State in the Capital One Bowl and it was a thorough beatdown 49-7. MSU had been a top 10 team going into that game.

The other one I was actually present for, the Cotton Bowl during the 2015 season. 38-0 in the semifinals. It was just never competitive.

Looking at the CFP as a whole:

2014 - Ohio State national championship - best showing to date
2015 - aforementioned Michigan State loss
2016 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 31-0.
2017 - no entrant
2018 - no entrant
2019 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 29-23
2020 - Ohio State final loss to Alabama 52-24
2021 - Michigan semifinal loss to Georgia 34-11
2022 - Ohio State and Michigan get in, but neither make the final.

If you go back to the BCS era then you have:

1998 - Tennessee over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
1999 - Florida State over Virginia Tech - no Big Ten entrant
2000 - Oklahoma over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
2001 - Miami over Nebraska - 37-14 loss for the current Big Ten program
2002 - Ohio State over Miami - best showing for Big Ten during that era
2003 - LSU over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2004 - USC over Oklahoma - future Big Ten member wins big
2005 - Texas over USC - classic SEC/Big Ten showdown here...
2006 - Florida over Ohio State - 41-14 loss
2007 - LSU over Ohio State - 38-24 loss
2008 - Florida over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2009 - Alabama over Texas - no Big Ten entrant
2010 - Auburn over Oregon - close loss for future Big Ten member
2011 - Alabama over LSU - no Big Ten entrant
2012 - Alabama over Notre Dame - no Big Ten entrant
2013 - Florida State over Auburn - no Big Ten entrant

I haven't looked at the old BCS bowl games and the showings might be a little better from that era, but I was trying to include games that included real stakes.

None of these facts matter, in FSU and Clemsons part of the country the BIG is not thought of to be on the SECs level. I would agree with you both the SEC is better and 99% of the south would too. And 99% of the south would not do any research it their god given right to know southern football is the best.

So if FSU or Clemson go to the BIG they will be considered a stepdown in their own neighborhood.

Southern schools have won 22 of the last 25 championships. The USC victory was vacated. Reggie Bush and apartments. While it's not happening, if Ohio State joined the SEC or ACC it would be 24 of the last 25 with one vacated. And in that vacated year Auburn (undefeated) was left out and had 3 or 4 #1 draft picks playing and 2 of those were top 10. It was the game that led Slive to push for the CFP.

And to Gitanole, Florida State makes plenty of money now. You are top 15 in revenue and have been top 10. Recruiting will suffer if you play a Big 10 schedule. Why? Not much interest from the fan base, and players parents will have a hard time with the commutes to games. Kids tend to want to play locally. NIL is impacting that, but a cleaned up NIL may not be as much of a factor. That is to be determined. But your fans will be impacted in travel to away games and that too will impact your donations and revenue. And should the SEC decide to play all games internally, and that is a very viable option since all the money stays in house and is more profitable than the OOC games where every two years you lose revenue on the away exchange, then FSU could find itself very limited on the schedule.

I find your argument good for leverage in a negotiation, but not much in reality. The real argument to persuade the SEC is market penetration by the Big 10 and its impact upon the SEC's ad rates and revenue. There's the argument for inclusion. And in my informed opinion, this is why Clemson, Florida State, and possibly Miami would be seen as essential additions for the integrity of the SEC control over the region extending from the Southern border of Kentucky and North Carolina and South.

As you know, I've been saying that I think FSU and Clemson are likely to the SEC.

That said, we also know that the Big10 seems to have the state of Florida as a priority.

So who knows.

One place I'll disagree with Bryan1996 above is that money talks. And a lot of money talks loudly : )

Is that always enough to change the outcome? No - just ask Notre Dame.

But it often does.

All that said, I ''still'' think it's likely that we'll see FSU and Clemson (and maybe NC and a friend) to the SEC, with Miami (and one or more friends) to the Big10.

Miami has friends? I would think it would be the number of retired people from the Northeast or with Big 10 connections that would make Miami palpable for the Big 10. Ditto Georgia Tech. Their alums are ACC/SEC but Atlanta has a lot of Big 10 alums. Duke draws heavily from the Northeast and from California. Add those 3 to N.D. and you might have a path. But friends?

