(04-21-2014 08:43 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 12:04 AM)Tigersmoke Wrote:  Why does every beast fan bring up when they had 3 of 4 teams in the final four? Yet no one ever says who the 4th team was!! Well guess what guys that team is also in the AAC and that team was MEMPHIS!!!!!!. So this conference has history.

The parents of current recruits probably weren't even the age their kids are now when Nova and GT won their titles.
The kids looking to commit to a program now, weren't even a glint in their parents eye.
Today's recruits only know about the former Big East through the schools that turned out the lights, primarily UCONN.

Strange then that 13 of the top 100 recruits committed to the Big East and only 4 to the AAC.

(04-19-2014 05:00 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  What I heard was that Buzz got pushed out at Marquette.

(04-21-2014 02:33 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Marquette lost a good coach who had worn out his welcome there.

Link?

(04-21-2014 09:45 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 01:54 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 12:04 AM)Tigersmoke Wrote:  Why does every beast fan bring up when they had 3 of 4 teams in the final four? Yet no one ever says who the 4th team was!! Well guess what guys that team is also in the AAC and that team was MEMPHIS!!!!!!. So this conference has history.

You're counting Memphis? That final four was vacated, which means that it doesn't count.

YES counting it. It happened and I'll be d@mned if I will ever let the NCAA's corrupt selective enforcement be a moral barometer! And I'll go ahead and pre-emptive for you --- it was due to an administrative error that today is totally legal ---the maximum Pell Grant money was extended during a time when the NCAA set a bar a bit lower.

You can spin but really absolute BS unless you also state that Kansas should have its national title "vacated" all it really means is that some of us are not prima donnas. Duke gets nothing for that stuff either.

Ask our Pirates' brethren if they are holding their collective breathe waiting on the NCCA to vacate multiple national titles via blatant academic FRAUD seemingly via politics and the holier than thou, self righteous "The Carolina Way". As a UConn fan, you should be aiming scorn at the blue bloods due to the BS of the Huskies missing the 2013 due to maintaining academic credibility unlike a diploma mill in Chapel Hill that is rewarding for doing so.

it hurts that your only 2 Final fours in the last 40 years were both vacated, doesn't it?

(04-21-2014 10:48 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 10:32 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(04-19-2014 05:00 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  What I heard was that Buzz got pushed out at Marquette.

Link?

What he heard = what he made up in the hopes of saving face for the Big East. Every story I saw was about Buzz wanting out.

Then you didn't read very much. Fact is that Buzz's buy out was virtually eliminated, meaning he could be let go with almost no compensation. Add to that the fact that he had major conflicts with the administration and it's clear that he hit the "eject" button before they could get rid of him.

Do you really think that he wanted was looking for a job that would cut his par 3/4 of a million dollars?

(04-21-2014 11:39 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 10:48 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 10:32 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(04-19-2014 05:00 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  What I heard was that Buzz got pushed out at Marquette.

Link?

What he heard = what he made up in the hopes of saving face for the Big East. Every story I saw was about Buzz wanting out.

Of course....the big east doesn't even get listed with the major conferences in the ESPN studios while the American gets included. This is a major pill to take for people like Milky. Now down to making up stories. Embarrassing really...

What lists are those?

This is the nbe Commish... Val Ackerman



I didn't even know her name until I googled it, and that's a symptom of the problem for the nbe. This is the face of the nbe; and her appointment doesn't seem like it was given much more thought than Meatball, who wasn't exactly hired for his public speaking skills. I haven't heard her talk but she has a face for radio.

I am thankful that the AAC has had Aresco through this period of transition. He's made a great point man, and is out front extolling the achievements of our membership. He knows what needs to be done because he's been on the other side of the negotiating table.

The nbe just doesn't seem to act with a lot of foresight; and that is seen in their choice of television partner as well as hiring Ackerman, who seems to be little more than a symbolic figure.

Of course, she may be all over FS1 and most of us would never know.

(04-21-2014 02:35 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  UConn's replacement won the tournament.

Let's just see what happens with the recruiting class. As Providence has tought us recently, it's not a lock at all.

FS1 is an albatross. Until FS1 gets some other properties it's going to be basically a niche channel, with more folks tuning in for UFC or Motocross than they are basketball...

AAC has only 5 years left in their deal now. If the keep up with how they did this year, they will get money...

You are delusional if you think Butler isn't a questionmark. The only reason they won as many games this year as they did is they played all cupcakes OOC(302nd in the country). Stevens maybe wasn't the only coach Butler had, but Stevens was the coach that took them to their highest places(besides him, they had never advanced past the sweet 16).

This year- 14,16,32,34. 2 top 30 recruits.
last year- 17,27. 2 top 30 recruits
2012- 21(Ledo, never played with PC), 23- 2 top 30 recruits
2011- 25- 1 top 30 recruit

So 7 top 30 recruits over the last 4 years, with 6 having played. Only 3 top 20. There's a difference between getting a top 30 and getting a 31-40. But even using your metric, getting 12 top 40 players last 4 years- that's not good. If that trend continues with the NBA going to a 2 year rule, that's going to hurt the Big East. Most of the big names will just continue to go to Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Kansas, Arizona, etc. Those 5 schools got 14 of the top 30 this year. Just imagine how it's going to be when those guys stay 2 years.

