OMG! I am so sick of hearing the 180 days a year excuse. Teachers "work" 12 hour days preparing, grading, planning. During the fun-filled "summers off" you like to call them, we are taking classes (we pay for on our own) to renew our licenses, paying to have the licenses renewed and keeping up on the latest researched-based instructional methods so students have the best chance to learn from an up-to-date PROFESSIONAL. If we were paid by the hour and paid overtime based on a 40 hour week, our salaries would be much higher.

Take another look: the starting rate is $20K, not $30 and the highest attainable pay for someone with 11 years experience and a masters is $36K. My bachelors degree cost me $45 at an average state school and my masters added another $15. Would you strive to achieve a salary of $36K after spending $60K on an education? And that's just the initial schooling. Every year, there are continued courses, license renewal fees, fingerprinting fees.....the list goes on. And all paid out of our own pockets. When will we start putting a value on Educators. We idolize sports "stars" who are convicted felons, rapists,....... Where are your priorities?

(02-21-2011 08:17 PM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  OK. Fair enough.

Clock alarm going off at 3 am every morning (assumably). 18 hour workdays. $47K/year, which - if we did the math - would result in a really low "per work hour" wage. Hating the job to the point where the kids are forbidden to enter the field.

...So I have to echo some comments others have made: Any reason why she didn't ditch the whole thing far earlier and take her talents elsewhere? As I said, this scenario is extreme; hardly representative of the average educator's schedule. Sounds like she was treated poorly when compared to other teachers.

Maybe it's easier said than done to change, and maybe there were other circumstances you certainly don't need to share on a message board. Sounds like she's got some good opportunities now, so hopefully things get better for her and she's able to breathe.

I may have missed something, and CRH can correct me if I am wrong but I get the impression that she didn't HATE the job(if she did, she wouldn't have done it for so long). She disliked some of the aspects of the job including pay and long hours but she was generally happy with the job of helping the kids. She just wanted her kids to not have to go through that hassle.

(02-27-2011 12:25 AM)tlynnjones Wrote:  OMG! I am so sick of hearing the 180 days a year excuse. Teachers "work" 12 hour days preparing, grading, planning. During the fun-filled "summers off" you like to call them, we are taking classes (we pay for on our own) to renew our licenses, paying to have the licenses renewed and keeping up on the latest researched-based instructional methods so students have the best chance to learn from an up-to-date PROFESSIONAL. If we were paid by the hour and paid overtime based on a 40 hour week, our salaries would be much higher.

Take another look: the starting rate is $20K, not $30 and the highest attainable pay for someone with 11 years experience and a masters is $36K. My bachelors degree cost me $45 at an average state school and my masters added another $15. Would you strive to achieve a salary of $36K after spending $60K on an education? And that's just the initial schooling. Every year, there are continued courses, license renewal fees, fingerprinting fees.....the list goes on. And all paid out of our own pockets. When will we start putting a value on Educators. We idolize sports "stars" who are convicted felons, rapists,....... Where are your priorities?

I could tell you were new here. One thing to remember, this board is full of people who want to do away with public education. One way to do that is bust the Unions and make pay so low(lower than it is currently) that people who are qualified refuse to take the job and look in the private sector leaving the third rate teachers-ensuring failure. Then come back and say, see the public schools are failing. We need local control so they can offer vouchers for private schools and eliminate the need for public schools. Of course, the state senators plan in Missouri will help ease the number of kids in school with her trying to rip out of most chlild labor laws in her state. Then 12 y/o kids can work 40+ hours a week instead of going to school(these would be the "left over" students that none of the private schools would take thus eliminating the need for public schools).

As for their priorities, that would be their checkbook.

(02-27-2011 01:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 12:25 AM)tlynnjones Wrote:  OMG! I am so sick of hearing the 180 days a year excuse. Teachers "work" 12 hour days preparing, grading, planning. During the fun-filled "summers off" you like to call them, we are taking classes (we pay for on our own) to renew our licenses, paying to have the licenses renewed and keeping up on the latest researched-based instructional methods so students have the best chance to learn from an up-to-date PROFESSIONAL. If we were paid by the hour and paid overtime based on a 40 hour week, our salaries would be much higher.
Take another look: the starting rate is $20K, not $30 and the highest attainable pay for someone with 11 years experience and a masters is $36K. My bachelors degree cost me $45 at an average state school and my masters added another $15. Would you strive to achieve a salary of $36K after spending $60K on an education? And that's just the initial schooling. Every year, there are continued courses, license renewal fees, fingerprinting fees.....the list goes on. And all paid out of our own pockets. When will we start putting a value on Educators. We idolize sports "stars" who are convicted felons, rapists,....... Where are your priorities?

