(04-01-2021 02:58 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news...plans.html

Hope Leebron means diversity of thought because campus doesn’t have much of that.

Even though Rice in the mid-60's was not at all diverse in the modern sense, I thought it was very diverse in terms of thought and experience. Kids from all over the world, and of every political bent or none at all.

(04-02-2021 09:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 02:58 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news...plans.html

Hope Leebron means diversity of thought because campus doesn’t have much of that.

Even though Rice in the mid-60's was not at all diverse in the modern sense, I thought it was very diverse in terms of thought and experience. Kids from all over the world, and of every political bent or none at all.

??? You have a very odd definition of diversity. Back in the mid-60s Rice was over 80% male, over 75% from Texas and virtually no one of color. Not sure how "very diverse" in terms of thought and experience one can have with that demographic makeup.

(04-02-2021 09:37 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 02:58 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news...plans.html

Hope Leebron means diversity of thought because campus doesn’t have much of that.

Even though Rice in the mid-60's was not at all diverse in the modern sense, I thought it was very diverse in terms of thought and experience. Kids from all over the world, and of every political bent or none at all.

??? You have a very odd definition of diversity. Back in the mid-60s Rice was over 80% male, over 75% from Texas and virtually no one of color. Not sure how "very diverse" in terms of thought and experience one can have with that demographic makeup.

White males all think alike?

(04-02-2021 09:37 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 02:58 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news...plans.html

Hope Leebron means diversity of thought because campus doesn’t have much of that.

Even though Rice in the mid-60's was not at all diverse in the modern sense, I thought it was very diverse in terms of thought and experience. Kids from all over the world, and of every political bent or none at all.

??? You have a very odd definition of diversity. Back in the mid-60s Rice was over 80% male, over 75% from Texas and virtually no one of color. Not sure how "very diverse" in terms of thought and experience one can have with that demographic makeup.

Walt, IMO you are the one with the odd definition, although it may well be a majority opinion in this odd world we live in.

Like I said in the opening sentence, it was not diverse in the modern sense. But I, from small town Texas, was exposed to a wide variety of experiences in my fellow students - kids who had lived in Panama, France, Norway, an English Lord, a monarchist, a socialist, for example - all white males.

As I said, it was diverse in terms of thought and experience, not race or skin color. I remain convinced that the diversity of thought and experience brought to Rice by one white male from Croatia or Austria is more than the 20th black female from Bellaire.

(04-02-2021 09:51 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:37 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 02:58 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news...plans.html

Hope Leebron means diversity of thought because campus doesn’t have much of that.

Even though Rice in the mid-60's was not at all diverse in the modern sense, I thought it was very diverse in terms of thought and experience. Kids from all over the world, and of every political bent or none at all.

??? You have a very odd definition of diversity. Back in the mid-60s Rice was over 80% male, over 75% from Texas and virtually no one of color. Not sure how "very diverse" in terms of thought and experience one can have with that demographic makeup.

Walt, IMO you are the one with the odd definition, although it may well be a majority opinion in this odd world we live in.

Like I said in the opening sentence, it was not diverse in the modern sense. But I, from small town Texas, was exposed to a wide variety of experiences in my fellow students - kids who had lived in Panama, France, Norway, an English Lord, a monarchist, a socialist, for example - all white males.

As I said, it was diverse in terms of thought and experience, not race or skin color. I remain convinced that the diversity pf thought and experience brought to Rice by one white male from Croatia or Austria is more than the 20th black female from Bellaire.

International students made up less than 5% of the Rice student base in the mid-1960s, and many of them were grad students, not undergrads.

I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

(04-02-2021 09:57 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:51 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:37 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 02:58 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news...plans.html

Hope Leebron means diversity of thought because campus doesn’t have much of that.

Even though Rice in the mid-60's was not at all diverse in the modern sense, I thought it was very diverse in terms of thought and experience. Kids from all over the world, and of every political bent or none at all.

??? You have a very odd definition of diversity. Back in the mid-60s Rice was over 80% male, over 75% from Texas and virtually no one of color. Not sure how "very diverse" in terms of thought and experience one can have with that demographic makeup.

Walt, IMO you are the one with the odd definition, although it may well be a majority opinion in this odd world we live in.

Like I said in the opening sentence, it was not diverse in the modern sense. But I, from small town Texas, was exposed to a wide variety of experiences in my fellow students - kids who had lived in Panama, France, Norway, an English Lord, a monarchist, a socialist, for example - all white males.

As I said, it was diverse in terms of thought and experience, not race or skin color. I remain convinced that the diversity pf thought and experience brought to Rice by one white male from Croatia or Austria is more than the 20th black female from Bellaire.

International students made up less than 5% of the Rice student base in the mid-1960s, and many of them were grad students, not undergrads.

Well, I am not lying, Walt. I knew all these people. They were all freshmen in my class, the class of '67, except the English Lord, who came a year later.

