I'm going to agree with the OP but for another reason.....

Michael Jordan/Nike ruined the game of basketball starting at the high school level on up and changed the way the world looks at the Tennis shoe. You can add others to the list but it starts with those two.

I would also label him the greatest player

(04-12-2017 08:26 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  For this reason, many star players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant have gone to other teams in search of championships.

There is no more loyalty to a team. There is no more building of a team around good players. Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.


What are your thoughts?

None of that is Jordan's fault. Jordan made the Bulls a power, he didn't leave to join other players to create a power. Modern players take the easier route by joining up. Not saying that's bad, it's just a different era. However, I give more respect to how Jordan accomplished his goals.

With Rodman and Pippen and Oakley and Sellers and ...

People act like Jordan played in a vacuum, but he was surrounded by talent (including the top rebounder in the NBA for seven straight years in Rodman and another HOFer in Pippen) to go with HOFer Phil Jackson on the bench. It's not like he was a one man show - they were a 3-5 man show.

(04-12-2017 07:39 AM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  NBA now is all about players now more then ever...The new commish has completely given up any power he has and now the players are running the league...They sit whenever they want to, they develop their "own brand", pretty much do whatever they want, its getting out of hand fast and why NBA ratings are at an all time low. Regular season time and time again is shown to be meaningless and players and coaches treat it as such.........We all might as well fast forward to June to see if Warriors play Cavs or Celtics?

Today's league may be more star driven and player controlled than ever, but your beef with the disparity and predictability of the finals is nothing new.

There have been 67 NBA championships and the Celtics and Lakers have combined for 33 of those 67.

Out of 30 franchises, seven have never even been to the finals, another five have been to the finals at least once(none of them more than twice) but have not won one, another eight have won just a single title.

That's 20 out of 30 franchises with one or less titles, of those eight with just a single title, three won theirs in a different city(Kings won one as Rochester Royals, Thunder won one as Seattle Supersonic, Hawks won one in St. Louis), so there are 16 current NBA cities with at least one title, seven of those are 30+ years removed from their last title. The same nine franchises have won the last 33 titles.

(04-12-2017 09:15 AM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 08:26 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  For this reason, many star players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant have gone to other teams in search of championships.

There is no more loyalty to a team. There is no more building of a team around good players. Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.


What are your thoughts?

None of that is Jordan's fault. Jordan made the Bulls a power, he didn't leave to join other players to create a power. Modern players take the easier route by joining up. Not saying that's bad, it's just a different era. However, I give more respect to how Jordan accomplished his goals.

With Rodman and Pippen and Oakley and Sellers and ...

People act like Jordan played in a vacuum, but he was surrounded by talent (including the top rebounder in the NBA for seven straight years in Rodman and another HOFer in Pippen) to go with HOFer Phil Jackson on the bench. It's not like he was a one man show - they were a 3-5 man show.

Jordan went 6-0 in the finals and the only constants in those six were Phil and Pippin and all the other suppirting cast that came through were better for playing with Jordan.

(04-12-2017 09:36 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:15 AM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 08:26 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  For this reason, many star players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant have gone to other teams in search of championships.

There is no more loyalty to a team. There is no more building of a team around good players. Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.


What are your thoughts?

None of that is Jordan's fault. Jordan made the Bulls a power, he didn't leave to join other players to create a power. Modern players take the easier route by joining up. Not saying that's bad, it's just a different era. However, I give more respect to how Jordan accomplished his goals.

With Rodman and Pippen and Oakley and Sellers and ...

People act like Jordan played in a vacuum, but he was surrounded by talent (including the top rebounder in the NBA for seven straight years in Rodman and another HOFer in Pippen) to go with HOFer Phil Jackson on the bench. It's not like he was a one man show - they were a 3-5 man show.

Jordan went 6-0 in the finals and the only constants in those six were Phil and Pippin and all the other suppirting cast that came through were better for playing with Jordan.