I could tell you were new here. One thing to remember, this board is full of people who want to do away with public education. One way to do that is bust the Unions and make pay so low(lower than it is currently) that people who are qualified refuse to take the job and look in the private sector leaving the third rate teachers-ensuring failure. Then come back and say, see the public schools are failing. We need local control so they can offer vouchers for private schools and eliminate the need for public schools. Of course, the state senators plan in Missouri will help ease the number of kids in school with her trying to rip out of most child labor laws in her state. Then 12 y/o kids can work 40+ hours a week instead of going to school (these would be the "left over" students that none of the private schools would take thus eliminating the need for public schools).
As for their priorities, that would be their checkbook.

I'm going to call BS on both of you. And I'm an advocate of paying teachers more and providing more to cover their out-of-pocket expenses.

I was married to a teacher--and a very successful one, who has won awards for her successes--and her life was never like what you describe, tlynn. There may have been the occasional 12-hour day here or there, but that was 3 or 4 times a year, not the norm. There were teachers who may have worked a lot more 12-hour days, but that was because they were incompetent and did not know how to use their time. They were the bad teachers, not the good ones. And I don't know where you got your pay scale numbers, but that's not close to what they are here--unless you teach at church-sponsored private schools.

As for robert, all I can say is that it's amazing what one can post when he or she feels absolutely unconstrained by facts. What you're describing is what happens in third world countries, like those Arab societies that you used to pimp on here. Nobody has that in mind here--although Obama's economic policies may drive us back to third world status, and who knows what happens then.

I'm with you on the need to pay teachers more. But ludicrous comments like these do that effort more harm than good. The reality is that we underpay teachers for what we expect. We aren't going to improve education until we fix that. But exaggerated claims that it's effectively slave labor, or that the objective is to exploit children, do more to turn people off than to convince them.

It's no question that we need to reform our education system. Does that necessarily mean that we need to pay teachers more? I really should depend on your experience and skill level. A beginning teacher shouldn't get paid much more because they are, well beginners. I think the idea that if they are rewarded with more pay for achievement, we'll foster a systems where teachers strive to achieve.

I also believe that there needs to be more career paths and awards in the teaching profession. Of course unions do a lot to hamper that by getting the good and bad teachers the same salary with the same experience. If you know you're going to get paid the same no matter what you do, where's the motivation?

At the end of the day it's a multi-tiered fix and it's going to take more than political grandstanding to get it done.

(02-21-2011 01:13 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(02-21-2011 12:03 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  I'm sorry, but... "4 am to 10 pm most weekdays" and all weekends?

OK, I'll suspend my incredible disbelief for just a minute...

In what twilight zone do you guys live where teachers are allegedly plowing through 18-hour workdays and wall-to-wall weekends? I've known many teachers - good teachers - across many different districts and cities that don't work anywhere near the hours you guys allegedly claim to witness. Most of them are on facebook by 5 pm telling everyone what reality shows they're going to catch that evening.

So, you are saying I'm a liar? I WATCHED her do it, I've seen her LEAVE the house every school day morning by 6am to meet the damn janitor, so she can get work done.

I'm sorry, but teachers are woefully underpaid, and that's a fact.

Oh, my mother, and in fact none of my family, (nearly ALL educators in Ohio, or retired teachers) has EVER recieved a bonus, other than sick day compensation.

But I wouldn't know what what the hell I'm talking about, since... well, I haven't been watching it for 25 years.

She taught freaking kindergarten!!! If your mom has to be at work at 6am to catch up on work for a bunch of 5 year olds, then she either has the most gifted 5 year olds ever, or she was inefficient. ABCs and 123s don't require 18 hour work days.

As for being a school psychologist, the fact that schools even have those thing shows how pussified kids are these days.

(02-21-2011 02:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  I'd consider moving to Aus or NZ.

Why? Ken Ham lives in the Cincinnati area now.