Big Ten only has had 15 top 30 recruits in the last 4 years. But even with that- they've had how many final 4's/title game appearances? But, it's not like they're dripping with top 30's like you make it out to be.

Steve, what's your hang up with the number 30? Seriously.

7 top 30(6 playing) 11 top 40(10 playing)- neither one are great numbers at all. That's like 2-3 top 40 players a year. If that trend continues with the NBA going to a 2 year rule, that's going to be really bad for the Big East. The AAC had 10.... So, if the AAC is only 1 worse than the Big East- and you think the Big East is great. What does that make the AAC?

Also, the 30- that's generally the number of 5 star players.

Just looking last 4 years- had about an average of 10 freshmen going pro a year.

(04-21-2014 02:33 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(04-20-2014 11:00 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  [quote='Melky Cabrera' pid='10688009' dateline='1398051683']




Melky, I know you hate having Temple in your conference and that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion, but let’s look at programs with question marks.

Butler has 2 final fours in the past 5 seasons but that was in 2010 and 11. Since then they have made the tournament once and was knocked out in the round of 32. If you know basketball you can’t say you’re not concerned about this program. New coach, bad first season in the conference and 4 players have transferred out since mid Feburary including one of their top freshmen Elijah Brown.

Creighton has made the tourney 3 times in the last 5 seasons (12, 13, 14) knocked out in the round of 32 all 3 times. They lose 4 seniors, the player of the year, 65% of their scoring and 50% of their rebounding and 4 of their top 5 players in minutes played. You think they have a few question marks?

One of the Big East bright lights from last season was Providence. They made the NCAA for the first time since 2004 and were knocked out in the round of 64. They are losing 4 seniors, 2 of their top scorers who combined for 45% of their scoring, and their top rebounder. From what I understand the prospects at point guard are not looking too deep for next season.

Nova was ranked all of last season last year, but if you look at their body of work over the past 5 seasons they have made it to the NCAA 4 times being knocked out in the round of 32 twice and the round of 64 twice. Ironically enough the same performance Temple had over the last 5 years.

G’Town one of the BE flagships is coming off its worst season in a long time and if you look at their last 5 seasons they made 4 trips to the NCAA and they have only made it past the round of 64 once and then lost in the round of 32. Their fans are screaming for JTIIIs head because of their inability in March.

That’s 5 of the 10 programs in the conference with some major question marks. Let alone Marquette has a new coach who has zero head coaching experience, maybe he will do great but you can’t say that’s not a question mark. St Johns is a program in major turmoil and you must agree one of the biggest underachieving programs in the country. One player declaring early, two players transferring out, and then one not transferring out, Jordan spent most of his free time last season in Philly. Lavin is supposedly a great recruiter but as a game day coach he leaves lot’s to be desired. Big time question marks there. DePaul and Seton Hall are just like the new schools coming into the AAC with no recent NCAA history. Neither of those 2 have made the tourney since 2004 and 2006. SHU has shown some nice signs of improvement last season but how has all the great BE recruiting worked out for DePaul?

Xavier is probably the most stable program with the best track record of tournament success over the past 5 seasons and they lost last season in the play in game.

You're being completely silly.

First of all, Providence did not lose 4 seniors. They lost 2. They return 3 starters, their 6th man, a former starter who was injured this year, and they bring in 5 top recruits. They're in great shape.

Marquette lost a good coach who had worn out his welcome there. Once again, they will bring in a coach with no prior head coaching experience - just like Tom Cream and pretty much like Buzz, who had only one year of prior HC experience.

I am not concerned about Butler in the slightest. Every program goes through ups and downs. You're acting like 2010-11 was last century instead of 3 years ago. They are a program that has had success with every one of the 4 coaches before Miller. They'll continue to have success. That's what good programs do. They lost their leading scorer for the season with an injury last summer. That made a tremendous difference as they lost a dozen of their games by single digits - 4 of them in OT.

So what that Creighton is rebuilding. Is that a surpass that teams rebuild? Creighton is a program, not just this year's team. That program has been to the NCAA tournament 10 times in the past 16 years. They'll be back.

I have no idea what your nitpick over Villanova is. They're loaded coming back next year, losing only one player forma top ten team. The coach has taken them to two Elite 8's and a Final four in the past decade. No one wins every year. Have you noticed Coach K's early exits in recent years? I guess that Duke is in trouble by your thinking, right?

Let Georgetown fans scream all they want. Again, see Duke. Schools go through those kinds of runs. Just look at the recruiting class that JT III is bringing in for next year - 3 players from the top 35, one of who is a top 15 prospect. They too will be just fine.

