(09-16-2023 06:47 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 05:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Basketball isn’t even in the top-3 in St. Louis.

I would be highly surprised (and maybe shocked) if that is true for the bulk of the tens of thousands of African-American sports fans living in St. Louis, IWULT.

St. Louis is a lot like Detroit: a great city that never recovered from industrial change and white flight. The population of St. Louis today is smaller than it was in 1860. The NBA left in 1968 and isn't coming back; the last NCAA regional there was in 1998. It may be realistic to consider basketball in STL behind MLB (obviously), NHL, and either among lingering Rams fans or its new MLS team, which averages 22,000 a game.

(09-17-2023 08:30 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  They add no value to the Big East. Same could be said for the AAC. Why would the AAC want Dayton or St. Louis? Seems like expanding just to expand. 16-18 team conferences are now a good thing.

Depends on how much interest there is from other media partners in a slice of the media deal. A split deal with Fox as the primary media partner and, say, CBS as a secondary partner could pay more per member versus Fox buying 100% of the Big East, and the value of Gonzaga or A10 teams would be in being able to provide a minimum amount of volume to both partners.

I could also see the Big East seeing value in getting whatever women's games aren't picked up nationally plus the various soccer/baseball/lacrosse/etc games streamed on Paramount+ as well as CBS seeing value in getting select men's games and the UConn women hosted on their streaming platform for live sports content.

(09-17-2023 09:21 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 06:47 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 05:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Basketball isn’t even in the top-3 in St. Louis.

I would be highly surprised (and maybe shocked) if that is true for the bulk of the tens of thousands of African-American sports fans living in St. Louis, IWULT.

St. Louis is a lot like Detroit: a great city that never recovered from industrial change and white flight. The population of St. Louis today is smaller than it was in 1860. The NBA left in 1968 and isn't coming back; the last NCAA regional there was in 1998. It may be realistic to consider basketball in STL behind MLB (obviously), NHL, and either among lingering Rams fans or its new MLS team, which averages 22,000 a game.

The St. Louis/Detroit comparison is spot-on. Agree.

An important distinction to make is that the population loss has been (as I understand it) far more dramatic in the "city of St. Louis" (about 66 square miles) as opposed to the city's metropolitan statistical area (which is about 8,450 square miles and seeing stagnant growth).

Major league soccer seemingly is growing in popularity in St. Louis. And MLS might be more popular (and even considerably more) than MLB among the city's African-American sports fans (I would be curious to know).

As I reconsider, my posting that St. Louis is a "basketball-centric city" was boneheaded. It won't be the last time I fumble and bumble on this board.

(09-16-2023 07:12 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  SLU and Dayton should be in the Big East but Xavier won't allow it.

Florida State and Clemson should be in the SEC but Florida and South Carolina won't allow it

Limited sample size, but here are attendance figures when SLU hosts a Big East team at Chaifetz Arena (10,600) since 2010:

2019 - Seton Hall ((9,611)*
2018 - Butler (9,572)
2013 - Butler (10,612)*
2012 - Xavier (10,414)
2011 - Xavier (7,268)
2010 - Xavier (10 008)
*ranked opponent

Additionally, here is each time they hosted ranked opponent:

2021 - Auburn (8,012)
2020 - Dayton (10,007)
2015 - VCU (9,643)
2013 - Wichita State (9,031)
2013 - VCU (10,027)
2010 - Temple (7,984)

These are significantly higher than their seasonal averages. If SLU and Dayton (which sells out every game) were ever added, the average attendance per game for the Big East would go higher (and it already averages 10k per game).

(09-16-2023 09:31 AM)Section 200 Wrote:  St. Louis has everything except winning - they built the arena, have rivarlies with Marquette, Xavier, Creighton & DePaul, Jesuit Catholic school in a heavily Catholic eastern-facing Midwest city. Creighton took St Louis' spot - timing is everything. Had the OBE split come sooner, SLU would have made the cut instead of Creighton & St Louis is a much more valuable media market than Omaha. But SLU did not win enough & Creighton did & the Big East prioritizes winning basketball very highly.

SLU needs to start dominating the A-10 to have any chance at the Big East. Big East will not add any school from a non P-5 conference that is not dominating. BC or Syracuse could be added with middling basketball records but a team from a "G" conference must be dominating that conference. Xavier, Butler & Creighton all dominated their previous homes. SLU has the $$ - time to start winning if they want to move up.

And Xavier, Butler, and Creighton remain competitive even at this new level. I'm not so sure about the timing component of "being good at the right time" for those Big East bids, and how SLU got left out. I think the three demonstrated sustained success, infrastructure, fan support, and that relevancy/opportunity/timing thing. The Big East took programs who had proven they knew how to win consistently. All three of those schools demonstrated it better than Saint Louis. I think the Big East knew and saw that, and didn't see it enough from Saint Louis. It is what it is.