(02-27-2011 01:47 PM)dfarr Wrote:  

(02-21-2011 01:13 PM)CountryRedHawk Wrote:  

(02-21-2011 12:03 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  I'm sorry, but... "4 am to 10 pm most weekdays" and all weekends?

OK, I'll suspend my incredible disbelief for just a minute...

In what twilight zone do you guys live where teachers are allegedly plowing through 18-hour workdays and wall-to-wall weekends? I've known many teachers - good teachers - across many different districts and cities that don't work anywhere near the hours you guys allegedly claim to witness. Most of them are on facebook by 5 pm telling everyone what reality shows they're going to catch that evening.

So, you are saying I'm a liar? I WATCHED her do it, I've seen her LEAVE the house every school day morning by 6am to meet the damn janitor, so she can get work done.

I'm sorry, but teachers are woefully underpaid, and that's a fact.

Oh, my mother, and in fact none of my family, (nearly ALL educators in Ohio, or retired teachers) has EVER recieved a bonus, other than sick day compensation.

But I wouldn't know what what the hell I'm talking about, since... well, I haven't been watching it for 25 years.

She taught freaking kindergarten!!! If your mom has to be at work at 6am to catch up on work for a bunch of 5 year olds, then she either has the most gifted 5 year olds ever, or she was inefficient. ABCs and 123s don't require 18 hour work days.

As for being a school psychologist, the fact that schools even have those thing shows how pussified kids are these days.

Is it that they're "pussified", or is because there are some scary crazy kids out there? I pick that latter.

Do I believe that every school needs one? No, but there does need to be at least one per system. Besides the crazy kids, you have kids who have a lot of experiences in their lives that alter behavior at all ages. My mom comes home and tells me about kids who were molested, kids who saw friends or family members killed in front of their faces, kids who's parents abuse them because of drug/alcohol problems, etc.

Remember not everyone grows up in the same living conditions as the others.

(02-27-2011 01:50 PM)TJfan Wrote:  

(02-21-2011 02:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  I'd consider moving to Aus or NZ.

Why? Ken Ham lives in the Cincinnati area now.

I don't understand why you single Torch out for being a religious zealot. Is it because he homeschools his own kids?

(02-27-2011 04:01 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 01:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 12:25 AM)tlynnjones Wrote:  OMG! I am so sick of hearing the 180 days a year excuse. Teachers "work" 12 hour days preparing, grading, planning. During the fun-filled "summers off" you like to call them, we are taking classes (we pay for on our own) to renew our licenses, paying to have the licenses renewed and keeping up on the latest researched-based instructional methods so students have the best chance to learn from an up-to-date PROFESSIONAL. If we were paid by the hour and paid overtime based on a 40 hour week, our salaries would be much higher.
Take another look: the starting rate is $20K, not $30 and the highest attainable pay for someone with 11 years experience and a masters is $36K. My bachelors degree cost me $45 at an average state school and my masters added another $15. Would you strive to achieve a salary of $36K after spending $60K on an education? And that's just the initial schooling. Every year, there are continued courses, license renewal fees, fingerprinting fees.....the list goes on. And all paid out of our own pockets. When will we start putting a value on Educators. We idolize sports "stars" who are convicted felons, rapists,....... Where are your priorities?

I could tell you were new here. One thing to remember, this board is full of people who want to do away with public education. One way to do that is bust the Unions and make pay so low(lower than it is currently) that people who are qualified refuse to take the job and look in the private sector leaving the third rate teachers-ensuring failure. Then come back and say, see the public schools are failing. We need local control so they can offer vouchers for private schools and eliminate the need for public schools. Of course, the state senators plan in Missouri will help ease the number of kids in school with her trying to rip out of most child labor laws in her state. Then 12 y/o kids can work 40+ hours a week instead of going to school (these would be the "left over" students that none of the private schools would take thus eliminating the need for public schools).
As for their priorities, that would be their checkbook.

I'm going to call BS on both of you. And I'm an advocate of paying teachers more and providing more to cover their out-of-pocket expenses.

I was married to a teacher--and a very successful one, who has won awards for her successes--and her life was never like what you describe, tlynn. There may have been the occasional 12-hour day here or there, but that was 3 or 4 times a year, not the norm. There were teachers who may have worked a lot more 12-hour days, but that was because they were incompetent and did not know how to use their time. They were the bad teachers, not the good ones. And I don't know where you got your pay scale numbers, but that's not close to what they are here--unless you teach at church-sponsored private schools.