Isn't that true for people who've played with all great players?

The point being that saying Jordan did it all himself or somehow elevated below-caliber talent to championship level talent isn't true. He had two Hall of Famers with him every step of the way and really good players elsewhere (Rodman, etc.).

It wasn't as if they didn't make him better, as well. Need to double-team Jordan? Okay, I'll pass it to hall-of-famer Pippen and let him shoot it from the elbow. If he misses, the NBA's leading rebounder, Dennis Rodman, will get it and kick it back out, and if we get in a bind, our hall of fame coach Phil Jackson will draw up a nice play for NBA 3-point champion Steve Kerr to knock down a three.

(04-11-2017 02:55 PM)Eagleholic Wrote:  

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Michael Jordan is considered the best player to ever play the game.

Yet he didn't score the most points or

Had the most triple doubles or

Had the most assists or

The most championships. However, people usually point to his six championships as proof.

For this reason, many star players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant have gone to other teams in search of championships.

There is no more loyalty to a team. There is no more building of a team around good players. Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.


What are your thoughts?

By your reasoning, it wouldn't be Jordan that ruined basketball, as he was always with the Bulls. But it would be the people that point to his championships that ruined it.

Yeah, ESPN has almost single handedly destroyed the purity of sports. Greed is the other but those two are intricately intertwined.

College basketball is my favorite sport.

NBA ? I haven't watched a game all year.

(04-12-2017 09:36 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:15 AM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 08:26 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  For this reason, many star players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant have gone to other teams in search of championships.

There is no more loyalty to a team. There is no more building of a team around good players. Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.


What are your thoughts?

None of that is Jordan's fault. Jordan made the Bulls a power, he didn't leave to join other players to create a power. Modern players take the easier route by joining up. Not saying that's bad, it's just a different era. However, I give more respect to how Jordan accomplished his goals.

With Rodman and Pippen and Oakley and Sellers and ...

People act like Jordan played in a vacuum, but he was surrounded by talent (including the top rebounder in the NBA for seven straight years in Rodman and another HOFer in Pippen) to go with HOFer Phil Jackson on the bench. It's not like he was a one man show - they were a 3-5 man show.

Jordan went 6-0 in the finals and the only constants in those six were Phil and Pippin and all the other suppirting cast that came through were better for playing with Jordan.

Yep, the constant was Jordan and he stayed with the team that drafted him. If anything, the Bulls fortunes when Jordan left for his baseball experience explains everything. Win three when he's there, win none when he left, win three more when he returned. Can you imagine Bird/Jordan/Magic ever wanting to be on the same team? They wanted to beat each other, not join up. Not knocking how players do it these days, more power to them and times do change. Just saying that today it's done the easy way.

(04-12-2017 10:28 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:36 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:15 AM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 08:26 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  For this reason, many star players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant have gone to other teams in search of championships.

There is no more loyalty to a team. There is no more building of a team around good players. Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.


What are your thoughts?

None of that is Jordan's fault. Jordan made the Bulls a power, he didn't leave to join other players to create a power. Modern players take the easier route by joining up. Not saying that's bad, it's just a different era. However, I give more respect to how Jordan accomplished his goals.

With Rodman and Pippen and Oakley and Sellers and ...

People act like Jordan played in a vacuum, but he was surrounded by talent (including the top rebounder in the NBA for seven straight years in Rodman and another HOFer in Pippen) to go with HOFer Phil Jackson on the bench. It's not like he was a one man show - they were a 3-5 man show.

Jordan went 6-0 in the finals and the only constants in those six were Phil and Pippin and all the other suppirting cast that came through were better for playing with Jordan.

Yep, the constant was Jordan and he stayed with the team that drafted him. If anything, the Bulls fortunes when Jordan left for his baseball experience explains everything. Win three when he's there, win none when he left, win three more when he returned. Can you imagine Bird/Jordan/Magic ever wanting to be on the same team? They wanted to beat each other, not join up. Not knocking how players do it these days, more power to them and times do change. Just saying that today it's done the easy way.