(09-30-2023 02:01 PM)gwelymernans Wrote:  While I think the B1G would gladly offer an invite to FSU and Clemson, were they to free themselves of that pesky GoR in some manner, about the only way I see them accepting a B1G offer over an SEC offer is if ESPN ticks them off by opposing any effort to get out of the GoR or rejects a serious plan to transition them to the SEC prior to the early '30s when the GoR's end is in sight. Even then, it wouldn't be them rejecting the SEC or favoring the B1G, it would be them rejecting ESPN for perceived or real slights.

That’s possible, as these things can get very emotional, but it seems kind of like biting off their noses to spite their faces. The SEC is so overwhelmingly the best choice, and we so clearly want them, that I expect it would take a lot more than hurt feelings towards our media partner to convince them to look elsewhere. Now, once they’re in, could they push for other media partners than a weakening-by-day ESPN? Heck ya they could, and after our kerfluffle over a 9th game recently they might just find fertile ground for exploring alternatives. Perhaps not of course, but I do think that we won’t be offering any sort of ESPN discount in 2034; if they end up with the entire SEC package next time, it will be bc they outbid everyone else.

(09-30-2023 02:24 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 08:35 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 07:17 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:58 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  Right or wrong? The B1G has 2.5 football Championships in 50 years. I'd take Alabama RIGHT NOW heads up against the entire B1G to win the title this year, even after their loss to Texas and terrible showing against USF. I bet a lot of other people would, too. But even if Alabama, or Georgia, or any other SEC doesn't step up this year, does anybody question whether FSU, Texas or (insert name of Pac team here) wouldn't also smoke any B1G team when it really mattered? The best thing the B1G has going for it right now is their 4 new teams starting next year.

It's an interesting premise you've got. I think you make a fair point.

Even if you don't consider it from a national title perspective, generally speaking, the Big Ten representative in the CFP gets beat handily. Not always, but generally we're talking about entrants that aren't that competitive once given the opportunity.

I will always remember the two games Bama had against Michigan State during the Saban era. The first was at the end of the 2010 season. Bama had admittedly underachieved and lost 3 games that year. They played Michigan State in the Capital One Bowl and it was a thorough beatdown 49-7. MSU had been a top 10 team going into that game.

The other one I was actually present for, the Cotton Bowl during the 2015 season. 38-0 in the semifinals. It was just never competitive.

Looking at the CFP as a whole:

2014 - Ohio State national championship - best showing to date
2015 - aforementioned Michigan State loss
2016 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 31-0.
2017 - no entrant
2018 - no entrant
2019 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 29-23
2020 - Ohio State final loss to Alabama 52-24
2021 - Michigan semifinal loss to Georgia 34-11
2022 - Ohio State and Michigan get in, but neither make the final.

If you go back to the BCS era then you have:

1998 - Tennessee over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
1999 - Florida State over Virginia Tech - no Big Ten entrant
2000 - Oklahoma over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
2001 - Miami over Nebraska - 37-14 loss for the current Big Ten program
2002 - Ohio State over Miami - best showing for Big Ten during that era
2003 - LSU over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2004 - USC over Oklahoma - future Big Ten member wins big
2005 - Texas over USC - classic SEC/Big Ten showdown here...
2006 - Florida over Ohio State - 41-14 loss
2007 - LSU over Ohio State - 38-24 loss
2008 - Florida over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2009 - Alabama over Texas - no Big Ten entrant
2010 - Auburn over Oregon - close loss for future Big Ten member
2011 - Alabama over LSU - no Big Ten entrant
2012 - Alabama over Notre Dame - no Big Ten entrant
2013 - Florida State over Auburn - no Big Ten entrant

I haven't looked at the old BCS bowl games and the showings might be a little better from that era, but I was trying to include games that included real stakes.

None of these facts matter, in FSU and Clemsons part of the country the BIG is not thought of to be on the SECs level. I would agree with you both the SEC is better and 99% of the south would too. And 99% of the south would not do any research it their god given right to know southern football is the best.

