(02-02-2024 10:09 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  I really feel for the players in this. As part of the relationship between student-athletes and a school, the school should be providing a place for them to grow as players and compete at their highest level possible. We aren't even close to that and you can see the toll it's taking through the body language on the court and bench.

I don't buy that take. These kids were recruited by the staff and had full awareness of the past couple of seasons. They are getting an awesome free education (aside from the walk ons) with some at the grad level. You can't blame Dane on last night's performance. The players played the game and got demolished. I can't wait until he's gone, but to say that the school is not supporting the players is a little too much for me.

(02-02-2024 12:33 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  I don't buy that take. These kids were recruited by the staff and had full awareness of the past couple of seasons. They are getting an awesome free education (aside from the walk ons) with some at the grad level. You can't blame Dane on last night's performance. The players played the game and got demolished. I can't wait until he's gone, but to say that the school is not supporting the players is a little too much for me.

I mean I absolutely blame Dane for last night's performance as it was perfectly representative of about 80% of his tenure as head coach. It's not like this was a one-off where we looked unprepared, disjointed, and apathetic. We ALWAYS looks unprepared, disjointed, and apathetic.

To the point about free education, I get it and agree that the degree(s) they're receiving are good compensation for the demands placed on student-athletes (though, full disclosure, I'm squarely in the "pay the players" camp). But my point is more that this level of ineptitude shouldn't be tolerated anywhere at W&M. If anyone, from the dean of a department to a custodian, were failing to deliver at the rate and magnitude that Dane is, they should be let go for the good of the students.

(02-01-2024 08:45 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Delaware is a middle of the road CAA team and I'm sitting and pondering if we have a single player that would crack their starting lineup. Maybe Gabe? But they have guys that shoot 3s and do other things as well. So, probably not. Plus, Gabe can't defend so he wouldn't fit anyway.

I disagree. I think many of our players would thrive on a team that was coached.

(02-02-2024 07:28 AM)ScottyB757 Wrote:  The flash sale earlier this week included tickets in the lower bowl, which I’d never known them to do, obviously an attempt to make the crowd look bigger on TV. I will say there were a number of “newbies” in the typically empty seats around me in Section 24. We gave them absolutely no reason to come back to another game this season…in fact, I’m questioning whether or not I’ll invest the 2+ hours (as well as a closed James River Bridge this weekend) to drive up to witness our same pitiful offense, lack of adjustments, and all around miserable play vs a team that’s probably going to thump us worse than Delaware.

The clock is ticking. I sure hope Mann hears it. Soon.

I used to be in Section 24, I think right behind you. I didn't renew this year because it's the only way I could tell them how I feel that they might care about. I did feel bad for the unfortunate staffer that called to ask if I was going to renew. I've been to a few games this season purchasing tickets one game at a time, including last night and tomorrow. But I haven't had any FOMO for Thursday night games at all.

Zablenoise, You and I are on the same page other than who's fault last night's loss should be blamed on. I guess I should have emphasized losing in an embarrassing fashion. I'll give a comparison. We beat ODU. Was that because of Dane or because of the players? Blaming a loss on a coach is fair a lot of the time, but not losing by 28 at home in front of a good student crowd. At some point the players need to be accountable for trying harder. Your point about ineptitude not being tolerated is spot on. I worry that inside the athletic department there is a belief that we can't compete at high levels any longer.

Take a look at all sports since Huge wrecked everything. We aren't as competitive as we used to be. It's totally related to resources/money. Of course our endowment.....

(02-02-2024 12:33 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 10:09 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  I really feel for the players in this. As part of the relationship between student-athletes and a school, the school should be providing a place for them to grow as players and compete at their highest level possible. We aren't even close to that and you can see the toll it's taking through the body language on the court and bench.

I don't buy that take. These kids were recruited by the staff and had full awareness of the past couple of seasons. They are getting an awesome free education (aside from the walk ons) with some at the grad level. You can't blame Dane on last night's performance. The players played the game and got demolished. I can't wait until he's gone, but to say that the school is not supporting the players is a little too much for me.

Last night was 100% on Dane. Our players on offense looked like they didn't know what was going to happen when they got the ball. It was catch, look, think. A team with a competent coach at least knows what comes next in the offense. We had players missing layups with the wrong hand and constant miscommunication on defense. We had our standard no-timeout end of half play that didn't get a shot off. All of those problems are resolved with coaching. Players have the freedom to make reads in our offense, but have not received sufficient instruction to be able to make the correct reads.

