(05-03-2023 04:35 PM)uhcoog27 Wrote:  

(04-30-2023 12:21 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  One of the issues in Texas is that there are only 2 AAU level public schools in Texas---and both are full and difficult to get into even if you have the grades.

I agree that a state the size of Texas needs to elevate its other public universities. But A&M is not particularly difficult to get into. I believe their acceptance rate is around 65%, which falls right in line with UH and Texas Tech.

but of course anyone that understands math also understands that "acceptance rate" is a totally and completely meaningless metric that says nothing about the ease or difficulty of actually being admitted to a university

in the "national university" category of the US Snooze rankings the 4th lowest acceptance rate in Texas is A&M Commerce followed by Texas Wesleyan then SMU, TCU, Tarleton State, Baylor, and Texas Southern....then A&M College Station then Our Lady Of The Lake then uH, then Tech, Abilene Christian University, TxState, PVAMU, north Texas state, and UTD

when UTD has admissions requirements that are near equal to A&M and a number of those on the list above have admissions that are not much more than "fogs a mirror" or "can breath"

because a university manages to get a very large number of applicants they deem as not qualified does not mean they are difficult to get into.....it often mean they just get a lot of really bad applicants and turn a ton of them down

Last I checked UNT was an R1 Research University and Texas State was an R2.

(05-03-2023 10:14 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  Last I checked UNT was an R1 Research University and Texas State was an R2.

last I checked:

1. those are not rankings they are classifications

2. they infer nothing about the quality of a university or their teaching

3. they are not to be used to imply any comparison of universities in the same classification or those in other classifications

4. they have no reflection on the quality of the research only quantity and really not even that

and thus those classifications show really nothing meaningful relative to what the AAU would look at

but we can look at some meaningful things the AAU does like (or The State of Texas likes)

1. endowment

Tx State $334 million
north Texas state $276 million

neither are close to AAU like, but one is higher than the other by a meaningful amount

2. Restricted research (as defined by The state of Texas) in 2022

Texas State $41 million
north Texas state $24 million

3. federally financed research and development (AAU likes competitively awarded research and in specific areas)

Institution Rank ....2010 ....2011 ...2012 .....2013 ...2014 ....2015 ....2016 ....2017 ....2018 ....2019 ....2020 ....2021

Texas State 189 ....8,904 ...10,319 ...11,950 ..14,908 ....14,243 .18,289.. 21,049.. 25,132 ..30,314 ...29,614 ..26,950 ..31,116

north Texas St. 227 14,444 ..14,754 ....18,043 ..16,515 ...16,318 ..15,470 ..12,621 ..15,668 ..19,026 ....17,345 .13,653 ..18,702

so over an 11 year period Texas State went from $9 million to $31 million while north Texas state went from $14.5 million to $18.7 million

4. research per FTE (full time faculty equivalent only research not development from The State of Texas)

2016 Public Universities Texas State University 56,032
2016 Public Universities University of North Texas 30,131

2017 Public Universities Texas State University 63,613
2017 Public Universities University of North Texas 35,154

2018 Public Universities Texas State University 74,053
2018 Public Universities University of North Texas 38,853

2019 Public Universities Texas State University 72,734
2019 Public Universities University of North Texas 37,572

2020 Public Universities Texas State University 65,016
2020 Public Universities University of North Texas 32,017

2021 Public Universities Texas State University 71,211
2021 Public Universities University of North Texas 38,763

5. all research and development north Texas state is ahead here for the last three years

Institution ........Rank ......2018 ......2019...... 2020 ......2021

north Texas state 174 ...44,025 ....78,691.... 84,239 ...81,252

Texas State U. 176... 64,322... ....64,554... 70,714 ...72,510

one would say good news

but not really since we are talking about AAU metrics and pretty much all of that growth in research those last three years was "self funded" research or "university funded research" and the AAU does not generally care a great deal about that

they like competitively awarded funding and even more so they really like it in the life sciences and STEM areas so a university funding a lot of their own research is not something they are impressed with

(05-03-2023 04:35 PM)uhcoog27 Wrote:  

(04-30-2023 12:21 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  One of the issues in Texas is that there are only 2 AAU level public schools in Texas---and both are full and difficult to get into even if you have the grades.