If I'm sour grapes about SLU, it's because I've wanted them to be better in the A10. Consistent. I got (and still get) the impression that they only "play up" when there's an opportunity to move upward. I'm happy that from time to time, they make the A10 better. But, meh. Far from the best of that conference.

I'm more sour at the thought of what happens if/when they get the Big East bid. And, yes, I very much do believe they'll be a consistent bottom-dweller. I don't think they'll be good for the work once in the same conference as some of these others. But, academically, we know they'll belong and be happy to be there.

Following is the ideal 16-member league for Saint Louis men's hoops — based on geography and historical considerations. SLU has played each of these schools at least 35 times during its history and each of these 15 is a "basketball-first" school. (Note: In this hypothetical, I am limiting "conference membership" to Big East members and other schools that are not part of the five all-sports power leagues):

Bradley
Butler
Dayton
DePaul
Detroit Mercy
Drake
Evansville
Loyola (Chicago)
Marquette
Memphis
Missouri State
Southern Illinois
Tulsa
Wichita
Xavier

With Saint Louis, that is a quality 16-member league.

(09-17-2023 09:21 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 06:47 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 05:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Basketball isn’t even in the top-3 in St. Louis.

I would be highly surprised (and maybe shocked) if that is true for the bulk of the tens of thousands of African-American sports fans living in St. Louis, IWULT.

St. Louis is a lot like Detroit: a great city that never recovered from industrial change and white flight. The population of St. Louis today is smaller than it was in 1860. The NBA left in 1968 and isn't coming back; the last NCAA regional there was in 1998. It may be realistic to consider basketball in STL behind MLB (obviously), NHL, and either among lingering Rams fans or its new MLS team, which averages 22,000 a game.

What about metro St. Louis or is that what you were getting at?

(09-17-2023 10:21 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-17-2023 09:21 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 06:47 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 05:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Basketball isn’t even in the top-3 in St. Louis.

I would be highly surprised (and maybe shocked) if that is true for the bulk of the tens of thousands of African-American sports fans living in St. Louis, IWULT.

St. Louis is a lot like Detroit: a great city that never recovered from industrial change and white flight. The population of St. Louis today is smaller than it was in 1860. The NBA left in 1968 and isn't coming back; the last NCAA regional there was in 1998. It may be realistic to consider basketball in STL behind MLB (obviously), NHL, and either among lingering Rams fans or its new MLS team, which averages 22,000 a game.

The St. Louis/Detroit comparison is spot-on. Agree.

An important distinction to make is that the population loss has been (as I understand it) far more dramatic in the "city of St. Louis" (about 66 square miles) as opposed to the city's metropolitan statistical area (which is about 8,450 square miles and seeing stagnant growth).

Major league soccer seemingly is growing in popularity in St. Louis. And MLS might be more popular (and even considerably more) than MLB among the city's African-American sports fans (I would be curious to know).

As I reconsider, my posting that St. Louis is a "basketball-centric city" was boneheaded. It won't be the last time I fumble and bumble on this board.

I doubt that, soccer is invisible to most black people I know (and white people for that matter; I'm black living in an area heavily populated by African Americans) and basketball is a distinct part of urban culture. Granted, my brother played soccer as a child, so maybe it's popular among children and soccer moms if they have many in STL city. In Metro St. Louis, MLS may be more popular but in the city proper I'm confident basketball is no worse than the second most popular sport.

(09-17-2023 08:51 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(09-17-2023 10:21 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-17-2023 09:21 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 06:47 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 05:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Basketball isn’t even in the top-3 in St. Louis.

I would be highly surprised (and maybe shocked) if that is true for the bulk of the tens of thousands of African-American sports fans living in St. Louis, IWULT.

St. Louis is a lot like Detroit: a great city that never recovered from industrial change and white flight. The population of St. Louis today is smaller than it was in 1860. The NBA left in 1968 and isn't coming back; the last NCAA regional there was in 1998. It may be realistic to consider basketball in STL behind MLB (obviously), NHL, and either among lingering Rams fans or its new MLS team, which averages 22,000 a game.

The St. Louis/Detroit comparison is spot-on. Agree.

An important distinction to make is that the population loss has been (as I understand it) far more dramatic in the "city of St. Louis" (about 66 square miles) as opposed to the city's metropolitan statistical area (which is about 8,450 square miles and seeing stagnant growth).

Major league soccer seemingly is growing in popularity in St. Louis. And MLS might be more popular (and even considerably more) than MLB among the city's African-American sports fans (I would be curious to know).