As for robert, all I can say is that it's amazing what one can post when he or she feels absolutely unconstrained by facts. What you're describing is what happens in third world countries, like those Arab societies that you used to pimp on here. Nobody has that in mind here--although Obama's economic policies may drive us back to third world status, and who knows what happens then.

I'm with you on the need to pay teachers more. But ludicrous comments like these do that effort more harm than good. The reality is that we underpay teachers for what we expect. We aren't going to improve education until we fix that. But exaggerated claims that it's effectively slave labor, or that the objective is to exploit children, do more to turn people off than to convince them.

Owl, you are very naive. The right is talking about doing away with the Department of Education and bringing it down to the local level. Where they can do away with public education by giving out vouchers and more charter schools. What children are left in any public school are the "leftovers". THe schools will fail and be eliminated because of the new lack of child labor laws that the right is pushing for(the nutjob from Missouri isn't the only one on the right pushing this crap(btw, look it up. It is a quick Google search-her name is Jane Cunningham a state senator from Missouri and her bill is online). Don't forget about the elimination of the minimum wage. THis will affect a great many poor and lower middle class folks-most of which will have their kids not being chosen by private schools(for various reasons like cost). If wages on thhese people is cut, they will have to resort to their 12 year old kids working 40+ hours a week just to get by. Sorry man but it is the Republicans(conservatives in general) who want to make this a third world country with their political ideas. Open up your eyes. Look around you. Think for yourself(assuming you have something in your head besides air). Look at individual policies and put them together to get the big picture(I understand this might be a little difficult for you but give it a try. Maybe if you write them down it will help?). You will see a frightening future for this country. I will start with a list to help you out a bit:

get rid of minimum wage
get rid of Unions
get rid of child labor laws
get rid of workplace regulations
get rid of the EPA
get rid of the Department of Education


I may have forgot some so I might have to come back and add to this list.

(02-27-2011 02:20 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 04:01 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 01:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 12:25 AM)tlynnjones Wrote:  OMG! I am so sick of hearing the 180 days a year excuse. Teachers "work" 12 hour days preparing, grading, planning. During the fun-filled "summers off" you like to call them, we are taking classes (we pay for on our own) to renew our licenses, paying to have the licenses renewed and keeping up on the latest researched-based instructional methods so students have the best chance to learn from an up-to-date PROFESSIONAL. If we were paid by the hour and paid overtime based on a 40 hour week, our salaries would be much higher.
Take another look: the starting rate is $20K, not $30 and the highest attainable pay for someone with 11 years experience and a masters is $36K. My bachelors degree cost me $45 at an average state school and my masters added another $15. Would you strive to achieve a salary of $36K after spending $60K on an education? And that's just the initial schooling. Every year, there are continued courses, license renewal fees, fingerprinting fees.....the list goes on. And all paid out of our own pockets. When will we start putting a value on Educators. We idolize sports "stars" who are convicted felons, rapists,....... Where are your priorities?

I could tell you were new here. One thing to remember, this board is full of people who want to do away with public education. One way to do that is bust the Unions and make pay so low(lower than it is currently) that people who are qualified refuse to take the job and look in the private sector leaving the third rate teachers-ensuring failure. Then come back and say, see the public schools are failing. We need local control so they can offer vouchers for private schools and eliminate the need for public schools. Of course, the state senators plan in Missouri will help ease the number of kids in school with her trying to rip out of most child labor laws in her state. Then 12 y/o kids can work 40+ hours a week instead of going to school (these would be the "left over" students that none of the private schools would take thus eliminating the need for public schools).
As for their priorities, that would be their checkbook.

I'm going to call BS on both of you. And I'm an advocate of paying teachers more and providing more to cover their out-of-pocket expenses.

I was married to a teacher--and a very successful one, who has won awards for her successes--and her life was never like what you describe, tlynn. There may have been the occasional 12-hour day here or there, but that was 3 or 4 times a year, not the norm. There were teachers who may have worked a lot more 12-hour days, but that was because they were incompetent and did not know how to use their time. They were the bad teachers, not the good ones. And I don't know where you got your pay scale numbers, but that's not close to what they are here--unless you teach at church-sponsored private schools.

