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(08-26-2015 08:15 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  

(08-26-2015 08:02 AM)Nacho Wrote:  

(08-26-2015 06:03 AM)goldsworth Wrote:  Loosing to Toledo and Northern Illinois would be a dissapointment. I would expect WMU has the talent to go 9 and 3 this year.

I know but I seem to believe we've always played like crap at those two venues... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cubit won twice at Toledo, once in DeKalb.

That's why Fleck was hired - not to maintain status quo.

Those were bad Toledo teams Cubit beat. Both went 5-7. To put some perspective on it, the '07 team beat Liberty(FCS) in the GB 35-34 and the '09 Rockets lost to 1-11 Miami U in Oxford.

Quote:We don't have the talent to go 9-3?

You could say we do with natural talent, and also chemistry and cohesion, from the players to the coaches' schemes, and how all that plays into it is a factor as to yay or nay as far as expectations go. But in terms of raw potential (as "talent")? No, not as far as expectations are concerned.

Quote:So why do we have the talent to win the MAC next year. Both UT and NIU return a lot of key players then as well.

Because our talent will be better next year + our schedule will be easier. We'll have GA-Southern at home, and will be more prepared (more talented against) their style of play after playing Air Force, @GaS this year, and then at home. Also replace #1 and #5 in the country with Northwestern & Illinois (with a new coach or stumbling Beckman). Add to that NIU & Toledo at home instead of both away. And as a side note, with UMass leaving and the MAC East vs West schedules shuffling some, chances are less we won't be playing both #1 & #2 MAC East teams (BGSU, Ohio) next year. A lot of reasons why one should expect a better record next year -- Schedule + more developed stars.

Quote:GA Southern? Lost a lot of players and are playing without their starting QB. We can't beat them?

We Can. But they also are a very winning team. Last year in FCS they stomped Florida in the swamp. Last year they went blow for blow with highly-ranked GA-Tech. Went undefeated in Sun Belt, and as GASouthern fans will tell you, their backup QB is good and not inexperienced (plus they run a lot), and have a quality program to help fill in the gaps. Now, if their QB gets injured the first game, yeah, that'll be great. :) Either way, we DO have the capability of winning, yes.

But the key concept is the combo-factor of all the games. It's one of the toughest schedules we've Ever faced. The MAC is going to be Better this year, @Toledo, @NIU, @GA-Southern, @Ohio State, and MSU.... plus reigning MAC East Champs BGSU. Throw in Ohio who's never a slouch, and Ball State who should be at least reasonably better (thankfully that's at home), and to say that we should have any "bar" set at only 3 losses this season is too optimistic. POSSIBLE? Yeah. Wisconsin could go 12-1, too.

Quote:NIU is totally beatable.

They are, about as much as Toledo, give or take (we'll see how the season plays out). Last year was NIU's down/adjusting year, we had them at home and BLEW it. Unless you're CMU (oddly enough, those bastards), you'll need more than "we can do it!" to Chalk that up as a win going into DeKalb. But yes, they are beatable. Everyone but Ohio State is technically beatable.

Quote:Frankly I think the schedule sets up just as well this year as next year.

Well, re-evaluate my initial ramblings there. I see it as going on a blind date with a Hottie out of our league (this year) VS getting a mystery-grab-bag-special off POF the next year. A very important difference! :)

Quote:As for what Cubit could or could not do. He won 9 in a year, he beat the the Pig Ten 3?times

Cubit had our team lagging in the last half of his tenure here. He's a better (and a good one) OC than HC in the end. He would not win 9 games with this schedule this year, he'd be struggling to get our team to 6W. I think a key difference is that you're seeing this year's schedule as any-other-year's, while I see it as one of the toughest ever for good reason.

Much the same why BGSU, with Matt Johnson back at QB, and their newer coach getting a year under his belt & settled in, won't get 9W regular season either. Their OOC schedule is crazy! Plus @WMU + Toledo in their MAC West schedule. If they end up being an 8W team, they'll probably be one of the best 8W G5 teams in the country. Scheduling does that for ya. Much like NIU last year being worse than their 10-2 record indicated (although dodging bullets LUCK had a lot to do with it too). Scheduling can affect things either way -- and our schedule's big.

We can't beat a depleted UGS because "they're a very winning team?"

UM is a very winning. Florida is a very winning team. But when they lose key personnel and their QB is out they're not nearly as formidable.

(08-26-2015 08:15 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  

(08-26-2015 08:02 AM)Nacho Wrote:  

(08-26-2015 06:03 AM)goldsworth Wrote:  Loosing to Toledo and Northern Illinois would be a dissapointment. I would expect WMU has the talent to go 9 and 3 this year.