Even as a wide-eyed undergrad in the mid-60's, I felt that I experienced much more diversity of thought and experience at Rice than I would have at TCU or UT. One of the things that made me glad to be at Rice.

I think diversity is much more than just race. JMHO. Others may prefer to grade diversity on just race. That is their prerogative.

(04-02-2021 10:01 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

As Thomas Sowell has said, "The next time some academics tell you how important diversity is, ask how many Republicans there are in their sociology department."

(04-02-2021 10:08 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:01 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

I think the issue is there was a stated initiative put in place to increase students from PRC (and I think at the time develop a relationship with an academic institution there), but far from novel this has morphed into a recruit full tuition students scheme at many universities. It would be novel to target Sub-Sahara Africa or Latin America or at least get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie. But we now pretty much look like we're using the same not so original playbook as the masses.

(04-02-2021 11:47 AM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:08 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:01 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

I think the issue is there was a stated initiative put in place to increase students from PRC (and I think at the time develop a relationship with an academic institution there), but far from novel this has morphed into a recruit full tuition students scheme at many universities. It would be novel to target Sub-Sahara Africa or Latin America or at least get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie. But we now pretty much look like we're using the same not so original playbook as the masses.

So less, see less Chinese students, and more increase recruiting from other international locals?

(04-02-2021 11:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:47 AM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:08 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:01 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

I think the issue is there was a stated initiative put in place to increase students from PRC (and I think at the time develop a relationship with an academic institution there), but far from novel this has morphed into a recruit full tuition students scheme at many universities. It would be novel to target Sub-Sahara Africa or Latin America or at least get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie. But we now pretty much look like we're using the same not so original playbook as the masses.

So less, see less Chinese students, and more increase recruiting from other international locals?

I mean I don't have any particular dog in the fight - you had asked about applications - it would make sense that the place you targeted would generate more applications.

(04-02-2021 11:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:47 AM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:08 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:01 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

I think the issue is there was a stated initiative put in place to increase students from PRC (and I think at the time develop a relationship with an academic institution there), but far from novel this has morphed into a recruit full tuition students scheme at many universities. It would be novel to target Sub-Sahara Africa or Latin America or at least get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie. But we now pretty much look like we're using the same not so original playbook as the masses.

So less, see less Chinese students, and more increase recruiting from other international locals?

Yes-and in the case that there aren't enough qualified, interested international students, I'd recommend that we accept more from the USA.

At this point, the amount of PRC students at our universities is a national security issue IMO.

However, those who are against Asian students in general (like the poster who rejected "yellow" students) are motivated by racism.

(04-02-2021 12:07 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:47 AM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:08 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:01 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

I think the issue is there was a stated initiative put in place to increase students from PRC (and I think at the time develop a relationship with an academic institution there), but far from novel this has morphed into a recruit full tuition students scheme at many universities. It would be novel to target Sub-Sahara Africa or Latin America or at least get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie. But we now pretty much look like we're using the same not so original playbook as the masses.

So less, see less Chinese students, and more increase recruiting from other international locals?

Yes-and in the case that there aren't enough qualified, interested international students, I'd recommend that we accept more from the USA.

At this point, the amount of PRC students at our universities is a national security issue IMO.

However, those who are against Asian students in general (like the poster who rejected "yellow" students) are motivated by racism.

A prominent member of the UT faculty faced backlash from the PRC coalition of students last year. He made a comment at the beginning of Covid that if China wants to be seen as a leader of the world they should let the world in to investigate and not suppress data. A majority of the Chinese students (a large portion of tuition) immediately went to the CCP playbook for suppressing dissent. They laughably called his comments racist etc (he’s AA with a Chinese wife). The admin went into damage control and made him apologize. That wasn’t enough for the CCP playbook though. Certain students pushed for a resignation and told potential incoming students to not apply. To UT’s credit they didn’t/couldn’t force the professor out over the issue and he’s still teaching today. Due to Covid visa restrictions the Chinese admissions numbers went way down but it will be interesting to see if they rebound.

Certainly not all, but most of the Chinese students here are extremely wealthy and to get that way you have to be in good standing with the CCP. Take your conclusions from there...

(04-02-2021 11:47 AM)mebehutchi Wrote:  It would be novel to . . . get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie.

While we're at it, lacrosse talent from Canada! :)

(04-02-2021 12:07 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:47 AM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:08 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:01 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

I think the issue is there was a stated initiative put in place to increase students from PRC (and I think at the time develop a relationship with an academic institution there), but far from novel this has morphed into a recruit full tuition students scheme at many universities. It would be novel to target Sub-Sahara Africa or Latin America or at least get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie. But we now pretty much look like we're using the same not so original playbook as the masses.

So less, see less Chinese students, and more increase recruiting from other international locals?

Yes-and in the case that there aren't enough qualified, interested international students, I'd recommend that we accept more from the USA.