(02-02-2024 01:12 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 07:28 AM)ScottyB757 Wrote:  The flash sale earlier this week included tickets in the lower bowl, which I’d never known them to do, obviously an attempt to make the crowd look bigger on TV. I will say there were a number of “newbies” in the typically empty seats around me in Section 24. We gave them absolutely no reason to come back to another game this season…in fact, I’m questioning whether or not I’ll invest the 2+ hours (as well as a closed James River Bridge this weekend) to drive up to witness our same pitiful offense, lack of adjustments, and all around miserable play vs a team that’s probably going to thump us worse than Delaware.

The clock is ticking. I sure hope Mann hears it. Soon.

I used to be in Section 24, I think right behind you. I didn't renew this year because it's the only way I could tell them how I feel that they might care about. I did feel bad for the unfortunate staffer that called to ask if I was going to renew. I've been to a few games this season purchasing tickets one game at a time, including last night and tomorrow. But I haven't had any FOMO for Thursday night games at all.

I have the exact same story as you do. Its getting ready to happen for me with football next. Another thing that nobody knows unless you've been to the games lately is that nobody checks your tickets. People buy general admission and tickets and sit in the expensive sections.

(02-02-2024 01:12 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Zablenoise, You and I are on the same page other than who's fault last night's loss should be blamed on. I guess I should have emphasized losing in an embarrassing fashion. I'll give a comparison. We beat ODU. Was that because of Dane or because of the players? Blaming a loss on a coach is fair a lot of the time, but not losing by 28 at home in front of a good student crowd. At some point the players need to be accountable for trying harder. Your point about ineptitude not being tolerated is spot on. I worry that inside the athletic department there is a belief that we can't compete at high levels any longer.

Take a look at all sports since Huge wrecked everything. We aren't as competitive as we used to be. It's totally related to resources/money. Of course our endowment.....

IMO, pretty much all our wins have been in spite of the coaching, not because of it. In particular games, our offense has looked fine to good and our defense has at times looked great. The fact that we're not able to repeat that level of play suggests that the coaching is at fault.

w/r/t we're not as competitive... Field Hockey just won the CAA Championship and NCAA tournament games. Women's basketball is on the rise. I get the point you're trying to make, but I think it's overstating the facts and heavily weighted by how much of a disaster last night's game was.

(02-02-2024 04:43 AM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-01-2024 11:00 PM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  There are two events in my life that I prayed that I would never have to live through a second time. Both events are the result of two separate pairs of men who, decades apart, were handed the same job, jobs that each pair of men were totally incapable of performing with any degree of competency. Each pair of men managed to bring the entity for whom they were given responsibility to its proverbial knees, entities for whom I have great love.

I hoped that I would never have to live though a coach as bad as Chuck. And I hoped that I would never have to live through a (…….) as horrible as (……).

If the Chuck era is one of two awful events that you prayed you would never have to live through a second time, you’ve had an amazing life.


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Agree on that. The Swenson years were nothing on the radar for real life and real problems. As an alum and a fan, the 13-14 years under Shaver(from the first tourney run until the 2019 nightmare against Delaware) were fun often both for students and alumni. The vast majority of the time under Coach Laycock as a student and alum were the same. Some of that was on court results, some was also the type of people that the programs produced. Admittedly, under the new college rules that era is likely gone forever. Everything now is a 1 year committment. Unfortunately between FLO and the ease of not watching the product, apathy sets in fast. That is also why when you have a national broadcast on CBSSN or ESPN(2, U or +) getting crushed leaves a lasting impression when it is the only thing you see. London did a good job in 2022 and just had an unfortunate awful last game on an ice rink. Fortunately, at least some people saw our previous week's game that year. But, both football and basketball are playing in much weaker conferences than even 5 years ago and generally not at the top of the league. Mann hopefully will make a good hire soon like we already has in other sports. There is still hope for football because London gets good players and generally runs a system players like playing in. Men's Basketball is a long way from competing. A 5 year mistake and counting.

The Lions and the Orioles are also showing that incompetence has an end, but it can last 30+ years.

Taking family for first and only time in Kaplan in 2 years, and know we will leave after the halftime baby race. Sad. Wish it was the women's game instead.