As I reconsider, my posting that St. Louis is a "basketball-centric city" was boneheaded. It won't be the last time I fumble and bumble on this board.

I doubt that, soccer is invisible to most black people I know (and white people for that matter; I'm black living in an area heavily populated by African Americans) and basketball is a distinct part of urban culture. Granted, my brother played soccer as a child, so maybe it's popular among children and soccer moms if they have many in STL city. In Metro St. Louis, MLS may be more popular but in the city proper I'm confident basketball is no worse than the second most popular sport.

Your MLS observation is interesting, C2. Nashville's MLS franchise offers a decent number of black fans. But (from what I understand) a disproportionate number are immigrants from Africa.

I sometimes feel posters on this board overlook cultural considerations (particularly those related to black fans and sports culture) in their posts. For example, I've read — for hoops programs not part of the P6 — posts that praise Gonzaga hoops for being successful/influential/popular on a national level. But few posters note, for another example, the impact Memphis Tiger hoops have had with black fans and the black sports culture. Seems there is sometimes an overlooking. I'm white and have black family members on both my mother's and father's sides. So "cultural elements in sports" is a topic of interest to me.

Saint Louis is overrated as a Big East candidate. If you look at the top six programs of the A-10 over the last 12 seasons, 11 NCAA Tournaments (to benefit SLU by throwing in a Majerus NCAA trip)...

TEAM A: 288-116, 9 NCAA (3-9)*
TEAM B: 263-128, 4 NCAA (6-4)*
TEAM C: 249-133, 5 NCAA (0-5)

TEAM D: 237-153, 4 NCAAs (3-4)
TEAM E: 228-145, 3 NCAA (1-3)*
TEAM F: 223-170, 3 NCAA (5-3)


*additional screw job scenario not included.

We all know by now that performance is only a fraction of the complete resume for each school/program. Which of those teams are Private Catholic institutions? How about their market/location? Academics?

(09-18-2023 02:42 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  We all know by now that performance is only a fraction of the complete resume for each school/program. Which of those teams are Private Catholic institutions? How about their market/location? Academics?

I agree with you, but the Big East stance of "have to be at our level to get in" is the major talking point.

Of the other five, three ARE Private/Catholic. One is Private/Presbyterian. (and the other is VCU).

(09-17-2023 09:21 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 06:47 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 05:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Basketball isn’t even in the top-3 in St. Louis.

I would be highly surprised (and maybe shocked) if that is true for the bulk of the tens of thousands of African-American sports fans living in St. Louis, IWULT.

St. Louis is a lot like Detroit: a great city that never recovered from industrial change and white flight. The population of St. Louis today is smaller than it was in 1860. The NBA left in 1968 and isn't coming back; the last NCAA regional there was in 1998. It may be realistic to consider basketball in STL behind MLB (obviously), NHL, and either among lingering Rams fans or its new MLS team, which averages 22,000 a game.

St Louis, the city, is a real dump and continues to get more dangerous every year. I drove around the SLU campus a couple of years ago before I attended Arch Madness (MVC Tournament) and their campus is basically surrounded by the ghetto. I know I wouldn't send any of my kids there, especially daughters. A dude got shot in the back of the head in broad daylight a few blocks away from the Scottrade Center about a week before the MVC Tournament this year.

(09-19-2023 05:05 PM)mvfcfan Wrote:  St Louis, the city, is a real dump and continues to get more dangerous every year. I drove around the SLU campus a couple of years ago before I attended Arch Madness (MVC Tournament) and their campus is basically surrounded by the ghetto. I know I wouldn't send any of my kids there, especially daughters. A dude got shot in the back of the head in broad daylight a few blocks away from the Scottrade Center about a week before the MVC Tournament this year.

FWIW, the SLU campus is a mile and a half from the rough part of St. Louis and the Enterprise Center is in one of the better parts of Downtown West.

The fact I think "one of the better parts" of St Louis is a dump, just shows how bad that city truly is.

I can only shrug when people place SLU to the top of any possible lists because of "academic fit." I mean, there are really great schools in the Big East, and there are "eh" ones.

Let's be honest: academically, the Big East can do better than SLU. Davidson, Boston, Richmond to name a few. Then again, Tulane was a great academic "fit" for the conference, and that appeared to be a kind of "last straw" for the C7.

So, if it comes to basketball, well, we know there is much better out there.

I do believe the conference is making these decisions based on basketball performance first, academic profile second. And by "academic profile," it's the public/private thing and other provincial eccentricities. Honestly? If SLU, Detroit, Davidson, or even Drake could boast some decent basketball legacy or relevancy, they'd be in by now.