I agree that a state the size of Texas needs to elevate its other public universities. But A&M is not particularly difficult to get into. I believe their acceptance rate is around 65%, which falls right in line with UH and Texas Tech.

The popularity of the school with applicants caused the top 10% rule in order to allow for reasonably equal access opportunity regardless of the public high school one attends. If you finish in the top 10% of your high school class---regardless of the schools rating----you get automatic acceptance to UT or A&M. That creates a situation where there are a number of people who have the grades---but cant get in because Texas and Texas A&M simply dont have the space. Overcrowding became such an issue that I think UT automatic acceptance has been adjusted downward to just the top 6%. These students with great grades, who cant get into Texas or Texas A&M, are often leaving the state because they dont perceive other public Texas higher education options as attractive enough. Increasing the number of AAU quality educational options would allow these students to stay in Texas and still obtain a degree from a institution that was perceived as similar to "AAU quality" in the marketplace.

(05-04-2023 12:32 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 04:35 PM)uhcoog27 Wrote:  

(04-30-2023 12:21 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  One of the issues in Texas is that there are only 2 AAU level public schools in Texas---and both are full and difficult to get into even if you have the grades.

I agree that a state the size of Texas needs to elevate its other public universities. But A&M is not particularly difficult to get into. I believe their acceptance rate is around 65%, which falls right in line with UH and Texas Tech.

The popularity of the school with applicants caused the top 10% rule in order to allow for reasonably equal access opportunity regardless of the public high school one attends. If you finish in the top 10% of your high school class---regardless of the schools rating----you get automatic acceptance to UT or A&M. That creates a situation where there are a number of people who have the grades---but cant get in because Texas and Texas A&M simply dont have the space. Overcrowding became such an issue that I think UT automatic acceptance has been adjusted downward to just the top 6%. These students with great grades, who cant get into Texas or Texas A&M, are often leaving the state because they dont perceive other public Texas higher education options as attractive enough. Increasing the number of AAU quality educational options would allow these students to stay in Texas and still obtain a degree from a institution that was perceived as similar to "AAU quality" in the marketplace.

At Arkansas, Texas students are about 1/3 of the student population. By and large it's kids who preferred Arkansas to their in-state options after UT/A&M. They bring in a ton of money for the university even with generous out of state tuition waivers. It seems to be a combination of being a reasonable drive from DFW (easily the biggest area for them) and offering big time SEC athletics. I've had students tell me that they wanted to be here for the SEC football atmosphere and big Greek scene versus UH, UTD/A, or UNT and without having to drive out to New Mexico Lubbock.

I hear the situation is similar at OU, OSU, and LSU as well, though I don't know any of the statistics.

(05-04-2023 03:41 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 12:32 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 04:35 PM)uhcoog27 Wrote:  

(04-30-2023 12:21 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  One of the issues in Texas is that there are only 2 AAU level public schools in Texas---and both are full and difficult to get into even if you have the grades.

I agree that a state the size of Texas needs to elevate its other public universities. But A&M is not particularly difficult to get into. I believe their acceptance rate is around 65%, which falls right in line with UH and Texas Tech.

The popularity of the school with applicants caused the top 10% rule in order to allow for reasonably equal access opportunity regardless of the public high school one attends. If you finish in the top 10% of your high school class---regardless of the schools rating----you get automatic acceptance to UT or A&M. That creates a situation where there are a number of people who have the grades---but cant get in because Texas and Texas A&M simply dont have the space. Overcrowding became such an issue that I think UT automatic acceptance has been adjusted downward to just the top 6%. These students with great grades, who cant get into Texas or Texas A&M, are often leaving the state because they dont perceive other public Texas higher education options as attractive enough. Increasing the number of AAU quality educational options would allow these students to stay in Texas and still obtain a degree from a institution that was perceived as similar to "AAU quality" in the marketplace.