(02-02-2024 01:03 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-01-2024 08:45 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Delaware is a middle of the road CAA team and I'm sitting and pondering if we have a single player that would crack their starting lineup. Maybe Gabe? But they have guys that shoot 3s and do other things as well. So, probably not. Plus, Gabe can't defend so he wouldn't fit anyway.

I disagree. I think many of our players would thrive on a team that was coached.

I didn't say they couldn't thrive. I merely asked if anybody on our roster would start over someone in the Delaware starting lineup. A day removed and thinking of players 1-5, I think my point still rings true. Perhaps with better coaching my mind could be changed.

(02-02-2024 04:43 AM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-01-2024 11:00 PM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  There are two events in my life that I prayed that I would never have to live through a second time. Both events are the result of two separate pairs of men who, decades apart, were handed the same job, jobs that each pair of men were totally incapable of performing with any degree of competency. Each pair of men managed to bring the entity for whom they were given responsibility to its proverbial knees, entities for whom I have great love.

I hoped that I would never have to live though a coach as bad as Chuck. And I hoped that I would never have to live through a (…….) as horrible as (……).

If the Chuck era is one of two awful events that you prayed you would never have to live through a second time, you’ve had an amazing life.


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Agreed. Waiting to hear back from Duke if they can treat my younger daughter’s fourth round of cancer.


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(02-02-2024 04:29 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 04:43 AM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-01-2024 11:00 PM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  There are two events in my life that I prayed that I would never have to live through a second time. Both events are the result of two separate pairs of men who, decades apart, were handed the same job, jobs that each pair of men were totally incapable of performing with any degree of competency. Each pair of men managed to bring the entity for whom they were given responsibility to its proverbial knees, entities for whom I have great love.

I hoped that I would never have to live though a coach as bad as Chuck. And I hoped that I would never have to live through a (…….) as horrible as (……).

If the Chuck era is one of two awful events that you prayed you would never have to live through a second time, you’ve had an amazing life.


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Agreed. Waiting to hear back from Duke if they can treat my younger daughter’s fourth round of cancer.


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Very very sad to read that. Unfair and I hope, in 10 years, you’re here to report she is going on a decade of a clean bill of health.

I’m sure the original post was an exaggeration meant to drive home the point that our program has fallen between two arctic ice walls unlike anything we’ve seen since ol Chuck


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(02-02-2024 04:29 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 01:03 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-01-2024 08:45 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Delaware is a middle of the road CAA team and I'm sitting and pondering if we have a single player that would crack their starting lineup. Maybe Gabe? But they have guys that shoot 3s and do other things as well. So, probably not. Plus, Gabe can't defend so he wouldn't fit anyway.

I disagree. I think many of our players would thrive on a team that was coached.

I didn't say they couldn't thrive. I merely asked if anybody on our roster would start over someone in the Delaware starting lineup. A day removed and thinking of players 1-5, I think my point still rings true. Perhaps with better coaching my mind could be changed.

None of our 5 would start anywhere if they were only as good as they were against Delaware. But if it's the Gabe that hits 8 3s in a game and drives for another few buckets? He starts everywhere. If it's the Moss that took over a game last week, even though we lost? If it's the Chase Lowe that dominated NC A&T with 10 shots and 16 FT? I think those guys are at least in the conversation to start pretty much everywhere. Caleb Dorsey and Matteus Case weren't supposed to start for us, so I don't know how it's an indictment of our players that they wouldn't start for other schools.

(02-03-2024 12:02 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 04:29 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 01:03 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(02-01-2024 08:45 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Delaware is a middle of the road CAA team and I'm sitting and pondering if we have a single player that would crack their starting lineup. Maybe Gabe? But they have guys that shoot 3s and do other things as well. So, probably not. Plus, Gabe can't defend so he wouldn't fit anyway.

I disagree. I think many of our players would thrive on a team that was coached.

I didn't say they couldn't thrive. I merely asked if anybody on our roster would start over someone in the Delaware starting lineup. A day removed and thinking of players 1-5, I think my point still rings true. Perhaps with better coaching my mind could be changed.