At this point, the amount of PRC students at our universities is a national security issue IMO.

However, those who are against Asian students in general (like the poster who rejected "yellow" students) are motivated by racism.

My understanding is that the first statement is backwards when it comes to grad students. The US is falling woefully behind in the quality of students being produced that go on to get Masters and PhD's. The people I know in academia note how infrequently they identify quality students in post-graduate programs that come from US institutions.

Do we see the same issue in undergrad students? Not sure. But I don't think we're seeing international students of low quality being admitted (or at least I don't think we saw that during my time at Rice).

Do we still put significant resources into recruiting Chinese students? I think it made sense in the early 2000s/2010s when US universities wanted to gain a toe hold to a rapidly expanding middle class from a country that values education. But I do wonder if investing in active recruiting makes as much sense.

(04-02-2021 12:05 PM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:47 AM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:08 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:01 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I don’t have an issue with international students at Rice, I’d just like to see less of them from the PRC.

What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

I think the issue is there was a stated initiative put in place to increase students from PRC (and I think at the time develop a relationship with an academic institution there), but far from novel this has morphed into a recruit full tuition students scheme at many universities. It would be novel to target Sub-Sahara Africa or Latin America or at least get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie. But we now pretty much look like we're using the same not so original playbook as the masses.

So less, see less Chinese students, and more increase recruiting from other international locals?

I mean I don't have any particular dog in the fight - you had asked about applications - it would make sense that the place you targeted would generate more applications.

But my overall point was, is Rice rejecting or ignoring qualified individuals that want to come to Rice?

Are there enough students in countries X, Y, and Z that are talented and want to come to the US that it makes sense to target them? As I said, my experience is that Rice doesn't really fill a void for a large swath of high quality post-graduate students in engineering from most (if not all) of western Europe.

Now that's a limited segment of academia, and a limited segment of the world, but it gets to what I'm talking about. For undergrad, MS's, and PhD's, we cannot sacrifice quality of student, and do we think there are untapped markets for those elsewhere?

Undergrad is the one area where we clearly could just replace any international students, across the board, with high quality domestic students. And I think there could be a benefit in that. For graduate degrees? I'm less convinced we could fill the void.

(04-02-2021 12:37 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
Undergrad is the one area where we clearly could just replace any international students, across the board, with high quality domestic students. And I think there could be a benefit in that. For graduate degrees? I'm less convinced we could fill the void.

Except for tennis? 8/8 on the women's team are foreigners, and 4/10 on the men's team.

(04-02-2021 12:54 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 12:37 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
Undergrad is the one area where we clearly could just replace any international students, across the board, with high quality domestic students. And I think there could be a benefit in that. For graduate degrees? I'm less convinced we could fill the void.

Except for tennis? 8/8 on the women's team are foreigners, and 4/10 on the men's team.

I was solely talking about from an academic perspective.

(04-02-2021 12:37 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 12:05 PM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 11:47 AM)mebehutchi Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 10:08 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  What sort of applications are we seeing from other countries, both at Rice and at peer institutions?

Are there a massive amount of high-quality students from other countries that want to come to the US, but can't get accepted?

Frankly, in the field I'm most adjacent to (civil/environmental engineering), the foreign grad students from Europe that I know are getting high-quality post-grad degrees in their home countries and don't have a major desire to do a PhD in the US. That is very much Dutch/German/French focused and in one field, but still.

Do we see other nationalities banging and the gates that we aren't letting in?

I think the issue is there was a stated initiative put in place to increase students from PRC (and I think at the time develop a relationship with an academic institution there), but far from novel this has morphed into a recruit full tuition students scheme at many universities. It would be novel to target Sub-Sahara Africa or Latin America or at least get us some rugby talent from NZ and Aussie. But we now pretty much look like we're using the same not so original playbook as the masses.

So less, see less Chinese students, and more increase recruiting from other international locals?

I mean I don't have any particular dog in the fight - you had asked about applications - it would make sense that the place you targeted would generate more applications.

But my overall point was, is Rice rejecting or ignoring qualified individuals that want to come to Rice?

Are there enough students in countries X, Y, and Z that are talented and want to come to the US that it makes sense to target them? As I said, my experience is that Rice doesn't really fill a void for a large swath of high quality post-graduate students in engineering from most (if not all) of western Europe.

Now that's a limited segment of academia, and a limited segment of the world, but it gets to what I'm talking about. For undergrad, MS's, and PhD's, we cannot sacrifice quality of student, and do we think there are untapped markets for those elsewhere?

Undergrad is the one area where we clearly could just replace any international students, across the board, with high quality domestic students. And I think there could be a benefit in that. For graduate degrees? I'm less convinced we could fill the void.

To your point-I can't speak to the graduate programs-but I do feel fairly sure in saying that we can replace PRC undergraduate students with equal quality students, either of domestic or international (non-PRC) origin.