St. John's is in turmoil, but they still have a lot of talent. Jordan was a freshman whose family member was murdered while he was dealing with the normal adjustments of a college freshman. No wonder he spent a lot of time in Philly. If St. John's is the biggest problem the conference has, then they have a lot to be thankful for. Imagine that one of their programs is underachieving. Never happens, right?

You're comparing SHU and DePaul to the new teams coming into the AAC because they've struggled in the past 10 years? Seriously? You're comparing 2 programs with tough recent history to teams with no history in their entire existence. SHU is following right in SMU's footsteps. Bringing in a two top 50 recruits next year, one of them top 15. Their new coach has them moving in the right direction.

Meanwhile Xavier lost a game in the tournament while dealing with an injured player? Heavens! The sky is falling!

Providence does lose 4 players. 2 of the top 6(which is just about all they played) and then their next 2 players. Cotton played the highest percentage of minutes this year, and it's a real question how they'll replace him. You can say all you want about Dunn, but he's got major injury issues the last 2 years. They are far from a lock...

And I'm sorry but Butler had 1 special recruiting class. To act like they are just ironclad they'll be sucessful, I bet you were saying those exact same things about DePaul 8 years ago. Now look at them. Butler did struggle with the tougher A10 2 years ago, and cratered this year in the Big East. All the transfers are troubling for sure.

(04-21-2014 02:41 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 11:39 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 10:48 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 10:32 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(04-19-2014 05:00 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  What I heard was that Buzz got pushed out at Marquette.

Link?

What he heard = what he made up in the hopes of saving face for the Big East. Every story I saw was about Buzz wanting out.

Of course....the big east doesn't even get listed with the major conferences in the ESPN studios while the American gets included. This is a major pill to take for people like Milky. Now down to making up stories. Embarrassing really...

What lists are those?

The ESPN studios for college basketball games has a backdrop that includes the logos of the P5 + American. It was on a wood looking backdrop in the main studio for college basketball discussion.

I wish I had a psychological profile on Melky. I just don't really understand how a troll operates or why he does what he does.

(04-21-2014 02:38 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  it hurts that your only 2 Final fours in the last 40 years were both vacated, doesn't it?

No, it only hurts that I lower myself to argue with j@ck@$$ statements written like a 4th grader. Petulant posts without even the maturity to respond to the content. I address your points ... now volleyed back with sheeple acceptance of the NCAA's corruption. I suppose Darrell Arthur's violations are nothing in the witch hunt world of "strict liability".

Oh, and in advance, your posts often have minimal content overwhelmed with juvenile soundbites. And for the record, please notice that I did not insult you as a human being ... just your posts. For all I know, you may in reality be the nicest person on this message board?

(04-21-2014 02:43 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  This is the nbe Commish... Val Ackerman



I didn't even know her name until I googled it, and that's a symptom of the problem for the nbe. This is the face of the nbe; and her appointment doesn't seem like it was given much more thought than Meatball, who wasn't exactly hired for his public speaking skills. I haven't heard her talk but she has a face for radio.

I am thankful that the AAC has had Aresco through this period of transition. He's made a great point man, and is out front extolling the achievements of our membership. He knows what needs to be done because he's been on the other side of the negotiating table.

The nbe just doesn't seem to act with a lot of foresight; and that is seen in their choice of television partner as well as hiring Ackerman, who seems to be little more than a symbolic figure.

Of course, she may be all over FS1 and most of us would never know.

Never knew the nBE had a lady for their commissioner. Not that is matters, but it is weird that nobody knows she exists. Aresco is constantly on major networks pimping the league.

(04-21-2014 02:33 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(04-20-2014 11:00 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  [quote='Melky Cabrera' pid='10688009' dateline='1398051683']




Melky, I know you hate having Temple in your conference and that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion, but let’s look at programs with question marks.

Butler has 2 final fours in the past 5 seasons but that was in 2010 and 11. Since then they have made the tournament once and was knocked out in the round of 32. If you know basketball you can’t say you’re not concerned about this program. New coach, bad first season in the conference and 4 players have transferred out since mid Feburary including one of their top freshmen Elijah Brown.

Creighton has made the tourney 3 times in the last 5 seasons (12, 13, 14) knocked out in the round of 32 all 3 times. They lose 4 seniors, the player of the year, 65% of their scoring and 50% of their rebounding and 4 of their top 5 players in minutes played. You think they have a few question marks?

One of the Big East bright lights from last season was Providence. They made the NCAA for the first time since 2004 and were knocked out in the round of 64. They are losing 4 seniors, 2 of their top scorers who combined for 45% of their scoring, and their top rebounder. From what I understand the prospects at point guard are not looking too deep for next season.

Nova was ranked all of last season last year, but if you look at their body of work over the past 5 seasons they have made it to the NCAA 4 times being knocked out in the round of 32 twice and the round of 64 twice. Ironically enough the same performance Temple had over the last 5 years.

