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We All Knew It Was Coming
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AppinVA Offline
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Post: #41
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
I'm sure App will sign to play Liberty sometime in the future, and I'm okay with that.
12-23-2017 11:37 AM
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OsageJ Offline
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Post: #42
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
One thing is a given. If a thread mentions Liberty you know it won't be about sports. I wonder what it would be like if if it was. Well....merry Christmas and peace on earth.....Lol...Yeah right.
12-23-2017 11:37 AM
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Yosef Himself Offline
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Post: #43
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
I'll talk about their sports. They're lower tier. Out of the FCS schools worthy of moving up they'd not be in the top 10. For the rest of their sports, they're not as good as their FB team. A hypothetical invite to the Sin Belt is something I hope never comes

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12-23-2017 11:43 AM
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OsageJ Offline
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RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 11:37 AM)AppinVA Wrote:  I'm sure App will sign to play Liberty sometime in the future, and I'm okay with that.

If they come over here fine. It's football. Lace 'em up
12-23-2017 11:45 AM
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OsageJ Offline
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Post: #45
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 11:43 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  I'll talk about their sports. They're lower tier. Out of the FCS schools worthy of moving up they'd not be in the top 10. For the rest of their sports, they're not as good as their FB team. A hypothetical invite to the Sin Belt is something I hope never comes

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That's true. Athletically that have not shown they belong with us. Yet.
12-23-2017 11:47 AM
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CoastalAlum2011 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 11:43 AM)Yosef Himself Wrote:  I'll talk about their sports. They're lower tier. Out of the FCS schools worthy of moving up they'd not be in the top 10. For the rest of their sports, they're not as good as their FB team. A hypothetical invite to the Sin Belt is something I hope never comes

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See. This is why we didn't want them.

How could the Sin Belt accept a school like that?
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2017 11:48 AM by CoastalAlum2011.)
12-23-2017 11:47 AM
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CoachWillRob Offline
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Post: #47
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 08:57 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  
(12-22-2017 11:06 PM)HighlandsApp Wrote:  
(12-22-2017 05:38 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  
(12-22-2017 11:45 AM)HighCountry Wrote:  Classic team meteor game for me, especially since Liberty doesn't think the Earth is old enough to have had disastrous asteroidal impacts. 05-stirthepot
Geez can we please leave politics out of it and see it for what it is. A football game. Some of you guys will jump on any opportunity to grind an ax.

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None of the jabs are anything remotely close to politics; it’s ridiculing a hypocritical cult.

Please explain what you mean by a "hypocritical cult".

Don't you know???Someone who disagrees or has an apposing point of view then the left,?
But be careful, because if YOU aren't tolerant, you may be thrown into a bowl of deplorables ... haha
12-23-2017 11:52 AM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #48
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 11:35 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Liberty is a private university and for home and homes no money is exchanged at the G5 level. Actually in some cases Liberty is paying G5 programs for these.

Signing these home and home isn’t an attack on any group of people, claiming such is quite stretch even by today’s standards.

It still involves the G5 program excluding a significant portion of their students and fans from the benefits of their programs. Schedule Liberty and you will be making a conscious decision to affirm the exclusion of non-Christians, LGBT persons, etc. from your program's. Its a full throated affirmation of Liberty's policies. Full stop.

It might be different if the ADs and football programs were doing ANYTHING to compensate for this. They aren't. How many LGBT or even non-Christian coaches make those high AD salaries? How many players get scholarships? How is the University equalizing funding for football.

None of our programs have EVER had an openly LGBT player or coach in FBS. Have any of our programs ever had so much as an openly LGBT player in ANY of our prominent team sports? How about Jews or openly Athiests? You might find a very small percentage at our schools. USA actually had a Jewish basketball coach, but that was a very rare situation. But then again, USA isn't scheduling Liberty.

Again, what do LGBT persons, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, the non-Religious, the non-American born, get from their Athletic Departments for the millions they take from us EVERY single year at EVERY single one of our institutions? Apparently, they get the University to spend millions on a party they aren't invited to.
12-23-2017 11:52 AM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 11:45 AM)OsageJ Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 11:37 AM)AppinVA Wrote:  I'm sure App will sign to play Liberty sometime in the future, and I'm okay with that.

If they come over here fine. It's football. Lace 'em up

For free? Are you saying your students pay Liberty's discriminatory athletic program with their student fees and taxes?
12-23-2017 11:54 AM
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Saint3333 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
Wow, this is a war against all those groups? Hard stop - life’s too short to make everything political.