So if FSU or Clemson go to the BIG they will be considered a stepdown in their own neighborhood.

Southern schools have won 22 of the last 25 championships. The USC victory was vacated. Reggie Bush and apartments. While it's not happening, if Ohio State joined the SEC or ACC it would be 24 of the last 25 with one vacated. And in that vacated year Auburn (undefeated) was left out and had 3 or 4 #1 draft picks playing and 2 of those were top 10. It was the game that led Slive to push for the CFP.

And to Gitanole, Florida State makes plenty of money now. You are top 15 in revenue and have been top 10. Recruiting will suffer if you play a Big 10 schedule. Why? Not much interest from the fan base, and players parents will have a hard time with the commutes to games. Kids tend to want to play locally. NIL is impacting that, but a cleaned up NIL may not be as much of a factor. That is to be determined. But your fans will be impacted in travel to away games and that too will impact your donations and revenue. And should the SEC decide to play all games internally, and that is a very viable option since all the money stays in house and is more profitable than the OOC games where every two years you lose revenue on the away exchange, then FSU could find itself very limited on the schedule.

I find your argument good for leverage in a negotiation, but not much in reality. The real argument to persuade the SEC is market penetration by the Big 10 and its impact upon the SEC's ad rates and revenue. There's the argument for inclusion. And in my informed opinion, this is why Clemson, Florida State, and possibly Miami would be seen as essential additions for the integrity of the SEC control over the region extending from the Southern border of Kentucky and North Carolina and South.

As you know, I've been saying that I think FSU and Clemson are likely to the SEC.

That said, we also know that the Big10 seems to have the state of Florida as a priority.

So who knows.

One place I'll disagree with Bryan1996 above is that money talks. And a lot of money talks loudly : )

Is that always enough to change the outcome? No - just ask Notre Dame.

But it often does.

All that said, I ''still'' think it's likely that we'll see FSU and Clemson (and maybe NC and a friend) to the SEC, with Miami (and one or more friends) to the Big10.

I actually think all 4 of UNC, Miami, FSU and Clemson jump to the SEC, and we dare the B1G to grab some 2nd tier schools in response. The only one that gives me pause is CU, with the huge caveat that Deion is still there and still a sensation in 2031.

Using our established criteria, if we could both add schools today, here’s my top 4:

SEC:
1. FSU
2. Clemson
3. UNC
4. Miami

B1G:
1. UNC
2. Miami
3. CU
4. ASU

SHOULD the B1G consider FSU and Clemson? Absolutely. Would they? I think it’s a tossup, but for all 18 Presidents. They’d each get 9 enthusiastic “yes” votes and 9 “call us when you’re AAU” votes. UNC and Miami are close enough as Brands that they’d probably prefer those 2 anyway. But CU and ASU have work to do.

(09-30-2023 03:36 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 02:24 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 08:35 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 07:17 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's an interesting premise you've got. I think you make a fair point.

Even if you don't consider it from a national title perspective, generally speaking, the Big Ten representative in the CFP gets beat handily. Not always, but generally we're talking about entrants that aren't that competitive once given the opportunity.

I will always remember the two games Bama had against Michigan State during the Saban era. The first was at the end of the 2010 season. Bama had admittedly underachieved and lost 3 games that year. They played Michigan State in the Capital One Bowl and it was a thorough beatdown 49-7. MSU had been a top 10 team going into that game.

The other one I was actually present for, the Cotton Bowl during the 2015 season. 38-0 in the semifinals. It was just never competitive.

Looking at the CFP as a whole:

2014 - Ohio State national championship - best showing to date
2015 - aforementioned Michigan State loss
2016 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 31-0.
2017 - no entrant
2018 - no entrant
2019 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 29-23
2020 - Ohio State final loss to Alabama 52-24
2021 - Michigan semifinal loss to Georgia 34-11
2022 - Ohio State and Michigan get in, but neither make the final.