G’Town one of the BE flagships is coming off its worst season in a long time and if you look at their last 5 seasons they made 4 trips to the NCAA and they have only made it past the round of 64 once and then lost in the round of 32. Their fans are screaming for JTIIIs head because of their inability in March.

That’s 5 of the 10 programs in the conference with some major question marks. Let alone Marquette has a new coach who has zero head coaching experience, maybe he will do great but you can’t say that’s not a question mark. St Johns is a program in major turmoil and you must agree one of the biggest underachieving programs in the country. One player declaring early, two players transferring out, and then one not transferring out, Jordan spent most of his free time last season in Philly. Lavin is supposedly a great recruiter but as a game day coach he leaves lot’s to be desired. Big time question marks there. DePaul and Seton Hall are just like the new schools coming into the AAC with no recent NCAA history. Neither of those 2 have made the tourney since 2004 and 2006. SHU has shown some nice signs of improvement last season but how has all the great BE recruiting worked out for DePaul?

Xavier is probably the most stable program with the best track record of tournament success over the past 5 seasons and they lost last season in the play in game.

You're being completely silly.

First of all, Providence did not lose 4 seniors. They lost 2. They return 3 starters, their 6th man, a former starter who was injured this year, and they bring in 5 top recruits. They're in great shape.

Marquette lost a good coach who had worn out his welcome there. Once again, they will bring in a coach with no prior head coaching experience - just like Tom Cream and pretty much like Buzz, who had only one year of prior HC experience.

I am not concerned about Butler in the slightest. Every program goes through ups and downs. You're acting like 2010-11 was last century instead of 3 years ago. They are a program that has had success with every one of the 4 coaches before Miller. They'll continue to have success. That's what good programs do. They lost their leading scorer for the season with an injury last summer. That made a tremendous difference as they lost a dozen of their games by single digits - 4 of them in OT.

So what that Creighton is rebuilding. Is that a surpass that teams rebuild? Creighton is a program, not just this year's team. That program has been to the NCAA tournament 10 times in the past 16 years. They'll be back.

I have no idea what your nitpick over Villanova is. They're loaded coming back next year, losing only one player forma top ten team. The coach has taken them to two Elite 8's and a Final four in the past decade. No one wins every year. Have you noticed Coach K's early exits in recent years? I guess that Duke is in trouble by your thinking, right?

Let Georgetown fans scream all they want. Again, see Duke. Schools go through those kinds of runs. Just look at the recruiting class that JT III is bringing in for next year - 3 players from the top 35, one of who is a top 15 prospect. They too will be just fine.

St. John's is in turmoil, but they still have a lot of talent. Jordan was a freshman whose family member was murdered while he was dealing with the normal adjustments of a college freshman. No wonder he spent a lot of time in Philly. If St. John's is the biggest problem the conference has, then they have a lot to be thankful for. Imagine that one of their programs is underachieving. Never happens, right?

You're comparing SHU and DePaul to the new teams coming into the AAC because they've struggled in the past 10 years? Seriously? You're comparing 2 programs with tough recent history to teams with no history in their entire existence. SHU is following right in SMU's footsteps. Bringing in a two top 50 recruits next year, one of them top 15. Their new coach has them moving in the right direction.

Meanwhile Xavier lost a game in the tournament while dealing with an injured player? Heavens! The sky is falling!

Melky, while I may be silly, my critique of the Big East is based on facts, your reply is based on opinion.

Providence, I could be wrong, but according to their roster Bancroft, Cotton, Goldsboro, and Batts are all listed as Seniors. Before you start with the minutes argument Bancroft and Goldsboro averaged about 6 minutes a game. Also, as far as the great recruiting class, how did it work out with top 150 recruit Bullock and top 50 recruit Austin last season? How many minutes did they play?

How do you explain Butler losing 4 recruits since February? How is that not a program in turmoil? Your opinion is they will continue their success, but what gives you that indication besides what happened 3 seasons ago? In the 2012-13 season when Butler made it to the NCAA they couldn’t even win the A10, they finished third behind VCU and St Louis tied with LaSalle and dare I say it, Temple.

Creighton, ok, we can look at revisionist history, from 1999 – 2007 they made the NCAA 7 times, losing in the first round 5 of those 7 times, making it to the second round and losing there twice. Of those 7 appearances 6 of them were because they won their conference tournament.

Yes, Novas success was back in the days of the old Big East. You always knock Temple for not being able to recruit to the level of a power conference, yet Nova had the head and shoulders Big East recruiting advantage over the lowly A10 Temple program, all the Big East money, history, and ESPN coverage and yet that equates to an NCAA record that’s identical to Temples over the last 5 seasons.

G’Town, see above. All the Big East recruiting firepower, top 35 recruits and all they can manage is 1 win in their last 4 appearances in the NCAA? They will be just fine? Lets look at their NCAA history a little closer.
2014 Didn’t make the tournament.
2013 as #2 seed they lost in the round of 64 to a #15.
2012 as a #2 lost to a #11 in the round of 32.
2011 as a #6 lost to an 11 in the round of 64.
2010 as a #3 lost to a #14 in the round of 64.