The original Olympic Dream Team was amazing to watch.

(04-12-2017 08:28 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  I'm going to agree with the OP but for another reason.....

Michael Jordan/Nike ruined the game of basketball starting at the high school level on up and changed the way the world looks at the Tennis shoe. You can add others to the list but it starts with those two.

I would also label him the greatest player

Marketing only works if the people buy into it and support it. There's plenty of blame to go around, including the sheepish consumers. Btw, Jordan's shoe of choice up until the NBA was Adidas. Coming out of college, Nike offered him a bigger/better contract than Adidas did, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Let me correct my OP to say that it wasn't Jordan's fault that basketball changed. I think a more accurate explanation is that the game because of Michael Jordan.

He was so popular and so many people consider him the greatest even though he was never #1 in any significant category. Russell had more championships, Chamberlin had more points etc. etc.

I was a fan of Jordan for the first few championships but after that, not so much.

Personally, I though Dr. J had as much athleticism as Jordan.

read bill simmons "book of basketball"...really good book and he breaks down all the different players and rankings and has some great insight...highly recommended book and i'm not even that big of a basketball fan, but like his writing style. the book is about 700 pages though...

(04-11-2017 03:26 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  You have a good point. Does Jordan have the record in any meaningful category?

He def leads in the most fouls by a player never called. At least 7-8 times a game when he shot the ball he would push off on the opposing player. Hell he won 2 of his championships doing that. The most blatant against the Utah Jazz in 1998.

(04-12-2017 02:31 PM)HerdZoned Wrote:  

(04-11-2017 03:26 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  You have a good point. Does Jordan have the record in any meaningful category?

He def leads in the most fouls by a player never called. At least 7-8 times a game when he shot the ball he would push off on the opposing player. Hell he won 2 of his championships doing that. The most blatant against the Utah Jazz in 1998.

Yeah, the "Jordan Rules" didn't exist for no reason. I guess that's what being the best gets one though.

Malone


LA Tech grad Karl Malone, the NBA's #2 All-Time leading scorer.

Career highlights and awards

2× NBA Most Valuable Player (1997, 1999)
14× NBA All-Star (1988–1998, 2000–2002)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1989, 1993)
11× All-NBA First Team (1989–1999)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1988, 2000)
All-NBA Third Team (2001)
3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1997–1999)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1988)
NBA All-Rookie Team (1986)
No. 32 retired by Utah Jazz
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Second-team All-American – NABC (1985)
Southland Player of the Year (1983)
No. 32 retired by Louisiana Tech
Louisiana Tech Athletic Hall of Fame (1992)

Career NBA statistics

Points 36,928 (25.0 ppg)
Rebounds 14,968 (10.1 rpg)
Assists 5,238 (3.5 apg)
Stats at Basketball-Reference.com
Basketball Hall of Fame as player
Medals
[hide]
Men's Basketball
Representing United States
Olympic Games
Gold medal – first place 1992 Barcelona National team
Gold medal – first place 1996 Atlanta National team

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.

What's wrong with that?

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Michael Jordan is considered the best player to ever play the game.

Yet he didn't score the most points or

Had the most triple doubles or

Had the most assists or

The most championships. However, people usually point to his six championships as proof.

For this reason, many star players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant have gone to other teams in search of championships.

There is no more loyalty to a team. There is no more building of a team around good players. Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.


What are your thoughts?

Oscar Robertson is to blame for free agency not MJ. He's also the best player ever not just because he won 6 (should have been 8) rings.

(04-12-2017 10:28 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:36 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:15 AM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 08:26 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-11-2017 01:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  For this reason, many star players such as Lebron James and Kevin Durant have gone to other teams in search of championships.

There is no more loyalty to a team. There is no more building of a team around good players. Now it's just the gathering of talent for that championship.


