(09-16-2023 09:47 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 09:24 AM)goofus Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 09:08 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I'm all for SLU in the Big East. They are an institutional fit (Jesuit)/basketball-first/non-football, would bring a strong new media/recruiting market (St. Louis) and have very strong attendance when top programs come to town. They also have the facilities. Not having an NFL or NBA team during the winter to compete with is also, IMO, a plus.

It might be surprising to most, but SLU has 8 seasons of 23+ wins in the past 15 years (08-09); only four of those seasons resulted in an NCAAT appearance. Is SLU a UConn/Gonzaga? Absolutely not. But they, IMO, continue to present a huge growth opportunity to the middle of the BE, especially when you factor in additional BET games at MSG (with a fan base that travels) and inventory that can be added/sold to FOX, CBSSN, etc.

Long-term, it also creates scheduling pairs that could make a Gonzaga addition more feasible; Creighton/SLU, Marquette/DePaul, Butler/Xavier, Villanova/Georgetown, St. John's/Hall, Providence/UConn. It's much easier for a road trip hitting two programs in close proximity (and possibly two four-game road trips to avoid returning to west coast).

SLU isn't going to the American. Neither is Dayton or VCU.

ST LOUIS is a 6 1/2 hour drive from Omaha. It may not be the best travel partner really for anybody.

Less than 90 minute flight.

I mean, SLU is closer to Marquette, DePaul, and Xaiver than Creighton, so I don't think it would ever make sense to make those two schools travel partners.

(09-16-2023 09:36 AM)Ridge1982 Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:55 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:48 AM)Ridge1982 Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:26 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  C-USA, really?

Why would they want to join a much weaker league.

Where else will they go ? It’s either the two I mentioned or remain stuck in perpetuity in a one bid league. The BE is set with what they have.

Im not sure you understand the quality of basketball programs in CUSA now as opposed to 10 years ago. Which is coincidentally the last time CUSA had more than one bid. Houston, Memphis, Tulsa, UAB and East Carolina are long gone. The A-10 has had multiple teams in the tournament 14 out of the last 15 years.

And I’m not sure you understand that the A10 is not what it was in the last decade. The league has been trending downhill for awhile. Butler and Temple aren’t walking through that door.

I would reread his post and look up Conference USA’s rankings over the past 10 years. And the number of at-larges each league has delivered.

A move from the A10 to CUSA is not something you want to double down on.

(09-16-2023 09:47 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  [quote='goofus' pid='19148568' dateline='1694874289']
[quote='GoldenWarrior11' pid='19148549' dateline='1694873308']
I'm all for SLU in the Big East. They are an institutional fit (Jesuit)/basketball-first/non-football, would bring a strong new media/recruiting market (St. Louis) and have very strong attendance when top programs come to town. They also have the facilities. Not having an NFL or NBA team during the winter to compete with is also, IMO, a plus.

It might be surprising to most, but SLU has 8 seasons of 23+ wins in the past 15 years (08-09); only four of those seasons resulted in an NCAAT appearance. Is SLU a UConn/Gonzaga? Absolutely not. But they, IMO, continue to present a huge growth opportunity to the middle of the BE, especially when you factor in additional BET games at MSG (with a fan base that travels) and inventory that can be added/sold to FOX, CBSSN, etc.

Long-term, it also creates scheduling pairs that could make a Gonzaga addition more feasible; Creighton/SLU, Marquette/DePaul, Butler/Xavier, Villanova/Georgetown, St. John's/Hall, Providence/UConn. It's much easier for a road trip hitting two programs in close proximity (and possibly two four-game road trips to avoid returning to west coast).

SLU isn't going to the American. Neither is Dayton or VCU.

Disagree: SLU does not have a national brand that Fox can leverage, and its visibility in major college basketball is at best, limited. (Quick: Name the best player in SLU history.) It has five NCAA tournament wins in school history and hasn't got out of the second round since 1957.

Its brand is comparable to Drake and no one is arguing for Drake to join the Big East.

(09-16-2023 08:55 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:48 AM)Ridge1982 Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:26 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  C-USA, really?

Why would they want to join a much weaker league.

Where else will they go ? It’s either the two I mentioned or remain stuck in perpetuity in a one bid league. The BE is set with what they have.

