(03-15-2024 05:03 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 04:13 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 03:50 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 03:25 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 01:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  If that was attempted, that’s exactly where the Big Ten and SEC say, “We now need 4 AQs each or we’re breaking away.”

I know everyone outside of the P2 either doesn’t want to hear it or are in denial, but everyone outside of the P2 is who would get destroyed in a breakaway. That’s not to say that I think that it’s a good idea for the P2 to split off (as I personally don’t), but the P2 can survive in any format in a way that the G5 certainly can’t and the M2 probably can’t. These other leagues are facing financial suicide if the P2 leave, so they’re agreeing to pretty much everything that the P2 is asking for on the financial front.

It wouldn't hit everyone the same. ODU rarely plays teams from either conference, we'd lose future NCAA credits and CFP money. What's that? 2.5M/year if the system collapsed? Other's rely on those buy games from the big conferences to make ends meet. And the M2 would lose a lot more because they're getting a lot more. But I'm not sure if the P2 are captivating enough to make the money they're making now on their own once the numbers come in. Even with all the best brands in college sports that's still well under half the college fans in the country. B12 fans gonna watch the P2 championships? It'd be a disastrous move by both sides but some of us don't have the bills to pay that Ohio State and Bama do and have been doing it without huge media money. If that well runs dry who will it hurt the worse?

You’re not looking at the future expense side: the Dartmouth basketball team ruling essentially means every single Division I program is probably going to be subject to an employer-employee relationship with their athletes. The courts and regulatory bodies seemingly don’t care about whether teams make revenue or not or even provide athletic scholarships (as Dartmouth and the other Ivies don’t).

The point is that there isn’t an “opting out” other than downgrading to club sports. There is no lower division that’s going to avoid these employee costs, which means that schools that don’t maximize revenue are going to get buried.

Once again, I’m not saying that it’s a good idea for the P2 to split off. The risks that you’ve mentioned are real, but you may be underestimating the expense side that is likely going to skyrocket for every Division I program, which means everyone needs every cent of revenue that they can possibly get.

Which additional costs specifically are you referring to?

If student-athletes are deemed employees, then they will become eligible for direct salaries, wages and benefits. A typical university likely has 500 student-athletes when it competes in the NCAA D1 level. Maybe a frugal university can cut-back to 350 D1 student-athletes, if it's very strategic. A low wage is probably close to $30K, plus benefits makes it $40K per employed-athlete. That is $15M of incremental expenses per year.

You can see my post below, there’s no full scholarship athlete in the country that’s not already making >$50k/year. As what’s probably deemed a seasonal employee on a one year contract so not eligible for benefits and excluded from OT rules. The compensation is also already exempt from FICA taxes and for the educational portion from federal and state taxes as well.

It's kinda hard to say no to money. Doesn't most games against P2 or now M2 teams pay more then the cfp payout a year? Why wouldn't a team like Bowling Green or a North Texas want to play at Ohio State or Texas for a $1.5 million dollars payday? Heck if you're in transition to FBS 3 Payday games pays almost all of the $5 million transition fee. Payday games are to useful to pad the budget with or for smaller schools the only way to pay the bills.

(03-15-2024 02:08 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The G5 isn't going to **** themselves just to help the ACC.

The ACC is going to be in the G5 in a few years.
Just like the PAC.

(03-15-2024 05:03 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 04:13 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 03:50 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 03:25 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 01:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  If that was attempted, that’s exactly where the Big Ten and SEC say, “We now need 4 AQs each or we’re breaking away.”

I know everyone outside of the P2 either doesn’t want to hear it or are in denial, but everyone outside of the P2 is who would get destroyed in a breakaway. That’s not to say that I think that it’s a good idea for the P2 to split off (as I personally don’t), but the P2 can survive in any format in a way that the G5 certainly can’t and the M2 probably can’t. These other leagues are facing financial suicide if the P2 leave, so they’re agreeing to pretty much everything that the P2 is asking for on the financial front.