Have a Merry Christmas.
12-23-2017 12:05 PM
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CoachWillRob Offline
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Post: #51
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 11:52 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 11:35 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Liberty is a private university and for home and homes no money is exchanged at the G5 level. Actually in some cases Liberty is paying G5 programs for these.

Signing these home and home isn’t an attack on any group of people, claiming such is quite stretch even by today’s standards.

It still involves the G5 program excluding a significant portion of their students and fans from the benefits of their programs. Schedule Liberty and you will be making a conscious decision to affirm the exclusion of non-Christians, LGBT persons, etc. from your program's. Its a full throated affirmation of Liberty's policies. Full stop.

It might be different if the ADs and football programs were doing ANYTHING to compensate for this. They aren't. How many LGBT or even non-Christian coaches make those high AD salaries? How many players get scholarships? How is the University equalizing funding for football.

None of our programs have EVER had an openly LGBT player or coach in FBS. Have any of our programs ever had so much as an openly LGBT player in ANY of our prominent team sports? How about Jews or openly Athiests? You might find a very small percentage at our schools. USA actually had a Jewish basketball coach, but that was a very rare situation. But then again, USA isn't scheduling Liberty.

Again, what do LGBT persons, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, the non-Religious, the non-American born, get from their Athletic Departments for the millions they take from us EVERY single year at EVERY single one of our institutions? Apparently, they get the University to spend millions on a party they aren't invited to.

You're right!!! We should force them into believing something different then what they believe! They don't have the freedom to make any decisions that express their beliefs. How dare they make a political stand that's faith based. They're committing the ultimate political correctness sin, and since someone has made us the moral authority, we should do everything in our power to put down, bully, protest, and intimidate these people till they become tolerant of what I say they should be tolerant of. It's time we take control and not allow ANY of these opposing beliefs in our society!!!

Oh, and Merry Christmas! :)
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2017 12:13 PM by CoachWillRob.)
12-23-2017 12:11 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 12:05 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Wow, this is a war against all those groups? Hard stop - life’s too short to make everything political.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Easy for you to say, if you aren't being discriminated against. And your community isn't paying millions per year to have discrimination against you be furthered.

Maybe if Liberty didn't make everything political and attacking on everyone else, they wouldn't be such a lightening rod. Everything they do is political. Affirm them and affirm their political agenda.

I repeat my question....for the millions of dollars each year that LGBT people, non-Christians, the foreign born, etc. spend to subsidize your program.....what do THEY get in return for that non-voluntary payment? At Georgia Southern and Troy, they get to see that money used to affirm even MORE discrimination against them.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2017 12:17 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
12-23-2017 12:16 PM
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OsageJ Offline
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Post: #53
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
Wow and here I thought Liberty was in Lynchburg.....THEY ARE TAKING THE WOOOORRRRRRLLLLDDDD.
12-23-2017 12:21 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 12:21 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Wow and here I thought Liberty was in Lynchburg.....THEY ARE TAKING THE WOOOORRRRRRLLLLDDDD.

The discrimination they support is at all of our schools. To be clear, our schools do it on the down low, but it certainly exists. How many openly LGBT people has Arkansas State ever had on a full athletic scholarship or as a coach in any of your sports. Can you name even ONE?

Validating discrimination at Liberty validates it everywhere, especially if there's no evidence of any better results at any of our institutions.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2017 12:27 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
12-23-2017 12:22 PM
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OsageJ Offline
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RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 12:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:05 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Wow, this is a war against all those groups? Hard stop - life’s too short to make everything political.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Easy for you to say, if you aren't being discriminated against. And your community isn't paying millions per year to have discrimination against you be furthered.

Maybe if Liberty didn't make everything political and attacking on everyone else, they wouldn't be such a lightening rod. Everything they do is political. Affirm them and affirm their political agenda.

I repeat my question....for the millions of dollars each year that LGBT people, non-Christians, the foreign born, etc. spend to subsidize your program.....what do THEY get in return for that non-voluntary payment? At Georgia Southern and Troy, they get to see that money used to affirm even MORE discrimination against them.

Dude you really should get together some of your friends go over there and shut them down....
12-23-2017 12:23 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 12:23 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:05 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Wow, this is a war against all those groups? Hard stop - life’s too short to make everything political.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Easy for you to say, if you aren't being discriminated against. And your community isn't paying millions per year to have discrimination against you be furthered.

Maybe if Liberty didn't make everything political and attacking on everyone else, they wouldn't be such a lightening rod. Everything they do is political. Affirm them and affirm their political agenda.