Definitely no concern there, all that recruiting power of the Big East is paying off in March.

St Johns gets a pass? A founding member of the Big East, with the hot bed of basketball recruiting New York City at their door, 7th winningest program of all time (behind Temple), Big East recruiting firepower, MSG for home games and all their history and they manage 1 NCAA appearance since 2003 and only 5 in the last 20 years and that’s not concerning?

I’m being generous comparing SMU the runner up in the NIT (that’s right the same NIT that was set up for St Johns to make a run as a #1 seed at home playing at their on campus arena where they basically mailed it in losing to #8 Robert Morris by 11) to SHU who can’t compare in talent or coaching who didn’t make any post season tournament last year.

The reality is the Big East is not nearly as strong as you would like it to be and Lunadris assessment is spot on.

(04-21-2014 03:38 PM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  Never knew the nBE had a lady for their commissioner.

She took the job last June, right before the split became official.

Quote:Not that it matters, but it is weird that nobody knows she exists. Aresco is constantly on major networks pimping the league.

She was commish of the WNBA for about 9 years.

She gets interviewed/quoted a lot on FSN, FS1, etc.

(04-21-2014 03:45 PM)NYCTUFan Wrote:  

(04-21-2014 02:33 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(04-20-2014 11:00 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  [quote='Melky Cabrera' pid='10688009' dateline='1398051683']




Melky, I know you hate having Temple in your conference and that’s fine, you’re entitled to your opinion, but let’s look at programs with question marks.

Butler has 2 final fours in the past 5 seasons but that was in 2010 and 11. Since then they have made the tournament once and was knocked out in the round of 32. If you know basketball you can’t say you’re not concerned about this program. New coach, bad first season in the conference and 4 players have transferred out since mid Feburary including one of their top freshmen Elijah Brown.

Creighton has made the tourney 3 times in the last 5 seasons (12, 13, 14) knocked out in the round of 32 all 3 times. They lose 4 seniors, the player of the year, 65% of their scoring and 50% of their rebounding and 4 of their top 5 players in minutes played. You think they have a few question marks?

One of the Big East bright lights from last season was Providence. They made the NCAA for the first time since 2004 and were knocked out in the round of 64. They are losing 4 seniors, 2 of their top scorers who combined for 45% of their scoring, and their top rebounder. From what I understand the prospects at point guard are not looking too deep for next season.

Nova was ranked all of last season last year, but if you look at their body of work over the past 5 seasons they have made it to the NCAA 4 times being knocked out in the round of 32 twice and the round of 64 twice. Ironically enough the same performance Temple had over the last 5 years.

G’Town one of the BE flagships is coming off its worst season in a long time and if you look at their last 5 seasons they made 4 trips to the NCAA and they have only made it past the round of 64 once and then lost in the round of 32. Their fans are screaming for JTIIIs head because of their inability in March.

That’s 5 of the 10 programs in the conference with some major question marks. Let alone Marquette has a new coach who has zero head coaching experience, maybe he will do great but you can’t say that’s not a question mark. St Johns is a program in major turmoil and you must agree one of the biggest underachieving programs in the country. One player declaring early, two players transferring out, and then one not transferring out, Jordan spent most of his free time last season in Philly. Lavin is supposedly a great recruiter but as a game day coach he leaves lot’s to be desired. Big time question marks there. DePaul and Seton Hall are just like the new schools coming into the AAC with no recent NCAA history. Neither of those 2 have made the tourney since 2004 and 2006. SHU has shown some nice signs of improvement last season but how has all the great BE recruiting worked out for DePaul?

Xavier is probably the most stable program with the best track record of tournament success over the past 5 seasons and they lost last season in the play in game.

You're being completely silly.

First of all, Providence did not lose 4 seniors. They lost 2. They return 3 starters, their 6th man, a former starter who was injured this year, and they bring in 5 top recruits. They're in great shape.

Marquette lost a good coach who had worn out his welcome there. Once again, they will bring in a coach with no prior head coaching experience - just like Tom Cream and pretty much like Buzz, who had only one year of prior HC experience.

I am not concerned about Butler in the slightest. Every program goes through ups and downs. You're acting like 2010-11 was last century instead of 3 years ago. They are a program that has had success with every one of the 4 coaches before Miller. They'll continue to have success. That's what good programs do. They lost their leading scorer for the season with an injury last summer. That made a tremendous difference as they lost a dozen of their games by single digits - 4 of them in OT.

So what that Creighton is rebuilding. Is that a surpass that teams rebuild? Creighton is a program, not just this year's team. That program has been to the NCAA tournament 10 times in the past 16 years. They'll be back.

I have no idea what your nitpick over Villanova is. They're loaded coming back next year, losing only one player forma top ten team. The coach has taken them to two Elite 8's and a Final four in the past decade. No one wins every year. Have you noticed Coach K's early exits in recent years? I guess that Duke is in trouble by your thinking, right?