At Arkansas, Texas students are about 1/3 of the student population. By and large it's kids who preferred Arkansas to their in-state options after UT/A&M. They bring in a ton of money for the university even with generous out of state tuition waivers. It seems to be a combination of being a reasonable drive from DFW (easily the biggest area for them) and offering big time SEC athletics. I've had students tell me that they wanted to be here for the SEC football atmosphere and big Greek scene versus UH, UTD/A, or UNT and without having to drive out to New Mexico Lubbock.

I hear the situation is similar at OU, OSU, and LSU as well, though I don't know any of the statistics.

Ole' Miss is another one that has sought Texas students for a LONG time and I know the out of state enrollment for Alabama is massive and the places they are coming from would shock people....upper midwest ect

part of the deal also is when you are at Arkansas you are at the one and only flagship/land grant school in the state so you can tell yourself you are at a place you really want to be and in the case of the in state students around you they are where they want to be.....at the top public university in their state and no one tries to bring up the overall rankings of the university compared to any other option......same with LSU

with OkState and OU or Ole' Miss (MSU not as popular like that) well they are states with the split land grant and "arts and sciences" schools, but the two top public schools in the state

all of those schools listed also have a full on "college town" experience....Lubbock does for sure, but it is a haul there (they do pull out of the Houston area though especially the northern suburbs for students that want to be a LONG WAYS from home)

uH well location location location....gives a new meaning to "safety school"

north Texas state still a commuter school and still trying to keep that alive with special admissions (reduced) for some DFW area schools

Texas State was forever "live in Austin drive to school", but 6th street is not garbage and the I-35 traffic and Austin cost of living makes that all but impossible and they have really improved a lot of things and it is an amazing campus overall

I don't think Texas is ever going to keep a a large % of those students that go out of state for various reasons, but I think Tech and Texas State have a chance to actually recruit from out of state with a bump in reputation and to keep some top tier students in state with an elevated reputation

so far neither have made the move admissions wise to help that happen, but with their enrollment sizes now and with a possibility that The State of Texas will fund some based in graduation metrics in the future both of those schools are in a position to start elevating admissions metrics which over time can help reputation which will then attract students with better metrics...and repeat

UTD is really the example that reputation can build enrollment which then can be used to again build reputation and repeat....they had some advantages though in that process

the others have the enrollment (and some the location) now it is time to work things to bump up the freshman metrics and then the graduation metrics and repeat

(05-04-2023 12:05 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 10:14 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  Last I checked UNT was an R1 Research University and Texas State was an R2.

last I checked:

1. those are not rankings they are classifications

2. they infer nothing about the quality of a university or their teaching

3. they are not to be used to imply any comparison of universities in the same classification or those in other classifications

4. they have no reflection on the quality of the research only quantity and really not even that

and thus those classifications show really nothing meaningful relative to what the AAU would look at

but we can look at some meaningful things the AAU does like (or The State of Texas likes)

1. endowment

Tx State $334 million
north Texas state $276 million

neither are close to AAU like, but one is higher than the other by a meaningful amount

2. Restricted research (as defined by The state of Texas) in 2022

Texas State $41 million
north Texas state $24 million

3. federally financed research and development (AAU likes competitively awarded research and in specific areas)

Institution Rank ....2010 ....2011 ...2012 .....2013 ...2014 ....2015 ....2016 ....2017 ....2018 ....2019 ....2020 ....2021

Texas State 189 ....8,904 ...10,319 ...11,950 ..14,908 ....14,243 .18,289.. 21,049.. 25,132 ..30,314 ...29,614 ..26,950 ..31,116

north Texas St. 227 14,444 ..14,754 ....18,043 ..16,515 ...16,318 ..15,470 ..12,621 ..15,668 ..19,026 ....17,345 .13,653 ..18,702

so over an 11 year period Texas State went from $9 million to $31 million while north Texas state went from $14.5 million to $18.7 million