I know but I seem to believe we've always played like crap at those two venues... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cubit won twice at Toledo, once in DeKalb.

That's why Fleck was hired - not to maintain status quo.

I agree. We need to win one or both of those games. NIU should have been a win last season, and Toledo too. These are certainly winnable games. We also need to win the other MAC games. In this league no game can be taken for granted, and the champion always seems to slip up on a game they should have won. We need to avoid this.

Cubit was a solid coach, but he lost many games we should have won, and many times it was because of something he did or didn't do. Things just got a bit stale the last couple of years with Cubit. I would have kept him as coach myself, as overall he was a good coach, good guy, and represented our school well. But at the same time I knew he probably was going to be let go, and I understand that.

This isn't Fleck v Cubit, or at least it shouldn't be. It is about whether WMU is doing well with the program, are we moving in the right direction, are the kids doing well on and off the field, and are we winning as many games as we should be. If not, then criticism will fall squarely on Fleck. If we do well, then lets be sure to acknowledge the same when the time comes.

(08-26-2015 08:15 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  

(08-26-2015 08:02 AM)Nacho Wrote:  

(08-26-2015 06:03 AM)goldsworth Wrote:  Loosing to Toledo and Northern Illinois would be a dissapointment. I would expect WMU has the talent to go 9 and 3 this year.

I know but I seem to believe we've always played like crap at those two venues... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cubit won twice at Toledo, once in DeKalb.

That's why Fleck was hired - not to maintain status quo.

I agree. We need to win one or both of those games. NIU should have been a win last season, and Toledo too. These are certainly winnable games. We also need to win the other MAC games. In this league no game can be taken for granted, and the champion always seems to slip up on a game they should have won. We need to avoid this.

Cubit was a solid coach, but he lost many games we should have won, and many times it was because of something he did or didn't do. Things just got a bit stale the last couple of years with Cubit. I would have kept him as coach myself, as overall he was a good coach, good guy, and represented our school well. But at the same time I knew he probably was going to be let go, and I understand that.

This isn't Fleck v Cubit, or at least it shouldn't be. It is about whether WMU is doing well with the program, are we moving in the right direction, are the kids doing well on and off the field, and are we winning as many games as we should be. If not, then criticism will fall squarely on Fleck. If we do well, then lets be sure to acknowledge the same when the time comes.

Quote:We can't beat a depleted UGS because "they're a very winning team?"

As I said:

Quote:We Can. But they also are a very winning team.

Quote:UM is a very winning.

Not the last few years + needing a new coach. UM's not some winning team coming into it, who's merely reloading this year while also locking & loading to minimize their dip. And oddly enough, Michigan would have Not have whipped Florida in the Swamp the year before last like GA-Southern did. Just saying. :)

Cubit had us "lagging in the last half?" We're 9-15 in Fleck's entire tenure. That's raging success?

See, it's all how you bracket the time frame.

Quote:Cubit had us "lagging in the last half?" We're 9-15 in Fleck's entire tenure. That's raging success?

Fleck was 8-5 in the last half here, and won MAC coach of the year. Cubit was 22-27 in his last half here, and understandably got fired when bottoming out at 4-8 in his last year. I'm not playing games with time-frames, just point out the basics. Fleck still has a lot to prove (and so does WMU football in general -- hopefully it will be Fun seeing that happen!).

Quote:Cubit was a solid coach, but he lost many games we should have won, and many times it was because of something he did or didn't do. Things just got a bit stale the last couple of years with Cubit.

I agree. Going 5-7, 6-6, 7-6, and then capping it off with 4-8. Things were slipping. A few good P5 wins overall, which is great -- but no bowl wins. Key (mainly non-conf) wins, key losses... under .500 in his last 4 years + no standout year within those 4 years of being under .500.

Quote:I would have kept him as coach myself, as overall he was a good coach, good guy, and represented our school well. But at the same time I knew he probably was going to be let go, and I understand that.

I pretty much agree there, too. Although if one wanted to be high-on-expectations, I could not see why anyone would think if Cubit was rolling the way he demonstrated, that we'd be walking into this year expecting to go very possibly 9-3 with this insane schedule (and highly likely not quite as good players recruited coming in last couple years).

A lot of HC hires & fires were done the year we let Cubit go -- and I would have certainly thought twice about it. I probably wouldn't have done it if all we had was a young WR coach who'd be the youngest HC with no OC/DC experience... but luckily we seem to be lucking out with him, which is Good (right? Right?!). :)

(08-26-2015 10:16 AM)toddjnsn Wrote:  

Quote:Cubit had us "lagging in the last half?" We're 9-15 in Fleck's entire tenure. That's raging success?