Im not sure you understand the quality of basketball programs in CUSA now as opposed to 10 years ago. Which is coincidentally the last time CUSA had more than one bid. Houston, Memphis, Tulsa, UAB and East Carolina are long gone. The A-10 has had multiple teams in the tournament 14 out of the last 15 years.

IDK, Liberty, NMSU, Sam and Middle Tennessee have had some decent/good teams in recent years and while UTEP has been down lately, they have tradition, fan support and a good arena. Even Jacksonville State and Kennesaw State have been Dancing in recent years.

The A-10 was a 1-bid league last year, so it's obviously on the decline, not that C-USA is much better. But the conference did produce a Final Four team, granted that program is no longer around. I realize Dayton had that potential one year if not for Covid but when is the last time a team representing the conference (i.e. in the conference at the time) when to the Final Four?

(09-16-2023 09:31 AM)Section 200 Wrote:  St. Louis has everything except winning - they built the arena, have rivarlies with Marquette, Xavier, Creighton & DePaul, Jesuit Catholic school in a heavily Catholic eastern-facing Midwest city. Creighton took St Louis' spot - timing is everything. Had the OBE split come sooner, SLU would have made the cut instead of Creighton & St Louis is a much more valuable media market than Omaha. But SLU did not win enough & Creighton did & the Big East prioritizes winning basketball very highly.

SLU needs to start dominating the A-10 to have any chance at the Big East. Big East will not add any school from a non P-5 conference that is not dominating. BC or Syracuse could be added with middling basketball records but a team from a "G" conference must be dominating that conference. Xavier, Butler & Creighton all dominated their previous homes. SLU has the $$ - time to start winning if they want to move up.

Didn't they just add UConn?

(09-16-2023 11:11 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I recall the days when Saint Louis and Memphis were members of the Missouri Valley (in the early 1970s). Later, the two schools shared membership in both The Great Midwest and Conference USA. There is no member of the Big East that would be any better a conference mate for Saint Louis men's basketball than Memphis. SLU and UM sharing a league simply "feels right" in many respects. Both on the Mississippi River. Both with very large African-American populations. Both "basketball-first cities." Having said that, the AAC cannot offer the sheer number of schools, unlike the Big East, with which SLU would be a good fit. I see minimal, if any, reason Saint Louis would be interested in the AAC

In short, Saint Louis needs to be patient and hope to land a Big East invite. And I have posted multiple times that the Big East would benefit from that addition.

The concept of Saint Louis joining C-USA is as absurd as my thoughts of landing a lovely lady by dressing like Sam Drucker (of Green Acres' fame), speaking with a French accent and growing a hulihee (look it up). Not going to happen.

On the A10 theme, Dayton, like SLU would not be a good fit for the AAC. Now VCU is a different animal, as it is a large public university with less-high-profile academic characteristics than either UD or SLU. VCU might actually be intrigued by the thought of joining the AAC. But that is a stretch too. VCU would almost certainly prefer the A10 to the AAC. But if the AAC is fortunate enough to land Army, the league should at least try to lure VCU.

Pretty sure baseball is St. Louis' first love.

(09-16-2023 01:31 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 09:47 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  [quote='goofus' pid='19148568' dateline='1694874289']
[quote='GoldenWarrior11' pid='19148549' dateline='1694873308']
I'm all for SLU in the Big East. They are an institutional fit (Jesuit)/basketball-first/non-football, would bring a strong new media/recruiting market (St. Louis) and have very strong attendance when top programs come to town. They also have the facilities. Not having an NFL or NBA team during the winter to compete with is also, IMO, a plus.

It might be surprising to most, but SLU has 8 seasons of 23+ wins in the past 15 years (08-09); only four of those seasons resulted in an NCAAT appearance. Is SLU a UConn/Gonzaga? Absolutely not. But they, IMO, continue to present a huge growth opportunity to the middle of the BE, especially when you factor in additional BET games at MSG (with a fan base that travels) and inventory that can be added/sold to FOX, CBSSN, etc.

Long-term, it also creates scheduling pairs that could make a Gonzaga addition more feasible; Creighton/SLU, Marquette/DePaul, Butler/Xavier, Villanova/Georgetown, St. John's/Hall, Providence/UConn. It's much easier for a road trip hitting two programs in close proximity (and possibly two four-game road trips to avoid returning to west coast).