As for robert, all I can say is that it's amazing what one can post when he or she feels absolutely unconstrained by facts. What you're describing is what happens in third world countries, like those Arab societies that you used to pimp on here. Nobody has that in mind here--although Obama's economic policies may drive us back to third world status, and who knows what happens then.

I'm with you on the need to pay teachers more. But ludicrous comments like these do that effort more harm than good. The reality is that we underpay teachers for what we expect. We aren't going to improve education until we fix that. But exaggerated claims that it's effectively slave labor, or that the objective is to exploit children, do more to turn people off than to convince them.

Owl, you are very naive. The right is talking about doing away with the Department of Education and bringing it down to the local level. Where they can do away with public education by giving out vouchers and more charter schools. What children are left in any public school are the "leftovers". THe schools will fail and be eliminated because of the new lack of child labor laws that the right is pushing for(the nutjob from Missouri isn't the only one on the right pushing this crap(btw, look it up. It is a quick Google search-her name is Jane Cunningham a state senator from Missouri and her bill is online). Don't forget about the elimination of the minimum wage. THis will affect a great many poor and lower middle class folks-most of which will have their kids not being chosen by private schools(for various reasons like cost). If wages on thhese people is cut, they will have to resort to their 12 year old kids working 40+ hours a week just to get by. Sorry man but it is the Republicans(conservatives in general) who want to make this a third world country with their political ideas. Open up your eyes. Look around you. Think for yourself(assuming you have something in your head besides air). Look at individual policies and put them together to get the big picture(I understand this might be a little difficult for you but give it a try. Maybe if you write them down it will help?). You will see a frightening future for this country. I will start with a list to help you out a bit:

get rid of minimum wage
get rid of Unions
get rid of child labor laws
get rid of workplace regulations
get rid of the EPA
get rid of the Department of Education


I may have forgot some so I might have to come back and add to this list.

Jeez Robert, this is why we all wanted you back. Your a hoot.

(02-27-2011 02:27 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 02:20 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 04:01 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 01:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 12:25 AM)tlynnjones Wrote:  OMG! I am so sick of hearing the 180 days a year excuse. Teachers "work" 12 hour days preparing, grading, planning. During the fun-filled "summers off" you like to call them, we are taking classes (we pay for on our own) to renew our licenses, paying to have the licenses renewed and keeping up on the latest researched-based instructional methods so students have the best chance to learn from an up-to-date PROFESSIONAL. If we were paid by the hour and paid overtime based on a 40 hour week, our salaries would be much higher.
Take another look: the starting rate is $20K, not $30 and the highest attainable pay for someone with 11 years experience and a masters is $36K. My bachelors degree cost me $45 at an average state school and my masters added another $15. Would you strive to achieve a salary of $36K after spending $60K on an education? And that's just the initial schooling. Every year, there are continued courses, license renewal fees, fingerprinting fees.....the list goes on. And all paid out of our own pockets. When will we start putting a value on Educators. We idolize sports "stars" who are convicted felons, rapists,....... Where are your priorities?

I could tell you were new here. One thing to remember, this board is full of people who want to do away with public education. One way to do that is bust the Unions and make pay so low(lower than it is currently) that people who are qualified refuse to take the job and look in the private sector leaving the third rate teachers-ensuring failure. Then come back and say, see the public schools are failing. We need local control so they can offer vouchers for private schools and eliminate the need for public schools. Of course, the state senators plan in Missouri will help ease the number of kids in school with her trying to rip out of most child labor laws in her state. Then 12 y/o kids can work 40+ hours a week instead of going to school (these would be the "left over" students that none of the private schools would take thus eliminating the need for public schools).
As for their priorities, that would be their checkbook.

I'm going to call BS on both of you. And I'm an advocate of paying teachers more and providing more to cover their out-of-pocket expenses.

I was married to a teacher--and a very successful one, who has won awards for her successes--and her life was never like what you describe, tlynn. There may have been the occasional 12-hour day here or there, but that was 3 or 4 times a year, not the norm. There were teachers who may have worked a lot more 12-hour days, but that was because they were incompetent and did not know how to use their time. They were the bad teachers, not the good ones. And I don't know where you got your pay scale numbers, but that's not close to what they are here--unless you teach at church-sponsored private schools.