Let Georgetown fans scream all they want. Again, see Duke. Schools go through those kinds of runs. Just look at the recruiting class that JT III is bringing in for next year - 3 players from the top 35, one of who is a top 15 prospect. They too will be just fine.

St. John's is in turmoil, but they still have a lot of talent. Jordan was a freshman whose family member was murdered while he was dealing with the normal adjustments of a college freshman. No wonder he spent a lot of time in Philly. If St. John's is the biggest problem the conference has, then they have a lot to be thankful for. Imagine that one of their programs is underachieving. Never happens, right?

You're comparing SHU and DePaul to the new teams coming into the AAC because they've struggled in the past 10 years? Seriously? You're comparing 2 programs with tough recent history to teams with no history in their entire existence. SHU is following right in SMU's footsteps. Bringing in a two top 50 recruits next year, one of them top 15. Their new coach has them moving in the right direction.

Meanwhile Xavier lost a game in the tournament while dealing with an injured player? Heavens! The sky is falling!

Melky, while I may be silly, my critique of the Big East is based on facts, your reply is based on opinion.

Providence, I could be wrong, but according to their roster Bancroft, Cotton, Goldsboro, and Batts are all listed as Seniors. Before you start with the minutes argument Bancroft and Goldsboro averaged about 6 minutes a game. Also, as far as the great recruiting class, how did it work out with top 150 recruit Bullock and top 50 recruit Austin last season? How many minutes did they play?

How do you explain Butler losing 4 recruits since February? How is that not a program in turmoil? Your opinion is they will continue their success, but what gives you that indication besides what happened 3 seasons ago? In the 2012-13 season when Butler made it to the NCAA they couldn’t even win the A10, they finished third behind VCU and St Louis tied with LaSalle and dare I say it, Temple.

Creighton, ok, we can look at revisionist history, from 1999 – 2007 they made the NCAA 7 times, losing in the first round 5 of those 7 times, making it to the second round and losing there twice. Of those 7 appearances 6 of them were because they won their conference tournament.

Yes, Novas success was back in the days of the old Big East. You always knock Temple for not being able to recruit to the level of a power conference, yet Nova had the head and shoulders Big East recruiting advantage over the lowly A10 Temple program, all the Big East money, history, and ESPN coverage and yet that equates to an NCAA record that’s identical to Temples over the last 5 seasons.

G’Town, see above. All the Big East recruiting firepower, top 35 recruits and all they can manage is 1 win in their last 4 appearances in the NCAA? They will be just fine? Lets look at their NCAA history a little closer.
2014 Didn’t make the tournament.
2013 as #2 seed they lost in the round of 64 to a #15.
2012 as a #2 lost to a #11 in the round of 32.
2011 as a #6 lost to an 11 in the round of 64.
2010 as a #3 lost to a #14 in the round of 64.

Definitely no concern there, all that recruiting power of the Big East is paying off in March.

St Johns gets a pass? A founding member of the Big East, with the hot bed of basketball recruiting New York City at their door, 7th winningest program of all time (behind Temple), Big East recruiting firepower, MSG for home games and all their history and they manage 1 NCAA appearance since 2003 and only 5 in the last 20 years and that’s not concerning?

I’m being generous comparing SMU the runner up in the NIT (that’s right the same NIT that was set up for St Johns to make a run as a #1 seed at home playing at their on campus arena where they basically mailed it in losing to #8 Robert Morris by 11) to SHU who can’t compare in talent or coaching who didn’t make any post season tournament last year.

The reality is the Big East is not nearly as strong as you would like it to be and Lunadris assessment is spot on.

You're right about Providence losing 4 seniors. Sorry, but I thought you were talking about seniors who were contributors. Bancroft and Goldsboro almost never played. Losing them is addition by subtraction. Providence is going from a team that had no bench to one that will go 5-6 deep on the bench. They just got better.

All your examples magnify what is simply normal program turnover. Yes, Butler lost some recruits. That happens. When a team loses a coach. But a coach isn't the program. Stevens left Butler in the lurch without a good recruiting class coming in and without the possibility of doing anything about it in July or of having a competitive coaching. Search. Miller will either right the ship, or they will find a better coach, which is what their history has been over the past 25 years of building this program has been. North Carolina had to go through a few coaching changes after Dean Smith retired to find the right guy. But that's what good programs do. Even if the first hire doesn't work out, they are able to attract bright coaches and they eventually find a way.

I said you were being silly because you're nitpicking every little issue which is a normal part of what any program deals with and you are magnifying them to crisis level. At the same time you are ignoring the strengths of these programs like the big recruiting classes coming in at Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall.

Then you make silly claims, comparing Villanova to Temple. Temple has been to 6 tournaments in the past 13 years and never got past the first weekend in any of those 6 tournaments. In that same time frame, Villanova has been to a Final Four, 2 Elite 8's, and 3 Sweet 16's. But you don't see a difference.