If you go back to the BCS era then you have:

1998 - Tennessee over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
1999 - Florida State over Virginia Tech - no Big Ten entrant
2000 - Oklahoma over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
2001 - Miami over Nebraska - 37-14 loss for the current Big Ten program
2002 - Ohio State over Miami - best showing for Big Ten during that era
2003 - LSU over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2004 - USC over Oklahoma - future Big Ten member wins big
2005 - Texas over USC - classic SEC/Big Ten showdown here...
2006 - Florida over Ohio State - 41-14 loss
2007 - LSU over Ohio State - 38-24 loss
2008 - Florida over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2009 - Alabama over Texas - no Big Ten entrant
2010 - Auburn over Oregon - close loss for future Big Ten member
2011 - Alabama over LSU - no Big Ten entrant
2012 - Alabama over Notre Dame - no Big Ten entrant
2013 - Florida State over Auburn - no Big Ten entrant

I haven't looked at the old BCS bowl games and the showings might be a little better from that era, but I was trying to include games that included real stakes.

None of these facts matter, in FSU and Clemsons part of the country the BIG is not thought of to be on the SECs level. I would agree with you both the SEC is better and 99% of the south would too. And 99% of the south would not do any research it their god given right to know southern football is the best.

So if FSU or Clemson go to the BIG they will be considered a stepdown in their own neighborhood.

Southern schools have won 22 of the last 25 championships. The USC victory was vacated. Reggie Bush and apartments. While it's not happening, if Ohio State joined the SEC or ACC it would be 24 of the last 25 with one vacated. And in that vacated year Auburn (undefeated) was left out and had 3 or 4 #1 draft picks playing and 2 of those were top 10. It was the game that led Slive to push for the CFP.

And to Gitanole, Florida State makes plenty of money now. You are top 15 in revenue and have been top 10. Recruiting will suffer if you play a Big 10 schedule. Why? Not much interest from the fan base, and players parents will have a hard time with the commutes to games. Kids tend to want to play locally. NIL is impacting that, but a cleaned up NIL may not be as much of a factor. That is to be determined. But your fans will be impacted in travel to away games and that too will impact your donations and revenue. And should the SEC decide to play all games internally, and that is a very viable option since all the money stays in house and is more profitable than the OOC games where every two years you lose revenue on the away exchange, then FSU could find itself very limited on the schedule.

I find your argument good for leverage in a negotiation, but not much in reality. The real argument to persuade the SEC is market penetration by the Big 10 and its impact upon the SEC's ad rates and revenue. There's the argument for inclusion. And in my informed opinion, this is why Clemson, Florida State, and possibly Miami would be seen as essential additions for the integrity of the SEC control over the region extending from the Southern border of Kentucky and North Carolina and South.

As you know, I've been saying that I think FSU and Clemson are likely to the SEC.

That said, we also know that the Big10 seems to have the state of Florida as a priority.

So who knows.

One place I'll disagree with Bryan1996 above is that money talks. And a lot of money talks loudly : )

Is that always enough to change the outcome? No - just ask Notre Dame.

But it often does.

All that said, I ''still'' think it's likely that we'll see FSU and Clemson (and maybe NC and a friend) to the SEC, with Miami (and one or more friends) to the Big10.

I actually think all 4 of UNC, Miami, FSU and Clemson jump to the SEC, and we dare the B1G to grab some 2nd tier schools in response. The only one that gives me pause is CU, with the huge caveat that Deion is still there and still a sensation in 2031.

Using our established criteria, if we could both add schools today, here’s my top 4:

SEC:
1. FSU
2. Clemson
3. UNC
4. Miami

B1G:
1. UNC
2. Miami
3. CU
4. ASU

SHOULD the B1G consider FSU and Clemson? Absolutely. Would they? I think it’s a tossup, but for all 18 Presidents. They’d each get 9 enthusiastic “yes” votes and 9 “call us when you’re AAU” votes. UNC and Miami are close enough as Brands that they’d probably prefer those 2 anyway. But CU and ASU have work to do.

This is the play for ESPN and the SEC to protect their advertising advantages in the region. If you assume the Big 10 response would be Duke, Virginia, Stanford and Notre Dame, then the SEC can also assume that 22 is likely for the Big 10. If their response is Stanford and Notre Dame there is no reason to expand further for the SEC.

In reality ESPN and the SEC should anticipate such a move.