What are your thoughts?

None of that is Jordan's fault. Jordan made the Bulls a power, he didn't leave to join other players to create a power. Modern players take the easier route by joining up. Not saying that's bad, it's just a different era. However, I give more respect to how Jordan accomplished his goals.

With Rodman and Pippen and Oakley and Sellers and ...

People act like Jordan played in a vacuum, but he was surrounded by talent (including the top rebounder in the NBA for seven straight years in Rodman and another HOFer in Pippen) to go with HOFer Phil Jackson on the bench. It's not like he was a one man show - they were a 3-5 man show.

Jordan went 6-0 in the finals and the only constants in those six were Phil and Pippin and all the other suppirting cast that came through were better for playing with Jordan.

Yep, the constant was Jordan and he stayed with the team that drafted him. If anything, the Bulls fortunes when Jordan left for his baseball experience explains everything. Win three when he's there, win none when he left, win three more when he returned. Can you imagine Bird/Jordan/Magic ever wanting to be on the same team? They wanted to beat each other, not join up. Not knocking how players do it these days, more power to them and times do change. Just saying that today it's done the easy way.

He came back in 94 - 95 & they lost to Knicks in 7 games.

(04-13-2017 11:51 AM)MU ATO Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 10:28 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:36 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:15 AM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 08:26 AM)VA49er Wrote:  None of that is Jordan's fault. Jordan made the Bulls a power, he didn't leave to join other players to create a power. Modern players take the easier route by joining up. Not saying that's bad, it's just a different era. However, I give more respect to how Jordan accomplished his goals.

With Rodman and Pippen and Oakley and Sellers and ...

People act like Jordan played in a vacuum, but he was surrounded by talent (including the top rebounder in the NBA for seven straight years in Rodman and another HOFer in Pippen) to go with HOFer Phil Jackson on the bench. It's not like he was a one man show - they were a 3-5 man show.

Jordan went 6-0 in the finals and the only constants in those six were Phil and Pippin and all the other suppirting cast that came through were better for playing with Jordan.

Yep, the constant was Jordan and he stayed with the team that drafted him. If anything, the Bulls fortunes when Jordan left for his baseball experience explains everything. Win three when he's there, win none when he left, win three more when he returned. Can you imagine Bird/Jordan/Magic ever wanting to be on the same team? They wanted to beat each other, not join up. Not knocking how players do it these days, more power to them and times do change. Just saying that today it's done the easy way.

He came back in 94 - 95 & they lost to Knicks in 7 games.

In fairness, he came back with 17 games left and they lost to eventual conference champs Orlando led by Shaq and Penny.

(04-13-2017 12:01 PM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 11:51 AM)MU ATO Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 10:28 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:36 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 09:15 AM)TribeNiner Wrote:  With Rodman and Pippen and Oakley and Sellers and ...

People act like Jordan played in a vacuum, but he was surrounded by talent (including the top rebounder in the NBA for seven straight years in Rodman and another HOFer in Pippen) to go with HOFer Phil Jackson on the bench. It's not like he was a one man show - they were a 3-5 man show.

Jordan went 6-0 in the finals and the only constants in those six were Phil and Pippin and all the other suppirting cast that came through were better for playing with Jordan.

Yep, the constant was Jordan and he stayed with the team that drafted him. If anything, the Bulls fortunes when Jordan left for his baseball experience explains everything. Win three when he's there, win none when he left, win three more when he returned. Can you imagine Bird/Jordan/Magic ever wanting to be on the same team? They wanted to beat each other, not join up. Not knocking how players do it these days, more power to them and times do change. Just saying that today it's done the easy way.

He came back in 94 - 95 & they lost to Knicks in 7 games.

In fairness, he came back with 17 games left and they lost to eventual conference champs Orlando led by Shaq and Penny.

That's right. They lost in Conf semis to Knicks in 7 in '94 & in '95 they lost in Conf Semis to Magic in 6 games.