Instead you focus on the early exits for programs like Villanova and Georgetown, ignoring the fact that only 8 teams get to the Elite 8 every year. Everyone else goes home. No one is crying crisis at Duke despite the fact that they've had just as spotty record. Coach K went to 10 Final Fours in his first 20 years there but only one in his last 10 years. Program in trouble?

Whether it's you or Lunardi making claims about the Big East, fact is that they're all based on this year. You have to ignore the track record of the past decade to manufacture a crisis. Fact is that they have the 4th highest average of NCAA wins per conference ember over the past decade. Why is this year's tournament more significant than the previous 9 where they had nothing but success?

2014 -
2013 - Marquette to the Elite 8
2912 - Xavier & Marquette to the Sweet16
2011 - Butler to the NC game
2010 - Butler to the NC game
2009 - Villanova to the Final Four
2008 - Xavier to the Elite 8
2007 - Georgetown to the FinalFour
2006 - Villanova to the Elite 8
2005 - Villanova to the Sweet 16
2004 - Xavier to the Elite 8
2003 - Marquette to the Final Four

There aren't too many conferences that can match that level of success with deep runs into the tournament over the past dozen years. But you & Lunardi want to manufacture a crisis out of one season that was bound to come eventually. Must be a Philly Big 5 thing.

NYCTU fan, just to update you on Butlers' transfers.

They are bringing in 2 transfers of their own - Tyler Lewis, a former 4* recruit from NC State and Austin Etherington, a former 3* recruit from Indiana, who will be eligible to play right away. Both have 2 years of eligibility left. They are added to 2 3* freshmen who are coming in. Their scholarship allotment is completely full.

That was the problem with your analysis. It only gave half the story. Overall, the turnover represents an upgrade in talent for Butler since the players who transferred out were back ups who were sitting at the end of the bench. Their dissatisfaction was typical of almost all transfers - not enough playing time. They were not upset with the coach. In fact, NBA Coach Mike Brown was quoted as saying he was sorry that his son was leaving because they love the school and they love Coach Miller.

Butler will be better next year not only because of the influx of talent, but because they return their leading scorer who missed the season with injury, which was at the root of most of their problems this year.

This is not a sign of a program in turmoil, as you inferred. Transfers happen everywhere - including Tempe, who just lost Anthony Lee when he transferred out. Unfortunately for Temple, Lee wasn't a scrub. Should we be talking about Temple as a program in crisis?

(04-22-2014 06:34 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Whether it's you or Lunardi making claims about the Big East, fact is that they're all based on this year. You have to ignore the track record of the past decade to manufacture a crisis. Fact is that they have the 4th highest average of NCAA wins per conference ember over the past decade. Why is this year's tournament more significant than the previous 9 where they had nothing but success?

2014 -
2013 - Marquette to the Elite 8
2912 - Xavier & Marquette to the Sweet16
2011 - Butler to the NC game
2010 - Butler to the NC game
2009 - Villanova to the Final Four
2008 - Xavier to the Elite 8
2007 - Georgetown to the FinalFour
2006 - Villanova to the Elite 8
2005 - Villanova to the Sweet 16
2004 - Xavier to the Elite 8
2003 - Marquette to the Final Four

There aren't too many conferences that can match that level of success with deep runs into the tournament over the past dozen years. But you & Lunardi want to manufacture a crisis out of one season that was bound to come eventually. Must be a Philly Big 5 thing.

Just looking the AAC has had 1 fewer sweet 16 run over the past dozen years.
2014- UConn title
2012- Cincy sweet 16
2011- UConn title
2009- UConn Final 4, Memphis sweet 16
2008- Memphis final
2007- Memphis elite 8
2006- UConn,Memphis Elite 8
2004- UConn title
2003- UConn sweet 16

both with 5 final 4(AAC with 3 titles though). AAC with 8 elite 8's to BE with 9.

SEC just with Florida and Kentucky has had 12 elite 8's in the last 12 years. Add in LSU and Tennessee and you have 14. So I think I would say every big conference can match or come real close to what the Big East has done.

AS far as Providence- you act like replacing Cotton is going to be easy. He played the most minutes of anyone in the country per game for a team this year. Guys like that are not easy to replace at all. In 21 conference games this year- he didn't play in 12 minutes. He had 4 games where he played 50 minutes. He is going to be tougher for Providence to replace than it will be for McDermott at Creighton.

(04-22-2014 08:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(04-22-2014 06:34 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Whether it's you or Lunardi making claims about the Big East, fact is that they're all based on this year. You have to ignore the track record of the past decade to manufacture a crisis. Fact is that they have the 4th highest average of NCAA wins per conference ember over the past decade. Why is this year's tournament more significant than the previous 9 where they had nothing but success?