4. research per FTE (full time faculty equivalent only research not development from The State of Texas)

2016 Public Universities Texas State University 56,032
2016 Public Universities University of North Texas 30,131

2017 Public Universities Texas State University 63,613
2017 Public Universities University of North Texas 35,154

2018 Public Universities Texas State University 74,053
2018 Public Universities University of North Texas 38,853

2019 Public Universities Texas State University 72,734
2019 Public Universities University of North Texas 37,572

2020 Public Universities Texas State University 65,016
2020 Public Universities University of North Texas 32,017

2021 Public Universities Texas State University 71,211
2021 Public Universities University of North Texas 38,763

5. all research and development north Texas state is ahead here for the last three years

Institution ........Rank ......2018 ......2019...... 2020 ......2021

north Texas state 174 ...44,025 ....78,691.... 84,239 ...81,252

Texas State U. 176... 64,322... ....64,554... 70,714 ...72,510

one would say good news

but not really since we are talking about AAU metrics and pretty much all of that growth in research those last three years was "self funded" research or "university funded research" and the AAU does not generally care a great deal about that

they like competitively awarded funding and even more so they really like it in the life sciences and STEM areas so a university funding a lot of their own research is not something they are impressed with

So you're telling me that being an R2 university is as good or better than being designated an R1 university?

(05-05-2023 08:16 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 12:05 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 10:14 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  Last I checked UNT was an R1 Research University and Texas State was an R2.

last I checked:

1. those are not rankings they are classifications

2. they infer nothing about the quality of a university or their teaching

3. they are not to be used to imply any comparison of universities in the same classification or those in other classifications

4. they have no reflection on the quality of the research only quantity and really not even that

and thus those classifications show really nothing meaningful relative to what the AAU would look at

but we can look at some meaningful things the AAU does like (or The State of Texas likes)

1. endowment

Tx State $334 million
north Texas state $276 million

neither are close to AAU like, but one is higher than the other by a meaningful amount

2. Restricted research (as defined by The state of Texas) in 2022

Texas State $41 million
north Texas state $24 million

3. federally financed research and development (AAU likes competitively awarded research and in specific areas)

Institution Rank ....2010 ....2011 ...2012 .....2013 ...2014 ....2015 ....2016 ....2017 ....2018 ....2019 ....2020 ....2021

Texas State 189 ....8,904 ...10,319 ...11,950 ..14,908 ....14,243 .18,289.. 21,049.. 25,132 ..30,314 ...29,614 ..26,950 ..31,116

north Texas St. 227 14,444 ..14,754 ....18,043 ..16,515 ...16,318 ..15,470 ..12,621 ..15,668 ..19,026 ....17,345 .13,653 ..18,702

so over an 11 year period Texas State went from $9 million to $31 million while north Texas state went from $14.5 million to $18.7 million

4. research per FTE (full time faculty equivalent only research not development from The State of Texas)

2016 Public Universities Texas State University 56,032
2016 Public Universities University of North Texas 30,131

2017 Public Universities Texas State University 63,613
2017 Public Universities University of North Texas 35,154

2018 Public Universities Texas State University 74,053
2018 Public Universities University of North Texas 38,853

2019 Public Universities Texas State University 72,734
2019 Public Universities University of North Texas 37,572

2020 Public Universities Texas State University 65,016
2020 Public Universities University of North Texas 32,017

2021 Public Universities Texas State University 71,211
2021 Public Universities University of North Texas 38,763

5. all research and development north Texas state is ahead here for the last three years

Institution ........Rank ......2018 ......2019...... 2020 ......2021

north Texas state 174 ...44,025 ....78,691.... 84,239 ...81,252

Texas State U. 176... 64,322... ....64,554... 70,714 ...72,510

one would say good news

but not really since we are talking about AAU metrics and pretty much all of that growth in research those last three years was "self funded" research or "university funded research" and the AAU does not generally care a great deal about that

they like competitively awarded funding and even more so they really like it in the life sciences and STEM areas so a university funding a lot of their own research is not something they are impressed with

So you're telling me that being an R2 university is as good or better than being designated an R1 university?