If they did then perhaps this move is the strongest one to be made:
Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Miami, North Carolina, and Virginia from the ACC. Kansas from the Big 12. Then you have an opening that could induce Notre Dame, or choices between Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech, and Colorado. Colorado and Pitt for new markets. Georgia Tech to finish out the only remaining AAU school in the South that plays at the P5 level. Rice, Tulane and South Florida would the only AAU options left to the Big 10.

(09-30-2023 03:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 02:24 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 08:35 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 07:17 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's an interesting premise you've got. I think you make a fair point.

Even if you don't consider it from a national title perspective, generally speaking, the Big Ten representative in the CFP gets beat handily. Not always, but generally we're talking about entrants that aren't that competitive once given the opportunity.

I will always remember the two games Bama had against Michigan State during the Saban era. The first was at the end of the 2010 season. Bama had admittedly underachieved and lost 3 games that year. They played Michigan State in the Capital One Bowl and it was a thorough beatdown 49-7. MSU had been a top 10 team going into that game.

The other one I was actually present for, the Cotton Bowl during the 2015 season. 38-0 in the semifinals. It was just never competitive.

Looking at the CFP as a whole:

2014 - Ohio State national championship - best showing to date
2015 - aforementioned Michigan State loss
2016 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 31-0.
2017 - no entrant
2018 - no entrant
2019 - Ohio State semifinal loss to Clemson 29-23
2020 - Ohio State final loss to Alabama 52-24
2021 - Michigan semifinal loss to Georgia 34-11
2022 - Ohio State and Michigan get in, but neither make the final.

If you go back to the BCS era then you have:

1998 - Tennessee over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
1999 - Florida State over Virginia Tech - no Big Ten entrant
2000 - Oklahoma over Florida State - no Big Ten entrant
2001 - Miami over Nebraska - 37-14 loss for the current Big Ten program
2002 - Ohio State over Miami - best showing for Big Ten during that era
2003 - LSU over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2004 - USC over Oklahoma - future Big Ten member wins big
2005 - Texas over USC - classic SEC/Big Ten showdown here...
2006 - Florida over Ohio State - 41-14 loss
2007 - LSU over Ohio State - 38-24 loss
2008 - Florida over Oklahoma - no Big Ten entrant
2009 - Alabama over Texas - no Big Ten entrant
2010 - Auburn over Oregon - close loss for future Big Ten member
2011 - Alabama over LSU - no Big Ten entrant
2012 - Alabama over Notre Dame - no Big Ten entrant
2013 - Florida State over Auburn - no Big Ten entrant

I haven't looked at the old BCS bowl games and the showings might be a little better from that era, but I was trying to include games that included real stakes.

None of these facts matter, in FSU and Clemsons part of the country the BIG is not thought of to be on the SECs level. I would agree with you both the SEC is better and 99% of the south would too. And 99% of the south would not do any research it their god given right to know southern football is the best.

So if FSU or Clemson go to the BIG they will be considered a stepdown in their own neighborhood.

Southern schools have won 22 of the last 25 championships. The USC victory was vacated. Reggie Bush and apartments. While it's not happening, if Ohio State joined the SEC or ACC it would be 24 of the last 25 with one vacated. And in that vacated year Auburn (undefeated) was left out and had 3 or 4 #1 draft picks playing and 2 of those were top 10. It was the game that led Slive to push for the CFP.

And to Gitanole, Florida State makes plenty of money now. You are top 15 in revenue and have been top 10. Recruiting will suffer if you play a Big 10 schedule. Why? Not much interest from the fan base, and players parents will have a hard time with the commutes to games. Kids tend to want to play locally. NIL is impacting that, but a cleaned up NIL may not be as much of a factor. That is to be determined. But your fans will be impacted in travel to away games and that too will impact your donations and revenue. And should the SEC decide to play all games internally, and that is a very viable option since all the money stays in house and is more profitable than the OOC games where every two years you lose revenue on the away exchange, then FSU could find itself very limited on the schedule.