SLU isn't going to the American. Neither is Dayton or VCU.

Disagree: SLU does not have a national brand that Fox can leverage, and its visibility in major college basketball is at best, limited. (Quick: Name the best player in SLU history.) It has five NCAA tournament wins in school history and hasn't got out of the second round since 1957.

Its brand is comparable to Drake and no one is arguing for Drake to join the Big East.

I named Larry Huges in a split second.

(09-16-2023 02:07 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:55 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:48 AM)Ridge1982 Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:26 AM)PicksUp Wrote:  C-USA, really?

Why would they want to join a much weaker league.

Where else will they go ? It’s either the two I mentioned or remain stuck in perpetuity in a one bid league. The BE is set with what they have.

Im not sure you understand the quality of basketball programs in CUSA now as opposed to 10 years ago. Which is coincidentally the last time CUSA had more than one bid. Houston, Memphis, Tulsa, UAB and East Carolina are long gone. The A-10 has had multiple teams in the tournament 14 out of the last 15 years.

IDK, Liberty, NMSU, Sam and Middle Tennessee have had some decent/good teams in recent years and while UTEP has been down lately, they have tradition, fan support and a good arena. Even Jacksonville State and Kennesaw State have been Dancing in recent years.

The A-10 was a 1-bid league last year, so it's obviously on the decline, not that C-USA is much better. But the conference did produce a Final Four team, granted that program is no longer around. I realize Dayton had that potential one year if not for Covid but when is the last time a team representing the conference (i.e. in the conference at the time) when to the Final Four?

One year doesn't make a trend. Before last year AAC barely had more teams in the tournament than the A10 on an average year.

(09-16-2023 01:31 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 09:47 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  [quote='goofus' pid='19148568' dateline='1694874289']
[quote='GoldenWarrior11' pid='19148549' dateline='1694873308']
I'm all for SLU in the Big East. They are an institutional fit (Jesuit)/basketball-first/non-football, would bring a strong new media/recruiting market (St. Louis) and have very strong attendance when top programs come to town. They also have the facilities. Not having an NFL or NBA team during the winter to compete with is also, IMO, a plus.

It might be surprising to most, but SLU has 8 seasons of 23+ wins in the past 15 years (08-09); only four of those seasons resulted in an NCAAT appearance. Is SLU a UConn/Gonzaga? Absolutely not. But they, IMO, continue to present a huge growth opportunity to the middle of the BE, especially when you factor in additional BET games at MSG (with a fan base that travels) and inventory that can be added/sold to FOX, CBSSN, etc.

Long-term, it also creates scheduling pairs that could make a Gonzaga addition more feasible; Creighton/SLU, Marquette/DePaul, Butler/Xavier, Villanova/Georgetown, St. John's/Hall, Providence/UConn. It's much easier for a road trip hitting two programs in close proximity (and possibly two four-game road trips to avoid returning to west coast).

SLU isn't going to the American. Neither is Dayton or VCU.

Disagree: SLU does not have a national brand that Fox can leverage, and its visibility in major college basketball is at best, limited. (Quick: Name the best player in SLU history.) It has five NCAA tournament wins in school history and hasn't got out of the second round since 1957.

Its brand is comparable to Drake and no one is arguing for Drake to join the Big East.

I remember Charlie Spoonhour.

The thing is nobody knows who the Big East wants for the 12 school. Do they want a public school like VCU or UMass or do they want a private catholic like Dayton, St Louis, or Gonzaga. Nobody knows.

(09-16-2023 02:14 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 11:11 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I recall the days when Saint Louis and Memphis were members of the Missouri Valley (in the early 1970s). Later, the two schools shared membership in both The Great Midwest and Conference USA. There is no member of the Big East that would be any better a conference mate for Saint Louis men's basketball than Memphis. SLU and UM sharing a league simply "feels right" in many respects. Both on the Mississippi River. Both with very large African-American populations. Both "basketball-first cities." Having said that, the AAC cannot offer the sheer number of schools, unlike the Big East, with which SLU would be a good fit. I see minimal, if any, reason Saint Louis would be interested in the AAC

In short, Saint Louis needs to be patient and hope to land a Big East invite. And I have posted multiple times that the Big East would benefit from that addition.