As for robert, all I can say is that it's amazing what one can post when he or she feels absolutely unconstrained by facts. What you're describing is what happens in third world countries, like those Arab societies that you used to pimp on here. Nobody has that in mind here--although Obama's economic policies may drive us back to third world status, and who knows what happens then.

I'm with you on the need to pay teachers more. But ludicrous comments like these do that effort more harm than good. The reality is that we underpay teachers for what we expect. We aren't going to improve education until we fix that. But exaggerated claims that it's effectively slave labor, or that the objective is to exploit children, do more to turn people off than to convince them.

Owl, you are very naive. The right is talking about doing away with the Department of Education and bringing it down to the local level. Where they can do away with public education by giving out vouchers and more charter schools. What children are left in any public school are the "leftovers". THe schools will fail and be eliminated because of the new lack of child labor laws that the right is pushing for(the nutjob from Missouri isn't the only one on the right pushing this crap(btw, look it up. It is a quick Google search-her name is Jane Cunningham a state senator from Missouri and her bill is online). Don't forget about the elimination of the minimum wage. THis will affect a great many poor and lower middle class folks-most of which will have their kids not being chosen by private schools(for various reasons like cost). If wages on thhese people is cut, they will have to resort to their 12 year old kids working 40+ hours a week just to get by. Sorry man but it is the Republicans(conservatives in general) who want to make this a third world country with their political ideas. Open up your eyes. Look around you. Think for yourself(assuming you have something in your head besides air). Look at individual policies and put them together to get the big picture(I understand this might be a little difficult for you but give it a try. Maybe if you write them down it will help?). You will see a frightening future for this country. I will start with a list to help you out a bit:

get rid of minimum wage
get rid of Unions
get rid of child labor laws
get rid of workplace regulations
get rid of the EPA
get rid of the Department of Education


I may have forgot some so I might have to come back and add to this list.

Jeez Robert, this is why we all wanted you back. Your a hoot.

I don't believe that the frame of what he said was untrue, he went wrong when he started the hyperbole. You can't say that the most zealous members don't want to get rid of all of that stuff.

While I believe that all of those programs need to be reduced, I realize that total cuts will hurt a lot of people. I know for a fact that a lot of republicans want to eliminate the Dept. of Education. While I can agree that some of the bureaucracy needs to go, the Dept. also provides grants to smaller systems that struggle to keep up with the bigger more prestigious systems.

So you aren't good at putting puzzles together Paul? At least give it a shot. Tell me what the puzzle pieces all together look like. I will give you a hint. It looks something like this(without the infrastructure upgrades of course because you don't to pay for them):

http://www.mapsofworld.com/china/china-p...l-map.html

(02-27-2011 02:37 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 02:27 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 02:20 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 04:01 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 01:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  I could tell you were new here. One thing to remember, this board is full of people who want to do away with public education. One way to do that is bust the Unions and make pay so low(lower than it is currently) that people who are qualified refuse to take the job and look in the private sector leaving the third rate teachers-ensuring failure. Then come back and say, see the public schools are failing. We need local control so they can offer vouchers for private schools and eliminate the need for public schools. Of course, the state senators plan in Missouri will help ease the number of kids in school with her trying to rip out of most child labor laws in her state. Then 12 y/o kids can work 40+ hours a week instead of going to school (these would be the "left over" students that none of the private schools would take thus eliminating the need for public schools).
As for their priorities, that would be their checkbook.

I'm going to call BS on both of you. And I'm an advocate of paying teachers more and providing more to cover their out-of-pocket expenses.

I was married to a teacher--and a very successful one, who has won awards for her successes--and her life was never like what you describe, tlynn. There may have been the occasional 12-hour day here or there, but that was 3 or 4 times a year, not the norm. There were teachers who may have worked a lot more 12-hour days, but that was because they were incompetent and did not know how to use their time. They were the bad teachers, not the good ones. And I don't know where you got your pay scale numbers, but that's not close to what they are here--unless you teach at church-sponsored private schools.

As for robert, all I can say is that it's amazing what one can post when he or she feels absolutely unconstrained by facts. What you're describing is what happens in third world countries, like those Arab societies that you used to pimp on here. Nobody has that in mind here--although Obama's economic policies may drive us back to third world status, and who knows what happens then.