I find your argument good for leverage in a negotiation, but not much in reality. The real argument to persuade the SEC is market penetration by the Big 10 and its impact upon the SEC's ad rates and revenue. There's the argument for inclusion. And in my informed opinion, this is why Clemson, Florida State, and possibly Miami would be seen as essential additions for the integrity of the SEC control over the region extending from the Southern border of Kentucky and North Carolina and South.

As you know, I've been saying that I think FSU and Clemson are likely to the SEC.

That said, we also know that the Big10 seems to have the state of Florida as a priority.

So who knows.

One place I'll disagree with Bryan1996 above is that money talks. And a lot of money talks loudly : )

Is that always enough to change the outcome? No - just ask Notre Dame.

But it often does.

All that said, I ''still'' think it's likely that we'll see FSU and Clemson (and maybe NC and a friend) to the SEC, with Miami (and one or more friends) to the Big10.

Miami has friends? I would think it would be the number of retired people from the Northeast or with Big 10 connections that would make Miami palpable for the Big 10. Ditto Georgia Tech. Their alums are ACC/SEC but Atlanta has a lot of Big 10 alums. Duke draws heavily from the Northeast and from California. Add those 3 to N.D. and you might have a path. But friends?

rofl

Be wary of Miami fans with torches and pitchforks headed your way lol

Kidding aside, I understand why some don't think GT will ever get an invite back to the SEC. But I still think they would be a good fit there.

That said, the Big10 should add them in a heartbeat. Atlanta/Georgia market - A state that is growing in population. upper level academics, and yes, AAU.

I think Virginia, Duke, GT and Miami make an interesting 4-some for the Big10, and have said so for awhile now.

But, as I've mentioned before, if NC leaves, I could see ND using the ACC to rebuild a conference, in which case, they'd probably like Miami and GT to stay.

NC leaving would, I think, change the inner-political dynamics of the conference. So after that, I think anything could be possible.

And since we're talking about the SEC, after reading a lot of your (and others') posts here, and also reading a bunch of articles, I think the SEC would do very well adding FSU, Clemson, NC, and Louisville. For quite awhile I thought that #4 would be NC state or VT, but in the end, I think adding Louisville is the smarter move for the SEC (even with Kentucky having had concerns with the idea in the past).

So who knows.

(09-30-2023 02:01 PM)gwelymernans Wrote:  While I think the B1G would gladly offer an invite to FSU and Clemson, were they to free themselves of that pesky GoR in some manner, about the only way I see them accepting a B1G offer over an SEC offer is if ESPN ticks them off by opposing any effort to get out of the GoR or rejects a serious plan to transition them to the SEC prior to the early '30s when the GoR's end is in sight. Even then, it wouldn't be them rejecting the SEC or favoring the B1G, it would be them rejecting ESPN for perceived or real slights.

Well, rather than thinking in terms of 'slights,' it could simply happen that Fox Sports & Co offers help with a P2 call-up transition that ESPN has trouble rousing itself to match.

Fox currently gets nothing from ACC teams. Home games, away games... it all content for a competitor. Bringing an ACC team under its own tent is all gain for them.

For ESPN a P2 call-up means shifting the team from one ESPN channel to another. The immediate cost-benefit analysis is different.

(09-30-2023 09:51 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 01:12 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  The thread title assumes an unproven premise.

Clemson and Florida State intend to compete at the highest levels. This requires getting on the right side of the revenue gap. Either P2 destination can meet the need.

An obvious strong suit for the SEC is travel convenience and regional rivalries. This makes the SEC a preference of many local fans, but in reality not the 'only' choice. There's a 2 in P2.

Network competition (Fox vs Disney) plays a big role in P2 decisions. Much will depend on which network is willing to pay for what. We'll see.

Does it? Clemson has 2 very recent Titles despite their "revenue gap". FSU looks as good as anybody this year despite this "revenue gap". What's the difference between FSU's $160m revenue last year and A&M's $190m? It's certainly not helping my Aggies win more football games. We've had a lot bigger gap over Clemson than a mere $30m for most of the past decade, which, again, hasn't stopped Clemson from having so much success.