Fleck was 8-5 in the last half here, and won MAC coach of the year. Cubit was 22-27 in his last half here, and understandably got fired when bottoming out at 4-8 in his last year. I'm not playing games with time-frames, just point out the basics. Fleck still has a lot to prove (and so does WMU football in general -- hopefully it will be Fun seeing that happen!).

Quote:Cubit was a solid coach, but he lost many games we should have won, and many times it was because of something he did or didn't do. Things just got a bit stale the last couple of years with Cubit.

I agree. Going 5-7, 6-6, 7-6, and then capping it off with 4-8. Things were slipping. A few good P5 wins overall, which is great -- but no bowl wins. Key wins, key losses... under .500 in his last 4 years + no standout year within those 4 years of being under .500.

Quote:I would have kept him as coach myself, as overall he was a good coach, good guy, and represented our school well. But at the same time I knew he probably was going to be let go, and I understand that.

I pretty much agree there, too. Although if one wanted to be high-on-expectations, I could not see why anyone would think if Cubit was rolling the way he demonstrated, that we'd be walking into this year expecting to go very possibly 9-3 with this insane schedule (and highly likely not as well recruited players coming in last couple years).

A lot of HC hires & fires were done the year we let Cubit go -- and I would have certainly thought twice about it. I probably wouldn't have done it if all we had was a young WR coach who'd be the youngest HC with no OC/DC experience... but luckily we seem to be lucking out with him, which is Good (right? Right?!). :)

They hyperbole for this schedule is getting a little wild. Our OOC is tough, with the extra B!G game and OSU on the road. Georgia State should be winnable, it's on the road.

We've had tough schedules before with NIU and Toledo on the road. THAT is what we're really talking about, the MAC schedule anyway, the OOC is what it is, a with one more payday game that we earned with three losses at MSU.

I see nothing has changed. It still takes less than two full pages to change any topic into who's a better coach. Fleck or Cubit. When the game starts it's about the 11 guys on offense protecting that small piece of pigskin and the 11 guys on defense trying to get it back. Yes, it's the coaches jobs of preparing them and putting them in the right place. But seriously, do we have to turn every topic into a Cubit vs. Fleck debate?

To the Cubit fans: He's gone and not coming back. Get over it.
To the Fleck fans: He's gone in a few years anyway, either by getting hired by a power conference school or by getting fired.It all depends on how the student athletes do on the field.

Let's just enjoy watching some of the best recruited athletes this conference has ever had play.

Ok John, but just because you said it so eloquently.

(08-26-2015 10:01 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  Cubit had us "lagging in the last half?" We're 9-15 in Fleck's entire tenure. That's raging success?

See, it's all how you bracket the time frame.

We became stagnant and mediocre with Cubit. Flecks first year was terrible. You don't need to be a great debater to convince anyone that he did bad. He was a first year young coach, was making changes, and learning on the fly. Yes, it was bad.

The question now is whether Fleck is doing what he needs to make us successful now. It just seems that he gets a ton of unfair criticism. I get the fair criticism, but some of it seems ridiculous, and as if certain folks who were critical of the hire right after it happened, and then jumped all over the RTB thing, want to perpetuate their largely unfounded hatred for the guy, even in the face of whatever successes or triumphs he may achieve, and do so as a way of avoiding the pain of admitting the guy might have actually been a good hire for the program. I am not pointing finger at you dip, as you generally are fair with your assessments on things (and other times you have just forgotten to take your medication, and thus find the straight jacket you are in to be particularly uncomfortable). Others though are obviously rooting for Flecks failure. That bothers me a bit.

(08-26-2015 10:39 AM)rtletterman Wrote:  Ok John, but just because you said it so eloquently.

I didn't complete my sophomore year because family needs needed me to go back to work so I never learned how to use those expensive words, I'm stuck using Wal-Mart style rollback priced words.

(08-26-2015 10:20 AM)John52168 Wrote:  I see nothing has changed. It still takes less than two full pages to change any topic into who's a better coach. Fleck or Cubit. When the game starts it's about the 11 guys on offense protecting that small piece of pigskin and the 11 guys on defense trying to get it back. Yes, it's the coaches jobs of preparing them and putting them in the right place. But seriously, do we have to turn every topic into a Cubit vs. Fleck debate?

To the Cubit fans: He's gone and not coming back. Get over it.
To the Fleck fans: He's gone in a few years anyway, either by getting hired by a power conference school or by getting fired.It all depends on how the student athletes do on the field.

Let's just enjoy watching some of the best recruited athletes this conference has ever had play.

This.

We can like both coaches, no need to choose who was/is better. Personally, I find both to be outstanding individuals outside of football, too. WMU has been lucky to have both.

Quote:Others though are obviously rooting for Flecks failure. That bothers me a bit.