I'm with you on the need to pay teachers more. But ludicrous comments like these do that effort more harm than good. The reality is that we underpay teachers for what we expect. We aren't going to improve education until we fix that. But exaggerated claims that it's effectively slave labor, or that the objective is to exploit children, do more to turn people off than to convince them.

Owl, you are very naive. The right is talking about doing away with the Department of Education and bringing it down to the local level. Where they can do away with public education by giving out vouchers and more charter schools. What children are left in any public school are the "leftovers". THe schools will fail and be eliminated because of the new lack of child labor laws that the right is pushing for(the nutjob from Missouri isn't the only one on the right pushing this crap(btw, look it up. It is a quick Google search-her name is Jane Cunningham a state senator from Missouri and her bill is online). Don't forget about the elimination of the minimum wage. THis will affect a great many poor and lower middle class folks-most of which will have their kids not being chosen by private schools(for various reasons like cost). If wages on thhese people is cut, they will have to resort to their 12 year old kids working 40+ hours a week just to get by. Sorry man but it is the Republicans(conservatives in general) who want to make this a third world country with their political ideas. Open up your eyes. Look around you. Think for yourself(assuming you have something in your head besides air). Look at individual policies and put them together to get the big picture(I understand this might be a little difficult for you but give it a try. Maybe if you write them down it will help?). You will see a frightening future for this country. I will start with a list to help you out a bit:

get rid of minimum wage
get rid of Unions
get rid of child labor laws
get rid of workplace regulations
get rid of the EPA
get rid of the Department of Education


I may have forgot some so I might have to come back and add to this list.

Jeez Robert, this is why we all wanted you back. Your a hoot.

I don't believe that the frame of what he said was untrue, he went wrong when he started the hyperbole. You can't say that the most zealous members don't want to get rid of all of that stuff.

While I believe that all of those programs need to be reduced, I realize that total cuts will hurt a lot of people. I know for a fact that a lot of republicans want to eliminate the Dept. of Education. While I can agree that some of the bureaucracy needs to go, the Dept. also provides grants to smaller systems that struggle to keep up with the bigger more prestigious systems.

Unfortunately, many of the Republicans who are being elected now ARE the more zealous members(as well as the left to be fair) and ARE pushing this agenda. I am farther left than a moderate but could live with moderates(though, I would prefer moderate left over moderate right). Of course, what makes one a moderate these days? My idea of moderate is way different than Pauls definition.

(02-27-2011 02:37 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 02:27 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Jeez Robert, this is why we all wanted you back. Your a hoot.

I don't believe that the frame of what he said was untrue, he went wrong when he started the hyperbole. You can't say that the most zealous members don't want to get rid of all of that stuff.

While I believe that all of those programs need to be reduced, I realize that total cuts will hurt a lot of people. I know for a fact that a lot of republicans want to eliminate the Dept. of Education. While I can agree that some of the bureaucracy needs to go, the Dept. also provides grants to smaller systems that struggle to keep up with the bigger more prestigious systems.

The hyperbole was the hoot.

Sure, cutting or eliminating what he listed is in play. But the goal being the destruction of America..., greedy conservatives can't make money off of a country full of poor people. Conservatives either want to get rich or they want to live in a third world country. Rob can't have it both ways.

The problem is that liberals assume that the pie is fixed in size and all that matters is how you distribute it. If that were right, then I'd be a huge proponent of income equalizations.

But it's not right. Policies that tend to equalize the size of everyone's piece of the pie also tend to shrink the pie as a whole. Policies which tend to grow the pie can have negative impacts on equality of distribution. You have to strike a balance between the two.

What's happened in the last 50 years or so is that a lot of our pie has gone overseas. We show growth overall, but in terms of world "market share" we are losing ground. The people at the top have the ability to keep their pieces of the pie pretty much constant (in reality, growing to keep up with inflation). That leaves less and less for the masses.

You can address income inequality by trying to make rich people poorer or by trying to make poor people richer. Right now, the democrats are trying to do the former, the republicans are trying to hold on to the status quo, and nobody is doing the latter. The latter is what should be done. So, both parties are wrong.

(02-27-2011 03:22 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 02:37 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 02:27 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Jeez Robert, this is why we all wanted you back. Your a hoot.

I don't believe that the frame of what he said was untrue, he went wrong when he started the hyperbole. You can't say that the most zealous members don't want to get rid of all of that stuff.