The "revenue gap" complaint is nothing more than a fundraising pitch to boosters and an excuse to push for more and more unequal revenue sharing from the ACC. Your school's actions make it clear that their top priority is winning Titles, as it should be, and your odds of winning titles in the future are higher as the co-top dogs in the ACC than as Ohio States little sister in the B1G.

The revenue gap exists, multiple sports exist, and the Florida State University athletic department intends to keep developing national champions across the board. It's an expensive undertaking but the university believes, based on experience, that the investment pays off in ways that benefit the entire university community. It already knows it can succeed.

Expect the university to choose collaborators accordingly.

Meanwhile, little sister Ohio State can try to keep up with the Seminoles.

(09-30-2023 04:10 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 03:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 02:24 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 12:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 08:35 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  None of these facts matter, in FSU and Clemsons part of the country the BIG is not thought of to be on the SECs level. I would agree with you both the SEC is better and 99% of the south would too. And 99% of the south would not do any research it their god given right to know southern football is the best.

So if FSU or Clemson go to the BIG they will be considered a stepdown in their own neighborhood.

Southern schools have won 22 of the last 25 championships. The USC victory was vacated. Reggie Bush and apartments. While it's not happening, if Ohio State joined the SEC or ACC it would be 24 of the last 25 with one vacated. And in that vacated year Auburn (undefeated) was left out and had 3 or 4 #1 draft picks playing and 2 of those were top 10. It was the game that led Slive to push for the CFP.

And to Gitanole, Florida State makes plenty of money now. You are top 15 in revenue and have been top 10. Recruiting will suffer if you play a Big 10 schedule. Why? Not much interest from the fan base, and players parents will have a hard time with the commutes to games. Kids tend to want to play locally. NIL is impacting that, but a cleaned up NIL may not be as much of a factor. That is to be determined. But your fans will be impacted in travel to away games and that too will impact your donations and revenue. And should the SEC decide to play all games internally, and that is a very viable option since all the money stays in house and is more profitable than the OOC games where every two years you lose revenue on the away exchange, then FSU could find itself very limited on the schedule.

I find your argument good for leverage in a negotiation, but not much in reality. The real argument to persuade the SEC is market penetration by the Big 10 and its impact upon the SEC's ad rates and revenue. There's the argument for inclusion. And in my informed opinion, this is why Clemson, Florida State, and possibly Miami would be seen as essential additions for the integrity of the SEC control over the region extending from the Southern border of Kentucky and North Carolina and South.

As you know, I've been saying that I think FSU and Clemson are likely to the SEC.

That said, we also know that the Big10 seems to have the state of Florida as a priority.

So who knows.

One place I'll disagree with Bryan1996 above is that money talks. And a lot of money talks loudly : )

Is that always enough to change the outcome? No - just ask Notre Dame.

But it often does.

All that said, I ''still'' think it's likely that we'll see FSU and Clemson (and maybe NC and a friend) to the SEC, with Miami (and one or more friends) to the Big10.

Miami has friends? I would think it would be the number of retired people from the Northeast or with Big 10 connections that would make Miami palpable for the Big 10. Ditto Georgia Tech. Their alums are ACC/SEC but Atlanta has a lot of Big 10 alums. Duke draws heavily from the Northeast and from California. Add those 3 to N.D. and you might have a path. But friends?

rofl

Be wary of Miami fans with torches and pitchforks headed your way lol

Kidding aside, I understand why some don't think GT will ever get an invite back to the SEC. But I still think they would be a good fit there.

That said, the Big10 should add them in a heartbeat. Atlanta/Georgia market - A state that is growing in population. upper level academics, and yes, AAU.

I think Virginia, Duke, GT and Miami make an interesting 4-some for the Big10, and have said so for awhile now.

But, as I've mentioned before, if NC leaves, I could see ND using the ACC to rebuild a conference, in which case, they'd probably like Miami and GT to stay.

NC leaving would, I think, change the inner-political dynamics of the conference. So after that, I think anything could be possible.

And since we're talking about the SEC, after reading a lot of your (and others') posts here, and also reading a bunch of articles, I think the SEC would do very well adding FSU, Clemson, NC, and Louisville. For quite awhile I thought that #4 would be NC state or VT, but in the end, I think adding Louisville is the smarter move for the SEC (even with Kentucky having had concerns with the idea in the past).