I repeat my question....for the millions of dollars each year that LGBT people, non-Christians, the foreign born, etc. spend to subsidize your program.....what do THEY get in return for that non-voluntary payment? At Georgia Southern and Troy, they get to see that money used to affirm even MORE discrimination against them.

Dude you really should get together some of your friends go over there and shut them down....

What's more likely to happen is that when people come for your program, that instead of unanimity from your students, alumni and fans to support the program...that there will be significant portions of your community that say "meh - means nothing to me and its too expensive, no point of keeping up the expense".

Our students largely DON'T show up at our football games.

----

Lets look at two schools that recently had attempts to shut down their programs. At UAB, the attack wasn't so much about athletics but about academic concerns. The whole community banded together and saved the program. At Idaho, few cared because it was just about a program that most people could have cared less about.

---

There's another funding crisis coming. Rather than trying to troll the people you'll need on board when it hits, it might be a better plan to simply work to earn the support and buy-in of groups that you'll probably need in about 5 or 6 years.
12-23-2017 12:35 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 12:11 PM)CoachWillRob Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 11:52 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 11:35 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Liberty is a private university and for home and homes no money is exchanged at the G5 level. Actually in some cases Liberty is paying G5 programs for these.

Signing these home and home isn’t an attack on any group of people, claiming such is quite stretch even by today’s standards.

It still involves the G5 program excluding a significant portion of their students and fans from the benefits of their programs. Schedule Liberty and you will be making a conscious decision to affirm the exclusion of non-Christians, LGBT persons, etc. from your program's. Its a full throated affirmation of Liberty's policies. Full stop.

It might be different if the ADs and football programs were doing ANYTHING to compensate for this. They aren't. How many LGBT or even non-Christian coaches make those high AD salaries? How many players get scholarships? How is the University equalizing funding for football.

None of our programs have EVER had an openly LGBT player or coach in FBS. Have any of our programs ever had so much as an openly LGBT player in ANY of our prominent team sports? How about Jews or openly Athiests? You might find a very small percentage at our schools. USA actually had a Jewish basketball coach, but that was a very rare situation. But then again, USA isn't scheduling Liberty.

Again, what do LGBT persons, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, the non-Religious, the non-American born, get from their Athletic Departments for the millions they take from us EVERY single year at EVERY single one of our institutions? Apparently, they get the University to spend millions on a party they aren't invited to.

You're right!!! We should force them into believing something different then what they believe! They don't have the freedom to make any decisions that express their beliefs. How dare they make a political stand that's faith based. They're committing the ultimate political correctness sin, and since someone has made us the moral authority, we should do everything in our power to put down, bully, protest, and intimidate these people till they become tolerant of what I say they should be tolerant of. It's time we take control and not allow ANY of these opposing beliefs in our society!!!

Oh, and Merry Christmas! :)

There's a HUGE difference between someone having offensive beliefs like "Gays and Jews shouldn't have equal access to employment and scholarship opportunities" and having taxpayer funded programs helping programs that further that agenda.

How much does your football program take from the taxpayers and students? How many scholarships have you ever provided to LGBT people from that pool of money? How many coaching jobs have been paid from that?
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2017 12:44 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
12-23-2017 12:43 PM
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OsageJ Offline
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Post: #58
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 12:35 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:23 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:05 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Wow, this is a war against all those groups? Hard stop - life’s too short to make everything political.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Easy for you to say, if you aren't being discriminated against. And your community isn't paying millions per year to have discrimination against you be furthered.

Maybe if Liberty didn't make everything political and attacking on everyone else, they wouldn't be such a lightening rod. Everything they do is political. Affirm them and affirm their political agenda.

I repeat my question....for the millions of dollars each year that LGBT people, non-Christians, the foreign born, etc. spend to subsidize your program.....what do THEY get in return for that non-voluntary payment? At Georgia Southern and Troy, they get to see that money used to affirm even MORE discrimination against them.

Dude you really should get together some of your friends go over there and shut them down....

What's more likely to happen is that when people come for your program, that instead of unanimity from your students, alumni and fans to support the program...that there will be significant portions of your community that say "meh - means nothing to me and its too expensive, no point of keeping up the expense".

Our students largely DON'T show up at our football games.

----

Lets look at two schools that recently had attempts to shut down their programs. At UAB, the attack wasn't so much about athletics but about academic concerns. The whole community banded together and saved the program. At Idaho, few cared because it was just about a program that most people could have cared less about.