I think that's the key issue. I can understand rolling the eyes of firing Cubit SO QUICKLY after the EMU loss to end a 4-8 season after 3 seasons of going .500 regular season -- but without some Hot Hire ready for the nabbing. Obviously some internal issues on that end as to why that was so swift, but one can't complain that given even a decent catch, at the end of the day -- that's business... gotta expect that. We shouldn't be happy being .500 year after year After getting settled into a HC gig -- then having a bad year on top of that as if it's the coach's 1st year or something. But I can understand that his first 4 years were definitely Good, so one doesn't want to run for a questionable applicant.

That's kind of what we did -- took a risk. But why Wouldn't one want it to pay off? If Drunken Beckman somehow manages to stay on at Illinois for another year due to help of Cubit, by going 7-6 without any good hires available and us going 7-6 ourselves -- would some people be secretly rooting for Illinois next year to beat us? Or even be torn, as if their son's playing for Illinois? Heck, I think you'd have some NIU fans rooting for us more than some particular WMU fans in a Fleck vs Cubit game @Illinois (and NIU fans aren't fans of PJ bolting). :)

All in all... I think it's some people bitter about Cubit being tossed, thus Expecting Fleck -- with all his "bro" comradery & exhuberance with his players -- to be like the new Urban Meyer in order to justify it. Dunno why the angst! It's College Football! One should be Excited we went 8-5 last year, and excited about us developing our team this year for the very big clean-house year next year! :)

It's not about Cubit vs. Fleck or who likes who.

It's about Fleck being hired to do BETTER ("Elite!") than his predecessor, and having been given all the tools to do so.

The comparison was between Cubit's last three years where program was described as "stale" or "stagnating" and "hit bottom," and what will be Fleck's first three.

He needs to go 8-4 to equal Cubit's record for that time. He needs to finish higher than third in West and win a bowl game to show improvement.

(08-26-2015 11:24 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  It's not about Cubit vs. Fleck or who likes who.

It's about Fleck being hired to do BETTER ("Elite!") than his predecessor, and having been given all the tools to do so.

The comparison was between Cubit's last three years where program was described as "stale" or "stagnating" and "hit bottom," and what will be Fleck's first three.

He needs to go 8-4 to equal Cubit's record for that time. He needs to finish higher than third in West and win a bowl game to show improvement.

Like him or not, it was obvious WMU football was never going to win a championship under the leadership of Bill Cubit. We were a mediocre program, that seldom won a "Big Game."

A change was necessary. Championships are why the game is played.

Whether Fleck is the answer remains to be seen (I hate the RTB crap), but status quo with Cubit was not. A bold change was needed if championship banners are to fly again at Waldo.

(08-26-2015 11:24 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  It's not about Cubit vs. Fleck or who likes who.

It's about Fleck being hired to do BETTER ("Elite!") than his predecessor, and having been given all the tools to do so.

The comparison was between Cubit's last three years where program was described as "stale" or "stagnating" and "hit bottom," and what will be Fleck's first three.

He needs to go 8-4 to equal Cubit's record for that time. He needs to finish higher than third in West and win a bowl game to show improvement.

True. His record needs to be better than Cubits was by the end of his tenure at WMU or he should be let go. Fleck was hired to be better that what was happening under Cubit at that point in Cubits tenure. If Cubits last three years were as good as his best few years he wouldn't have been let go.

My suspicion though is that some of you would be antagonistic to Fleck and his "new school" approach to coaching even if he won 10 games and a bowl game each of his first two seasons. The criticism started before the first snap of his coaching career, with only a few acknowledgements of any accomplishments he may have had, and even those are offered only begrudgingly.

lets see how we do the next couple of seasons.

(08-26-2015 10:20 AM)John52168 Wrote:  I see nothing has changed. It still takes less than two full pages to change any topic into who's a better coach. Fleck or Cubit. When the game starts it's about the 11 guys on offense protecting that small piece of pigskin and the 11 guys on defense trying to get it back. Yes, it's the coaches jobs of preparing them and putting them in the right place. But seriously, do we have to turn every topic into a Cubit vs. Fleck debate?

To the Cubit fans: He's gone and not coming back. Get over it.
To the Fleck fans: He's gone in a few years anyway, either by getting hired by a power conference school or by getting fired.It all depends on how the student athletes do on the field.

Let's just enjoy watching some of the best recruited athletes this conference has ever had play.

It's not about being a Cubit fan, it's about keeping things in perspective when it comes to Fleck. We've anointed him to a status he hasn't earned.

(08-26-2015 12:44 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  It's not about being a Cubit fan, it's about keeping things in perspective when it comes to Fleck. We've anointed him to a status he hasn't earned.

Yes, we've won eight games, finished third, and lost bowl games before.