(09-20-2023 07:10 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I can only shrug when people place SLU to the top of any possible lists because of "academic fit." I mean, there are really great schools in the Big East, and there are "eh" ones.

Let's be honest: academically, the Big East can do better than SLU. Davidson, Boston, Richmond to name a few. Then again, Tulane was a great academic "fit" for the conference, and that appeared to be a kind of "last straw" for the C7.

So, if it comes to basketball, well, we know there is much better out there.

I do believe the conference is making these decisions based on basketball performance first, academic profile second. And by "academic profile," it's the public/private thing and other provincial eccentricities. Honestly? If SLU, Detroit, Davidson, or even Drake could boast some decent basketball legacy or relevancy, they'd be in by now.

Well, that last part of relevancy is a little annoying for Dayton and Loyola fans, considering they've won 5 NCAA games in the last nine tournaments, Loyola has a Final Four and Dayton was #2 in the country when COVID wiped out the 2020 tourney.

But what annoys me is that counter-intuitive logic of "market size" and dismissing St. Bonaventure based on it.

The whole reason to look at market size is TV ratings, with the basis being that the city will watch the local team on TV. Which is pure insanity for college basketball.

The numbers on population and fandom show that:
#1 - While 2/3 of Americans live where they grew up, the numbers become inverted for college graduates. Less than 1/3 of college graduates live where they grew up.

#2 - While like 45% of people are "fans of college basketball" only like 16% are "avid fans" and the rest are "causal." And the avid number jumps when you ask college graduates.

#3 - BIG FOOTBALL PROGRAMS draw fans from all over the state -- even if people attended a smaller school in the state. But how does that not work AGAINST the Big East: being the smaller, private, catholic schools and not the football flagships?

Doesn't your FS1/FS2 TV viewership for regular season Big East basketball games come the AVID fans, and not the causal fans?

That brings me back to St. Bonaventure. If 31% of college grads go back home, that's Bona grads going to Buffalo and Rochester. That's where Bona grads get jobs (also NYC. I'm not pretending we "bring" NYC).

But there's 2.5 million people in Western New York. And FOUR schools. Rochester has none. The "big state football flagship" isn't a P5, it's a MAC school. We're already the best basketball program of the four. There's no reason why Big East membership wouldn't bring the Buffalo/Rochester markets to Big East TV. You don't CARE about who shows up to the arena; tickets are Bona's money. TV ratings are your money.

(09-16-2023 02:20 PM)PicksUp Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 02:07 PM)C2__ Wrote:  ... The A-10 was a 1-bid league last year, so it's obviously on the decline, not that C-USA is much better. But the conference did produce a Final Four team, granted that program is no longer around. ...

One year doesn't make a trend. Before last year AAC barely had more teams in the tournament than the A10 on an average year.

Exactly. If the evidence that the A10 is going to be permanently worse than CUSA is one down year for the A10 and one school from CUSA doing well in the Tournament that is no longer in CUSA, it seems like really shaky evidence.

Last year was a really down year for the A10 ... it wasn't just the lack of an at-large NCAA bid, but it also seems to have had no at-large NIT bids, when in the previous years it has had three or four in addition to one or more Tourney at-large bids.

I don't follow the A-10 closely, but this could well be an NIL affect combined with the relaxed transfer rules, where larger fan base schools were able to raid the A-10 for many of their best players.

But even if that is what is going on, it's only a trend if the A-10 schools don't figure out a way to fight back. If they are able to figure out a way to fight back, then it is simply a one or two year dry spell before returning to their multi-bid status.

(09-20-2023 07:10 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I can only shrug when people place SLU to the top of any possible lists because of "academic fit." I mean, there are really great schools in the Big East, and there are "eh" ones.

Let's be honest: academically, the Big East can do better than SLU. Davidson, Boston, Richmond to name a few. Then again, Tulane was a great academic "fit" for the conference, and that appeared to be a kind of "last straw" for the C7.

So, if it comes to basketball, well, we know there is much better out there.

I do believe the conference is making these decisions based on basketball performance first, academic profile second. And by "academic profile," it's the public/private thing and other provincial eccentricities. Honestly? If SLU, Detroit, Davidson, or even Drake could boast some decent basketball legacy or relevancy, they'd be in by now.

To be sure, it’s not solely academics. It’s really about institutional fit. BU is a great academic private university in a large market, but it’s not an institutional fit with virtually zero basketball history or culture. Dayton obviously has a great basketball culture and SLU has a solid one. Davidson has long been a sleeper Big East pick for me - obviously great academics and a lot of basketball pedigree in the middle of a college basketball hotbed.