It wouldn't hit everyone the same. ODU rarely plays teams from either conference, we'd lose future NCAA credits and CFP money. What's that? 2.5M/year if the system collapsed? Other's rely on those buy games from the big conferences to make ends meet. And the M2 would lose a lot more because they're getting a lot more. But I'm not sure if the P2 are captivating enough to make the money they're making now on their own once the numbers come in. Even with all the best brands in college sports that's still well under half the college fans in the country. B12 fans gonna watch the P2 championships? It'd be a disastrous move by both sides but some of us don't have the bills to pay that Ohio State and Bama do and have been doing it without huge media money. If that well runs dry who will it hurt the worse?

You’re not looking at the future expense side: the Dartmouth basketball team ruling essentially means every single Division I program is probably going to be subject to an employer-employee relationship with their athletes. The courts and regulatory bodies seemingly don’t care about whether teams make revenue or not or even provide athletic scholarships (as Dartmouth and the other Ivies don’t).

The point is that there isn’t an “opting out” other than downgrading to club sports. There is no lower division that’s going to avoid these employee costs, which means that schools that don’t maximize revenue are going to get buried.

Once again, I’m not saying that it’s a good idea for the P2 to split off. The risks that you’ve mentioned are real, but you may be underestimating the expense side that is likely going to skyrocket for every Division I program, which means everyone needs every cent of revenue that they can possibly get.

Which additional costs specifically are you referring to?

If student-athletes are deemed employees, then they will become eligible for direct salaries, wages and benefits. A typical university likely has 500 student-athletes when it competes in the NCAA D1 level. Maybe a frugal university can cut-back to 350 D1 student-athletes, if it's very strategic. A low wage is probably close to $30K, plus benefits makes it $40K per employed-athlete. That is $15M of incremental expenses per year.

They are part-time workers (NCAA limits to 20 hours) for part-year work. Let's say 6 months. Football August-January; Basketball October-April; Baseball January-June.

26 weeks x 20 hours x $20/hour = $10,400 x 350 = $3.6M.

Plus you can drop all athletic scholarships.

(03-15-2024 04:23 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 04:13 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 03:50 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 03:25 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(03-15-2024 01:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  If that was attempted, that’s exactly where the Big Ten and SEC say, “We now need 4 AQs each or we’re breaking away.”

I know everyone outside of the P2 either doesn’t want to hear it or are in denial, but everyone outside of the P2 is who would get destroyed in a breakaway. That’s not to say that I think that it’s a good idea for the P2 to split off (as I personally don’t), but the P2 can survive in any format in a way that the G5 certainly can’t and the M2 probably can’t. These other leagues are facing financial suicide if the P2 leave, so they’re agreeing to pretty much everything that the P2 is asking for on the financial front.

It wouldn't hit everyone the same. ODU rarely plays teams from either conference, we'd lose future NCAA credits and CFP money. What's that? 2.5M/year if the system collapsed? Other's rely on those buy games from the big conferences to make ends meet. And the M2 would lose a lot more because they're getting a lot more. But I'm not sure if the P2 are captivating enough to make the money they're making now on their own once the numbers come in. Even with all the best brands in college sports that's still well under half the college fans in the country. B12 fans gonna watch the P2 championships? It'd be a disastrous move by both sides but some of us don't have the bills to pay that Ohio State and Bama do and have been doing it without huge media money. If that well runs dry who will it hurt the worse?

You’re not looking at the future expense side: the Dartmouth basketball team ruling essentially means every single Division I program is probably going to be subject to an employer-employee relationship with their athletes. The courts and regulatory bodies seemingly don’t care about whether teams make revenue or not or even provide athletic scholarships (as Dartmouth and the other Ivies don’t).

The point is that there isn’t an “opting out” other than downgrading to club sports. There is no lower division that’s going to avoid these employee costs, which means that schools that don’t maximize revenue are going to get buried.

Once again, I’m not saying that it’s a good idea for the P2 to split off. The risks that you’ve mentioned are real, but you may be underestimating the expense side that is likely going to skyrocket for every Division I program, which means everyone needs every cent of revenue that they can possibly get.

Which additional costs specifically are you referring to?

Paying athletes directly as employees.

The Dartmouth basketball players were deemed to be employees because they received compensation.

Now you are asserting they should receive additional compensation because they are employees.

Are cross-country athletes at Dartmouth "employees"? Do they receive $3000 in free clothing? Do they receive free tickets to their meets? Do they receive free room and board during Winterim?