The concept of Saint Louis joining C-USA is as absurd as my thoughts of landing a lovely lady by dressing like Sam Drucker (of Green Acres' fame), speaking with a French accent and growing a hulihee (look it up). Not going to happen.

On the A10 theme, Dayton, like SLU would not be a good fit for the AAC. Now VCU is a different animal, as it is a large public university with less-high-profile academic characteristics than either UD or SLU. VCU might actually be intrigued by the thought of joining the AAC. But that is a stretch too. VCU would almost certainly prefer the A10 to the AAC. But if the AAC is fortunate enough to land Army, the league should at least try to lure VCU.

Pretty sure baseball is St. Louis' first love.

I forgot about the Cardinals. Good point.

(09-16-2023 02:51 PM)darkdragon99 Wrote:  The thing is nobody knows who the Big East wants for the 12 school. Do they want a public school like VCU or UMass or do they want a private catholic like Dayton, St Louis, or Gonzaga. Nobody knows.

The last time the Big East expanded, it took a program with whom many members had a long history. With that in mind, my best guess is that the Big East will wait on expansion until we see what happens to the ACC in the next round of realignment. It very well may end up that one or more from among BC, Syracuse, or ND wind up looking to rejoin the Big East, and the Big East would welcome any of them with open arms (UConn may vote against BC or ND, but they'd be outvoted.) They also would consider Duke or Wake Forest, despite the absence of history with those schools, if they were interested in joining.

SLU is probably the most likely A-10 member to receive a Big East callup, but the Big East would prefer any of those schools (and in the future, none of them is an impossible dream for the Big East) to SLU. Sucks for SLU, but that's the way it is.

(09-16-2023 02:14 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 11:11 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I recall the days when Saint Louis and Memphis were members of the Missouri Valley (in the early 1970s). Later, the two schools shared membership in both The Great Midwest and Conference USA. There is no member of the Big East that would be any better a conference mate for Saint Louis men's basketball than Memphis. SLU and UM sharing a league simply "feels right" in many respects. Both on the Mississippi River. Both with very large African-American populations. Both "basketball-first cities." Having said that, the AAC cannot offer the sheer number of schools, unlike the Big East, with which SLU would be a good fit. I see minimal, if any, reason Saint Louis would be interested in the AAC

In short, Saint Louis needs to be patient and hope to land a Big East invite. And I have posted multiple times that the Big East would benefit from that addition.

The concept of Saint Louis joining C-USA is as absurd as my thoughts of landing a lovely lady by dressing like Sam Drucker (of Green Acres' fame), speaking with a French accent and growing a hulihee (look it up). Not going to happen.

On the A10 theme, Dayton, like SLU would not be a good fit for the AAC. Now VCU is a different animal, as it is a large public university with less-high-profile academic characteristics than either UD or SLU. VCU might actually be intrigued by the thought of joining the AAC. But that is a stretch too. VCU would almost certainly prefer the A10 to the AAC. But if the AAC is fortunate enough to land Army, the league should at least try to lure VCU.

Pretty sure baseball is St. Louis' first love.

Basketball isn’t even in the top-3 in St. Louis.

(09-16-2023 05:40 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 02:14 PM)C2__ Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 11:11 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I recall the days when Saint Louis and Memphis were members of the Missouri Valley (in the early 1970s). Later, the two schools shared membership in both The Great Midwest and Conference USA. There is no member of the Big East that would be any better a conference mate for Saint Louis men's basketball than Memphis. SLU and UM sharing a league simply "feels right" in many respects. Both on the Mississippi River. Both with very large African-American populations. Both "basketball-first cities." Having said that, the AAC cannot offer the sheer number of schools, unlike the Big East, with which SLU would be a good fit. I see minimal, if any, reason Saint Louis would be interested in the AAC

In short, Saint Louis needs to be patient and hope to land a Big East invite. And I have posted multiple times that the Big East would benefit from that addition.

The concept of Saint Louis joining C-USA is as absurd as my thoughts of landing a lovely lady by dressing like Sam Drucker (of Green Acres' fame), speaking with a French accent and growing a hulihee (look it up). Not going to happen.