---

There's another funding crisis coming. Rather than trying to troll the people you'll need on board when it hits, it might be a better plan to simply work to earn the support and buy-in of groups that you'll probably need in about 5 or 6 years.

Ok..sure. sure.
12-23-2017 12:43 PM
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CoastalAlum2011 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 12:43 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:11 PM)CoachWillRob Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 11:52 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 11:35 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Liberty is a private university and for home and homes no money is exchanged at the G5 level. Actually in some cases Liberty is paying G5 programs for these.

Signing these home and home isn’t an attack on any group of people, claiming such is quite stretch even by today’s standards.

It still involves the G5 program excluding a significant portion of their students and fans from the benefits of their programs. Schedule Liberty and you will be making a conscious decision to affirm the exclusion of non-Christians, LGBT persons, etc. from your program's. Its a full throated affirmation of Liberty's policies. Full stop.

It might be different if the ADs and football programs were doing ANYTHING to compensate for this. They aren't. How many LGBT or even non-Christian coaches make those high AD salaries? How many players get scholarships? How is the University equalizing funding for football.

None of our programs have EVER had an openly LGBT player or coach in FBS. Have any of our programs ever had so much as an openly LGBT player in ANY of our prominent team sports? How about Jews or openly Athiests? You might find a very small percentage at our schools. USA actually had a Jewish basketball coach, but that was a very rare situation. But then again, USA isn't scheduling Liberty.

Again, what do LGBT persons, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, the non-Religious, the non-American born, get from their Athletic Departments for the millions they take from us EVERY single year at EVERY single one of our institutions? Apparently, they get the University to spend millions on a party they aren't invited to.

You're right!!! We should force them into believing something different then what they believe! They don't have the freedom to make any decisions that express their beliefs. How dare they make a political stand that's faith based. They're committing the ultimate political correctness sin, and since someone has made us the moral authority, we should do everything in our power to put down, bully, protest, and intimidate these people till they become tolerant of what I say they should be tolerant of. It's time we take control and not allow ANY of these opposing beliefs in our society!!!

Oh, and Merry Christmas! :)

There's a HUGE difference between someone having offensive beliefs like "Gays and Jews shouldn't have equal access to employment and scholarship opportunities" and having taxpayer funded programs helping programs that further that agenda.

How much does your football program take from the taxpayers and students? How many scholarships have you ever provided to LGBT people from that pool of money? How many coaching jobs have been paid from that?

I do truly hate Liberty but for different reasons than most. I'm a born again Christian. I believe Jesus was the son of God and I try my best to live my life according to His example though I often fail. I only share that about myself because I think it makes my perspective more transparent.

I hate Liberty because I believe their hypocrisy paints a picture of christianity that's a false one and leads people away from the truth. The most recent glaring example of this is their love affair with Donald Trump. Liberty is Christian in name only. They're a republican university, not a Christian one.

So, now that you know my general feelings towards Liberty, you can see that I share some of your disdain for the "school" albeit for different reasons.

Now that my bias is shown in full disclosure above, as for the bolded part in your post, I would simply ask you how any of us could ever possibly answer that? There is no sexuality questionnaire filled out before receiving an athletic scholarship. If there were, I'm positive we would hear your outrage over that as well.

For all I know, half of the Coastal football team is gay. And I don't care. As long as they perform on the field and stay out of trouble, which is what they were given a scholarship to do, then as an alumnus and donor, I am happy.
12-23-2017 12:59 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: We All Knew It Was Coming
(12-23-2017 12:59 PM)CoastalAlum2011 Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:43 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 12:11 PM)CoachWillRob Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 11:52 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-23-2017 11:35 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  Liberty is a private university and for home and homes no money is exchanged at the G5 level. Actually in some cases Liberty is paying G5 programs for these.

Signing these home and home isn’t an attack on any group of people, claiming such is quite stretch even by today’s standards.

It still involves the G5 program excluding a significant portion of their students and fans from the benefits of their programs. Schedule Liberty and you will be making a conscious decision to affirm the exclusion of non-Christians, LGBT persons, etc. from your program's. Its a full throated affirmation of Liberty's policies. Full stop.

It might be different if the ADs and football programs were doing ANYTHING to compensate for this. They aren't. How many LGBT or even non-Christian coaches make those high AD salaries? How many players get scholarships? How is the University equalizing funding for football.

None of our programs have EVER had an openly LGBT player or coach in FBS. Have any of our programs ever had so much as an openly LGBT player in ANY of our prominent team sports? How about Jews or openly Athiests? You might find a very small percentage at our schools. USA actually had a Jewish basketball coach, but that was a very rare situation. But then again, USA isn't scheduling Liberty.