Dartmouth refuses to work with basketball players’ union, potentially sending case to federal court.

Dartmouth from article Wrote:“From a procedural standpoint, if the full NLRB refuses to overturn the regional director’s decision, Dartmouth’s only remaining option to challenge this legal error is to engage in a technical refusal to bargain, an unprecedented step in our long history of labor negotiations,” the school said. “This will likely result in SEIU Local 560 filing an unfair labor practice charge with the NLRB, which we would appeal. This is the only lever Dartmouth has to get this matter reviewed by a federal court.”

The NLRB certified the result of the unionization vote last week, making the union officially the bargaining unit.

(03-15-2024 03:38 PM)Yosef181 Wrote:  If the G5s and FCSs refused to play P5s, it would absolutely hurt P5 programs.

A bunch of 6 and 7 win teams in the P5 would suddenly be 3 or 4 win teams (counting P5 bowl wins against G5s). That might not sound like much, but it would make a difference in fan interest and perception, which is what this is all about.

There are reasons why the P4 shouldn’t break away, but the “worse win-loss record” argument is one that is vastly overstated and the G5 shouldn’t think that they can rely upon it. Does anyone blink when a 7 or 8 loss NFL team makes the playoffs? Nope. Is anyone here looking at total win-loss records when picking their NCAA Tournament picks this week? Probably not. Frankly, outside of extraordinary teams (like the ‘96 Bulls or ‘72 Dolphins), does anyone really remember the regular season records of teams outside of college football? Not really - college football is an anachronism on that front.

Win-loss expectations are going to adjust with an expanded playoff and they would further adjust to account for any lack of cupcake games in a breakaway situation. Everyone would eventually internalize the difference in records between an all P4 schedule versus a schedule where 25-33% are games against G5/FCS opponents.

Why on earth would the G5 financially harm themselves to attempt to help the M2 stay closer to the P2? On a board that's filled with really dumb proposals this is the dumbest I've seen in a while.

(03-19-2024 07:48 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Why on earth would the G5 financially harm themselves to attempt to help the M2 stay closer to the P2? On a board that's filled with really dumb proposals this is the dumbest I've seen in a while.

It’s a proposal to elevate everybody. The P2 thinks we need them to stay alive, without easy wins on the schedule you will have a lot of unhappy fans with bloated season ticket prices being a perennial 2-3 win team. It should not have been allowed to get to this point, but here we are.

(03-19-2024 08:03 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 07:48 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Why on earth would the G5 financially harm themselves to attempt to help the M2 stay closer to the P2? On a board that's filled with really dumb proposals this is the dumbest I've seen in a while.

It’s a proposal to elevate everybody. The P2 thinks we need them to stay alive, without easy wins on the schedule you will have a lot of unhappy fans with bloated season ticket prices being a perennial 2-3 win team. It should not have been allowed to get to this point, but here we are.

it's a proposal to try to save dumb ass Florida St. And it's dumb as hell. G5 isn't going for that ****. FCS isn't. Why in the hell would the G5 or FCS save the ACC or Big 12?

And it wouldn't work. Individual schools aren't going to cut their nose to spite their face. And that's exactly what this would do. They aren't that stupid. G5 doesn't give a flyng **** about the ACC or Big 12. Nor should they.

(03-19-2024 08:03 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 07:48 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Why on earth would the G5 financially harm themselves to attempt to help the M2 stay closer to the P2? On a board that's filled with really dumb proposals this is the dumbest I've seen in a while.

It’s a proposal to elevate everybody. The P2 thinks we need them to stay alive, without easy wins on the schedule you will have a lot of unhappy fans with bloated season ticket prices being a perennial 2-3 win team. It should not have been allowed to get to this point, but here we are.

Once again, in a different system with a lack of cupcake games and a larger playoff, people will adjust to win-loss records accordingly just like they have done in the NFL. We are used to such a closed championship system where teams pretty much all need to be undefeated or 1-loss teams (with the occasional 2-loss team) to even have a chance at a championship.

That world is *gone* (and I believe for the better). No one in the NFL bemoans having 6/7/8 losses if they’re still in the playoffs. Fans will adjust.