2014 -
2013 - Marquette to the Elite 8
2912 - Xavier & Marquette to the Sweet16
2011 - Butler to the NC game
2010 - Butler to the NC game
2009 - Villanova to the Final Four
2008 - Xavier to the Elite 8
2007 - Georgetown to the FinalFour
2006 - Villanova to the Elite 8
2005 - Villanova to the Sweet 16
2004 - Xavier to the Elite 8
2003 - Marquette to the Final Four

There aren't too many conferences that can match that level of success with deep runs into the tournament over the past dozen years. But you & Lunardi want to manufacture a crisis out of one season that was bound to come eventually. Must be a Philly Big 5 thing.

Just looking the AAC has had 1 fewer sweet 16 run over the past dozen years.
2014- UConn title
2012- Cincy sweet 16
2011- UConn title
2009- UConn Final 4, Memphis sweet 16
2008- Memphis final
2007- Memphis elite 8
2006- UConn,Memphis Elite 8
2004- UConn title
2003- UConn sweet 16

both with 5 final 4(AAC with 3 titles though). AAC with 8 elite 8's to BE with 9.

SEC just with Florida and Kentucky has had 12 elite 8's in the last 12 years. Add in LSU and Tennessee and you have 14. So I think I would say every big conference can match or come real close to what the Big East has done.

AS far as Providence- you act like replacing Cotton is going to be easy. He played the most minutes of anyone in the country per game for a team this year. Guys like that are not easy to replace at all. In 21 conference games this year- he didn't play in 12 minutes. He had 4 games where he played 50 minutes. He is going to be tougher for Providence to replace than it will be for McDermott at Creighton.

Steve! Please, I'm asking you nicely. Quote me accurately. I never said that replacing Cotton would be easy. You pay attention to detail, so you know that. I said that Providence would be deeper. And it's not like they're replacing Cotton with a scrub. They're replacing him with a guy who was a top 20 ruin who will have a legit backup in 3* recruit Kyron Cartwright. I know about Dunn's shoulder surgery, but that's just one of the unknowns going into a season that every team faces.

The fact is that very few conferences can match the Big East's consistency in the tournament. I wasn't making that statement for the purpose of comparing them to anyone else, but to dispense with the idea that they are a conference in crisis, which idea has been promoted as a result of the early exits this year. The point is that if the Big East is doing as well as or better than every big conference, then they're in grat shape and not in trouble.

Certainly the next tier can't match the Big East's run in the tournament, making comparisons with the A10 and the Mountain West totally invalid. Here's how the Big East stacks up with number of tournament wins per member over the past 10 years, sunning next year's conference membership:

7.7 - ACC
7.4 - Big XII
6.6 - B1G
5.7 - Big East
5.6 - SEC
5.1 - PAC-12
3.7 - American
1.9 - A10
1.4 - WCC
1.4 - MWC
1.2 - MVC

Combine that wit 17 ofScout's top 100 recruits signed for next year and that doesn't forecast a conference in crisis for next year as you so often claim.

The Big East is not doing as well or better than every big conference. They just aren't. Last 5 years Big East has 28 tournament wins. 18 were from 2 schools- Marquette and Butler. 4 of the 10 schools have 0 wins in the last 5 years(it's actually 10 I think). Georgetown with 1 win. Nova with 2 wins. Creighton with 3(last 3 years- now McDermott is gone).

Now recruiting- using this list(I only see 15 btw)- only 1 top 40 recruit. Generally if you aren't a top 40 recruit, you don't come in and do great 1st year.

Big East is going to come into the season with 1 top 25 team. That's it. Tell me any power conference that is going to be like that... Big East has a ton of questions next year. Everyone but Villanova is a big question mark. Creighton, Butler, Providence, Marquette, Georgetown, Seton Hall. Even Xavier(who lost their best player).

(04-22-2014 08:39 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Certainly the next tier can't match the Big East's run in the tournament, making comparisons with the A10 and the Mountain West totally invalid. Here's how the Big East stacks up with number of tournament wins per member over the past 10 years, sunning next year's conference membership:

7.7 - ACC
7.4 - Big XII
6.6 - B1G
5.7 - Big East
5.6 - SEC
5.1 - PAC-12
3.7 - American
1.9 - A10
1.4 - WCC
1.4 - MWC
1.2 - MVC

Combine that wit 17 ofScout's top 100 recruits signed for next year and that doesn't forecast a conference in crisis for next year as you so often claim.

Butler's 2 Finals runs (which make up a good deal of that win total for the nbe) aren't reflective of their program in its current state (minus Stevens and his stats guy); just like the strength of SMU's program in its current condition isn't reflected by that stat. Or Houston's, Tulsa's, USF's, etc; who are bringing in higher caliber coaching talent, to bring in and develop a higher class of athlete (which conference affiliation and TV exposure limited their ability to do previously).
Much has changed, even since the recruiting classes were signed for next year. Let's see what that list looks like for the nbe after 10 years on FS1.
God Bless you for trying to prove something with that meaningless list. Butler will NEVER make a finals appearance again. They will be the DePaul of the future. Their paradigm shifted once they left for the A10.