None of our 5 would start anywhere if they were only as good as they were against Delaware. But if it's the Gabe that hits 8 3s in a game and drives for another few buckets? He starts everywhere. If it's the Moss that took over a game last week, even though we lost? If it's the Chase Lowe that dominated NC A&T with 10 shots and 16 FT? I think those guys are at least in the conversation to start pretty much everywhere. Caleb Dorsey and Matteus Case weren't supposed to start for us, so I don't know how it's an indictment of our players that they wouldn't start for other schools.

Part of what makes a good team and a successful player is being able to establish an identity and execute it consistently. You cite examples of each of these players at their absolute best. Of course any team would want that output. Problem is, none of the guys you listed are versatile enough to do much if their strength is taken away. Opponents scout us. They know Gabe is looking to hoist up 3's. They know that if given an angle, Chase and Trey are looking to penetrate. They gameplan to take that away and we can't fall back on anything else. Because of that we are inconsistent and can't rely on it game to game. All of these guys look great in small sample sizes. Problem is, we watch every game. Gabe is a fantastic shooter, but If his 25 footers aren't hitting he brings little else. Without going into the details, I can give examples of each of our other starters where they struggle to fall back on anything else if you take away their strength. The ultimate fall back when things aren't working is defense, and I'm not sure I'd trust any of our guys there. Though I'm willing to concede that has more to do with poor coaching than an inability to defend. Most solid teams, if they're struggling knocking down shots, will fall back on their defense and attacking the glass. Again, as a unit, we are atrocious at team defense and pay little attention to boxing out or rebounding.

As much as I hate Richmond, their team this year are an exquisite example of players knowing their roles and consistently executing their roles as a collective team. Beautiful basketball and they've been rewarded by the results. "Position-less" basketball is uncoached basketball.

(02-03-2024 08:22 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  They know that if given an angle, Chase and Trey are looking to penetrate.

These days, they are penetrating regardless of whether they have an angle or not. Take a look at their shooting numbers from Thursday.

(02-03-2024 08:22 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Most solid teams, if they're struggling knocking down shots, will fall back on their defense and attacking the glass. Again, as a unit, we are atrocious at team defense and pay little attention to boxing out or rebounding.

Atrocious seems about right. Our defensive efficiency is ranked 344 out of 365. The really sad news is that there are three other CAA teams ranked below us. Yep, this is a great conference.

(02-02-2024 04:29 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 04:43 AM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-01-2024 11:00 PM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  There are two events in my life that I prayed that I would never have to live through a second time. Both events are the result of two separate pairs of men who, decades apart, were handed the same job, jobs that each pair of men were totally incapable of performing with any degree of competency. Each pair of men managed to bring the entity for whom they were given responsibility to its proverbial knees, entities for whom I have great love.

I hoped that I would never have to live though a coach as bad as Chuck. And I hoped that I would never have to live through a (…….) as horrible as (……).

If the Chuck era is one of two awful events that you prayed you would never have to live through a second time, you’ve had an amazing life.


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Agreed. Waiting to hear back from Duke if they can treat my younger daughter’s fourth round of cancer.


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Very sorry to hear that. Stay positive, thoughts with you and your family.

(02-02-2024 09:38 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 04:29 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(02-02-2024 04:43 AM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-01-2024 11:00 PM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  There are two events in my life that I prayed that I would never have to live through a second time. Both events are the result of two separate pairs of men who, decades apart, were handed the same job, jobs that each pair of men were totally incapable of performing with any degree of competency. Each pair of men managed to bring the entity for whom they were given responsibility to its proverbial knees, entities for whom I have great love.

I hoped that I would never have to live though a coach as bad as Chuck. And I hoped that I would never have to live through a (…….) as horrible as (……).

If the Chuck era is one of two awful events that you prayed you would never have to live through a second time, you’ve had an amazing life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. Waiting to hear back from Duke if they can treat my younger daughter’s fourth round of cancer.


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Very very sad to read that. Unfair and I hope, in 10 years, you’re here to report she is going on a decade of a clean bill of health.

I’m sure the original post was an exaggeration meant to drive home the point that our program has fallen between two arctic ice walls unlike anything we’ve seen since ol Chuck


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It most certainly was. I was not sure how to respond after it took on an unimaginable life of its on that I certainly never intended. I cannot imagine the pain that you went through and probably still feel ever day. I am sorry that my intended exageration failed miserably.

Your post didn’t fail and my response a half-zinger that wasn’t meant to admonish .


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