While I believe that all of those programs need to be reduced, I realize that total cuts will hurt a lot of people. I know for a fact that a lot of republicans want to eliminate the Dept. of Education. While I can agree that some of the bureaucracy needs to go, the Dept. also provides grants to smaller systems that struggle to keep up with the bigger more prestigious systems.

The hyperbole was the hoot.

Sure, cutting or eliminating what he listed is in play. But the goal being the destruction of America..., greedy conservatives can't make money off of a country full of poor people. Conservatives either want to get rich or they want to live in a third world country. Rob can't have it both ways.

Really Paul? The CEO's and big corps can't make huge profits off the backs of cheap labor? Really? You guys on the far right are just too naive. Hasn't China gotten wealthy off the backs of their cheap labor? This is the plan for the US. If you are wealthy now, you have nothing to worry about(which I assume you are based on your support for these changes).

(02-27-2011 03:04 PM)RobertN Wrote:  ]Unfortunately, many of the Republicans who are being elected now ARE the more zealous members(as well as the left to be fair) and ARE pushing this agenda. I am farther left than a moderate but could live with moderates(though, I would prefer moderate left over moderate right). Of course, what makes one a moderate these days? My idea of moderate is way different than Pauls definition.

Rob, the liberals we have in office are far more to the left than the conservatives are to the right. Socialized healthcare, unions being handed a car company by the president, cap and trade, amnesty, spending... c'mon man. Obama's campaign rant was "Yes we can" but a conservative's rant would be "Yes I can" or "Yes you can"

(02-27-2011 12:25 AM)tlynnjones Wrote:  OMG! I am so sick of hearing the 180 days a year excuse. Teachers "work" 12 hour days preparing, grading, planning. During the fun-filled "summers off" you like to call them, we are taking classes (we pay for on our own) to renew our licenses, paying to have the licenses renewed and keeping up on the latest researched-based instructional methods so students have the best chance to learn from an up-to-date PROFESSIONAL. If we were paid by the hour and paid overtime based on a 40 hour week, our salaries would be much higher.

Take another look: the starting rate is $20K, not $30 and the highest attainable pay for someone with 11 years experience and a masters is $36K. My bachelors degree cost me $45 at an average state school and my masters added another $15. Would you strive to achieve a salary of $36K after spending $60K on an education? And that's just the initial schooling. Every year, there are continued courses, license renewal fees, fingerprinting fees.....the list goes on. And all paid out of our own pockets. When will we start putting a value on Educators. We idolize sports "stars" who are convicted felons, rapists,....... Where are your priorities?

Given what you're describing, if true... you clearly don't teach in Ohio or Wisconson... so when we talk about cutting teacher pay, we're not realy talking about you, are we?

"OMG, I'm sick and tired of... " people NOT in a specific situation talking about how hard they have it and how people are out to get them.... because they're against people who DON'T have it as hard as they do in a different situation.

If you were making 100k (the avg in Wisc) and I told you budgets were tight and we needed to cut you back to 90k... would you have the same riteous indignation you currently carry? Would you think I was being as unreasonable as asking you... who apparently work 60 hour weeks for "negative" net income to take a pay cut? FTR, the former is on the table... the latter is not. Quit claiming that people against the former would make the same decision about the latter... giving you the benefit of the doubt that what you say is true

(02-27-2011 04:26 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-27-2011 03:04 PM)RobertN Wrote:  ]Unfortunately, many of the Republicans who are being elected now ARE the more zealous members(as well as the left to be fair) and ARE pushing this agenda. I am farther left than a moderate but could live with moderates(though, I would prefer moderate left over moderate right). Of course, what makes one a moderate these days? My idea of moderate is way different than Pauls definition.

Rob, the liberals we have in office are far more to the left than the conservatives are to the right. Socialized healthcare, unions being handed a car company by the president, cap and trade, amnesty, spending... c'mon man. Obama's campaign rant was "Yes we can" but a conservative's rant would be "Yes I can" or "Yes you can"

Let me guess. You think Michele Bachmann(sp?) is centrist. You think Sarah Palin is centrist. You think the Governor of Wisconsin is centrist. Really? Now, I suppose they may be centrist in Oklahoma. THey may be centrist in Mississippi. THey may be centrist in Alabama, S.Carolina and Texas but when you take the whole country into account, they are very much right of center(I would say extreme right).