On the A10 theme, Dayton, like SLU would not be a good fit for the AAC. Now VCU is a different animal, as it is a large public university with less-high-profile academic characteristics than either UD or SLU. VCU might actually be intrigued by the thought of joining the AAC. But that is a stretch too. VCU would almost certainly prefer the A10 to the AAC. But if the AAC is fortunate enough to land Army, the league should at least try to lure VCU.

Pretty sure baseball is St. Louis' first love.

Basketball isn’t even in the top-3 in St. Louis.

I would be highly surprised (and maybe shocked) if that is true for the bulk of the tens of thousands of African-American sports fans living in St. Louis, IWULT.

I hadn't even considered the fact that if the ACC does implode, a lot of the left behinds could be former Big East schools that might be interested in the UConn model.

Finally a thread with some sense about these non-football schools. The AAC has no value to schools without FBS football.

I think the A-10 would be a great fit for Saint Louis.

Know what I mean?

(09-16-2023 08:37 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The A-10 is clearly a better basketball league than C-USA and, with the changes to the AAC membership, will likely be consistently better than them, too.

There’s an argument that the AAC could offer more money (although a 20% share of what the new members are getting as opposed to what the legacy members like Memphis and Tulane are getting may not have it pan out that way), but even then, that means subjecting yourselves as a non-football member to the whims of football-focused realignment.

I don’t see why SLU (or Dayton or VCU or anyone from the A-10) would leave for anyone other than the Big East at this point. My understanding is that SLU has always liked the East Coast focus and large number of Catholic schools in the A-10 and the one gap (the lack of a school in Chicago, which is SLU’s largest source of students outside of Missouri) has now been filled by Loyola. I mean, I guess if there’s an overwhelming offer of more money from the AAC or someone else, then you can’t rule out anything, but I don’t think the Wichita State-level money is getting offered to new members, which means the gap between the A-10 and AAC financially may not really exist (or at least isn’t materially different in the way fans are building it up in their minds). C-USA ought to be a complete non-starter for any A-10 member.

SLU and Dayton should be in the Big East but Xavier won't allow it.

Outside of a blockbuster add like Gonzaga does the Big East even want or need a 12th? 11 allows for a double round robin with 20 conference games. Outside of Gonzaga who would Fox pay more money?

(09-16-2023 07:12 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(09-16-2023 08:37 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The A-10 is clearly a better basketball league than C-USA and, with the changes to the AAC membership, will likely be consistently better than them, too.

There’s an argument that the AAC could offer more money (although a 20% share of what the new members are getting as opposed to what the legacy members like Memphis and Tulane are getting may not have it pan out that way), but even then, that means subjecting yourselves as a non-football member to the whims of football-focused realignment.

I don’t see why SLU (or Dayton or VCU or anyone from the A-10) would leave for anyone other than the Big East at this point. My understanding is that SLU has always liked the East Coast focus and large number of Catholic schools in the A-10 and the one gap (the lack of a school in Chicago, which is SLU’s largest source of students outside of Missouri) has now been filled by Loyola. I mean, I guess if there’s an overwhelming offer of more money from the AAC or someone else, then you can’t rule out anything, but I don’t think the Wichita State-level money is getting offered to new members, which means the gap between the A-10 and AAC financially may not really exist (or at least isn’t materially different in the way fans are building it up in their minds). C-USA ought to be a complete non-starter for any A-10 member.

SLU and Dayton should be in the Big East but Xavier won't allow it.

I think that would be subtraction by addition.

At best, they'd add value just on a pro rata basis, not enhance the TV value. They wouldn't help increase the percentage of schools getting NCAA bids. If they normally get 6/11 (55%) of schools in the NCAA's, they might go up to 7/13 (54%). They'd end the double round robin. And it's not like the Big East is hurting. They won three national titles in their first ten years since leaving the football schools. UConn sure doesn't need them. Villanova doesn't either. Xavier? Nope.

I really don't have a self-interest in whether Dayton or Saint Louis join the Big East. I just don't see the justification. Seems like expansion just for expansion's sake.

They add no value to the Big East. Same could be said for the AAC. Why would the AAC want Dayton or St. Louis? Seems like expanding just to expand. 16-18 team conferences are now a good thing.