So who knows.

Louisville to the SEC has some reasons to think about at least. Their revenues are greater than any team outside of the P2 and the Big 3 in the ACC, and they're in fact greater than quite a few P2 schools, too. They're excellent (usually, and will be again) in basketball, and pretty darned good in football, too. My issue with them, however, is that Miami is just far more desirable, and several of the others, while behind Louisville in revenues, are better in football or are Flagships or Flaghip/AAU even.

Louisville is good, and they'd be able to thrive in the SEC, but I think that they're more in the ASU or CU category...interesting if we go to 24 or 28, but not getting a 2nd glance if we stop at 18 or 20.

The B1G won't take Clemson or FSU - no AAU

The SEC won't take them - they have been pretty clear they have no interest in expanding right now

And... when ACC goes belly-up -

Why take FSU when you can take Miami?

They are never going anywhere but the B12

(09-30-2023 09:43 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B1G won't take Clemson or FSU - no AAU

The SEC won't take them - they have been pretty clear they have no interest in expanding right now

And... when ACC goes belly-up -

Why take FSU when you can take Miami?

They are never going anywhere but the B12

It's not too late for you, help is available:

https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline

(09-30-2023 09:43 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  And... when ACC goes belly-up -

Why take FSU when you can take Miami?

Not...sure...if...serious...

(09-30-2023 09:43 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B1G won't take Clemson or FSU - no AAU

The SEC won't take them - they have been pretty clear they have no interest in expanding right now

And... when ACC goes belly-up -

Why take FSU when you can take Miami?

They are never going anywhere but the B12

The SEC is lying. Didnt the B1G say they were done and then proceeded to expand with UW and Oregon?

(09-30-2023 04:10 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  ... Be wary of Miami fans with torches and pitchforks headed your way lol ...

That would actually be less dangerous than if one had a torch and the other one had a pitchfork. Both Miami fans with a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other is a bit awkward and overloaded.

_________

(09-30-2023 09:43 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B1G won't take Clemson or FSU - no AAU ...

If ACC conference realignment takes until the 2030's to roll out, AAU might come for FSU.

Quote:...
The SEC won't take them - they have been pretty clear they have no interest in expanding right now
...

Nothing drives out lack of interest in expanding quite so much as schools becoming available which for one or another reason are strongly desired by a number of your schools.

Quote: ...
And... when ACC goes belly-up -

Why take FSU when you can take Miami? ...

Because they have been a better football school and are much more popular in the part of Florida that is actually a part of the Southeast.

(10-01-2023 10:25 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 04:10 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  ... Be wary of Miami fans with torches and pitchforks headed your way lol ...

That would actually be less dangerous than if one had a torch and the other one had a pitchfork. Both Miami fans with a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other is a bit awkward and overloaded.

Yeah, I mean, what if you got the torch too close to your pitchfork and lit it on fire? Or your neighbor's pitchfork? Miami, as you all know, is a densely populated Urban agglomeration, any use of fire should probably be severely restricted. Can they use something safer, like, I dunno, sharks with laser beams?

(10-01-2023 10:30 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(10-01-2023 10:25 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-30-2023 04:10 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  ... Be wary of Miami fans with torches and pitchforks headed your way lol ...

That would actually be less dangerous than if one had a torch and the other one had a pitchfork. Both Miami fans with a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other is a bit awkward and overloaded.

Yeah, I mean, what if you got the torch too close to your pitchfork and lit it on fire? Or your neighbor's pitchfork? Miami, as you all know, is a densely populated Urban agglomeration, any use of fire should probably be severely restricted. Can they use something safer, like, I dunno, sharks with laser beams?

If they can talk their antagonist onto a yacht, they might use killer whales.

ESPN finds itself in a new and vulnerable position moving forward..........no B1G content.

It's one of the reasons that ESPN opted for 2/3 of the Big 12 content, so that they wouldn't run out of football content.

Basketball is going to require a different strategy.

Presently the best and most effective way for ESPN to keep the B1G from dipping down into the solid South is a healthy and stable ACC.