Again, what do LGBT persons, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, the non-Religious, the non-American born, get from their Athletic Departments for the millions they take from us EVERY single year at EVERY single one of our institutions? Apparently, they get the University to spend millions on a party they aren't invited to.

You're right!!! We should force them into believing something different then what they believe! They don't have the freedom to make any decisions that express their beliefs. How dare they make a political stand that's faith based. They're committing the ultimate political correctness sin, and since someone has made us the moral authority, we should do everything in our power to put down, bully, protest, and intimidate these people till they become tolerant of what I say they should be tolerant of. It's time we take control and not allow ANY of these opposing beliefs in our society!!!

Oh, and Merry Christmas! :)

There's a HUGE difference between someone having offensive beliefs like "Gays and Jews shouldn't have equal access to employment and scholarship opportunities" and having taxpayer funded programs helping programs that further that agenda.

How much does your football program take from the taxpayers and students? How many scholarships have you ever provided to LGBT people from that pool of money? How many coaching jobs have been paid from that?

I do truly hate Liberty but for different reasons than most. I'm a born again Christian. I believe Jesus was the son of God and I try my best to live my life according to His example though I often fail. I only share that about myself because I think it makes my perspective more transparent.

I hate Liberty because I believe their hypocrisy paints a picture of christianity that's a false one and leads people away from the truth. The most recent glaring example of this is their love affair with Donald Trump. Liberty is Christian in name only. They're a republican university, not a Christian one.

So, now that you know my general feelings towards Liberty, you can see that I share some of your disdain for the "school" albeit for different reasons.

Now that my bias is shown in full disclosure above, as for the bolded part in your post, I would simply ask you how any of us could ever possibly answer that? There is no sexuality questionnaire filled out before receiving an athletic scholarship. If there were, I'm positive we would hear your outrage over that as well.

For all I know, half of the Coastal football team is gay. And I don't care. As long as they perform on the field and stay out of trouble, which is what they were given a scholarship to do, then as an alumnus and donor, I am happy.

I understand your perspective. But I don't think you really have looked at the numbers.

I argue that the fact that your school has never had an OPENLY gay recipient of any athletic scholarship at your school, or has never had an openly LGBT coach cannot be discounted as mere coincidence. The fact that NONE of our schools have is strong evidence of extreme structural discrimination. How many football scholarships have our institutions collectively offered? 50,000? Its simply not credible to argue that there isn't massive discrimination if exactly zero of those scholarships, virtually all of which are subsidized by the students and/or the taxpayers through non-voluntary payments, is simply coincidental. In the entire history of FBS, there has been exactly one player in the history of the entire sport that has played so much as one friggin' down as an openly LGBT player.

We know the biggest reason why... Muscular "Christianity". To get playing time in many places, you have to put up with overt preaching from anti-LGBT groups. Being part of the team is being part of the FCA in many places. Want personal time with the coach? You can meet with him on Wednesday night. Want to be a coach in HS? Better get recommended by your FCA colleagues. If you aren't at least open to being a "Muscular Christian", you find out that you're not welcome soon enough. And you just don't play football.

And even if a Gay player makes it to college, how will he fare? Will his team have the toxic influence of the FCA (or AIA) making overt testimonial calls part of being a team player? Will they have spiritual advisors who poison the minds of the other players to be provided with extra access to the team by the coaches?

There's a reason the evangelicals don't start up a "Fellowship of Christian Chess Players". Its because chess players aren't perceived to be cool. They want people to use our programs to drive people to their anti-LGBT agenda of "Muscular Christianity".

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You personally might not care if a player is Gay, but Liberty University and the FCA/AIA people certainly do. And endorsing them is endorsing that discrimination and exclusion.

And its not revenue neutral. We, the non-Muscular Christians, are paying a significant portion of the bill for this. We are being harmed by this exclusion. Does Coastal Carolina pay a full time staff to help promote your LGBT group the same amount as your football coach? Of course they don't.

Basically, we are being shut out of opportunities that we are paying for. And its millions of dollars, every year, at every one of our institutions.

Scheduling Liberty is another way for our programs to marginalize us. Because it validates what they, and their ilk do as acceptable. Especially if our schools are not doing much (if anything) to offset that.

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There are concrete things that all of our institutions can do to lessen marginalization of LGBT athletes. Maybe the best solution to all of this is to simply end the student fee/taxpayer subsidy and make the football programs stand on their own two feet.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2017 01:46 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
12-23-2017 01:38 PM
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