Once again, I think there are reasons why the P2 shouldn’t breakaway, but preserving superficially gaudier win-loss records isn’t one of them.

(03-19-2024 08:03 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 07:48 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Why on earth would the G5 financially harm themselves to attempt to help the M2 stay closer to the P2? On a board that's filled with really dumb proposals this is the dumbest I've seen in a while.

It’s a proposal to elevate everybody. The P2 thinks we need them to stay alive, without easy wins on the schedule you will have a lot of unhappy fans with bloated season ticket prices being a perennial 2-3 win team. It should not have been allowed to get to this point, but here we are.

I mean sure if I were creating a system I'd have all of FBS treated somewhat equally, but that has never been the case and the M2 have been just a big a part of ensuring systems that lock in inequality as the P2 over the course of history. So why on earth should the G5 risk angering the more powerful of the oppressor groups to potentially help the less powerful of the oppressor groups stay closer to the more powerful group (nothing in your proposal would actually make the G5 and the M2 closer to "equals")? This seems like a fight you guys need to have that we aren't really a part of, figure it out among your "Power" group. Not our problem.

Great idea.

You're mad because you feel the P2 is going to someday break away and not play you... So the solution is for you not to play them first.

That'll show 'em.

(03-19-2024 08:47 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Great idea.

You're mad because you feel the P2 is going to someday break away and not play you... So the solution is for you not to play them first.

That'll show 'em.

and try to force other teams not to play them. Like you really matter at all

The G5 need games with the P2. Pay for play is the big way the G5 schools can scratch back some of the Money difference.

How many universities will eventually say, F it, we aren't going to have sports anymore? Just spend the money on academics. Most schools aren't making money off athletics anyway.

(03-19-2024 02:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  How many universities will eventually say, F it, we aren't going to have sports anymore? Just spend the money on academics. Most schools aren't making money off athletics anyway.

Athletics are essentially a marketing/advertising expense for the University. Marketing/advertising for any business doesn't typically "make money" on it's own, but it's important for driving people to the money making portions of the business. Lets just use ECU as an example. ECU's athletics expenses are around 50 million a year, and the school has to subsidize between 30-40% of that, so you are looking at about a 20 million advertising expense. ECU's total budget for the 2023-2024 school year is over 1 billion, so you are talking about 2% of the overall budget for advertising. Not all that much in the grand scheme of things, ECU would spend far more than 20 million a year to get the TV exposure/advertising for the school that you get for even 1 nationally televised football game. To buy 3-4 hours worth of ads on ESPN would cost to hell if I know how much.

(03-19-2024 02:59 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  How many universities will eventually say, F it, we aren't going to have sports anymore? Just spend the money on academics. Most schools aren't making money off athletics anyway.

Depends.

All of these issues are reasonably foreseeable, but you still see schools trying to move up to FBS and/or Division I despite all of this.

Also, a lot of schools (even at Division I) see athletics as important student recruitment tools for both the general student population and/or specific underrepresented groups that athletics help.

(03-15-2024 03:38 PM)Yosef181 Wrote:  If the G5s and FCSs refused to play P5s, it would absolutely hurt P5 programs.

A bunch of 6 and 7 win teams in the P5 would suddenly be 3 or 4 win teams (counting P5 bowl wins against G5s). That might not sound like much, but it would make a difference in fan interest and perception, which is what this is all about.

In a world where there are zero G5/P5 crossover games you'd still end up with the same % of teams w/ 6+ wins. The P5 absolutely does NOT need the G5.

Not the way my school does it. We schedule BYU in both football and basketball annually. Makes no sense to hold grudges.

(03-19-2024 08:03 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  

(03-19-2024 07:48 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Why on earth would the G5 financially harm themselves to attempt to help the M2 stay closer to the P2? On a board that's filled with really dumb proposals this is the dumbest I've seen in a while.

It’s a proposal to elevate everybody. The P2 thinks we need them to stay alive, without easy wins on the schedule you will have a lot of unhappy fans with bloated season ticket prices being a perennial 2-3 win team. It should not have been allowed to get to this point, but here we are.

THis will also prompt a lot of coach firings by boosters disapointed that they can't compete anymore and players will be jumping in the portal before every bowl game to get on a better team. It'll be hilarious.