I am telling you that there are no degrees of better or worse associated with those classifications

they are not any indication of the quality of a university......this directly from the Carnegie Foundation

I am also telling you that in terms of what the AAU evaluates federal research and competitively awarded research is a much bigger factor and Texas State is well ahead in those areas as the numbers show

I could be wrong, but I believe you need to be invited or sponsored for admission to the AAU.

My understanding was that Rice 'sponsored' TAMU. (It wasn't going to be UT was it?)

This would also explain all of the University of California system AAU members (?).

(05-05-2023 09:46 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 08:16 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 12:05 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 10:14 PM)Side.Show.Joe Wrote:  Last I checked UNT was an R1 Research University and Texas State was an R2.

last I checked:

1. those are not rankings they are classifications

2. they infer nothing about the quality of a university or their teaching

3. they are not to be used to imply any comparison of universities in the same classification or those in other classifications

4. they have no reflection on the quality of the research only quantity and really not even that

and thus those classifications show really nothing meaningful relative to what the AAU would look at

but we can look at some meaningful things the AAU does like (or The State of Texas likes)

1. endowment

Tx State $334 million
north Texas state $276 million

neither are close to AAU like, but one is higher than the other by a meaningful amount

2. Restricted research (as defined by The state of Texas) in 2022

Texas State $41 million
north Texas state $24 million

3. federally financed research and development (AAU likes competitively awarded research and in specific areas)

Institution Rank ....2010 ....2011 ...2012 .....2013 ...2014 ....2015 ....2016 ....2017 ....2018 ....2019 ....2020 ....2021

Texas State 189 ....8,904 ...10,319 ...11,950 ..14,908 ....14,243 .18,289.. 21,049.. 25,132 ..30,314 ...29,614 ..26,950 ..31,116

north Texas St. 227 14,444 ..14,754 ....18,043 ..16,515 ...16,318 ..15,470 ..12,621 ..15,668 ..19,026 ....17,345 .13,653 ..18,702

so over an 11 year period Texas State went from $9 million to $31 million while north Texas state went from $14.5 million to $18.7 million

4. research per FTE (full time faculty equivalent only research not development from The State of Texas)

2016 Public Universities Texas State University 56,032
2016 Public Universities University of North Texas 30,131

2017 Public Universities Texas State University 63,613
2017 Public Universities University of North Texas 35,154

2018 Public Universities Texas State University 74,053
2018 Public Universities University of North Texas 38,853

2019 Public Universities Texas State University 72,734
2019 Public Universities University of North Texas 37,572

2020 Public Universities Texas State University 65,016
2020 Public Universities University of North Texas 32,017

2021 Public Universities Texas State University 71,211
2021 Public Universities University of North Texas 38,763

5. all research and development north Texas state is ahead here for the last three years

Institution ........Rank ......2018 ......2019...... 2020 ......2021

north Texas state 174 ...44,025 ....78,691.... 84,239 ...81,252

Texas State U. 176... 64,322... ....64,554... 70,714 ...72,510

one would say good news

but not really since we are talking about AAU metrics and pretty much all of that growth in research those last three years was "self funded" research or "university funded research" and the AAU does not generally care a great deal about that

they like competitively awarded funding and even more so they really like it in the life sciences and STEM areas so a university funding a lot of their own research is not something they are impressed with

So you're telling me that being an R2 university is as good or better than being designated an R1 university?

I am telling you that there are no degrees of better or worse associated with those classifications

they are not any indication of the quality of a university......this directly from the Carnegie Foundation

I am also telling you that in terms of what the AAU evaluates federal research and competitively awarded research is a much bigger factor and Texas State is well ahead in those areas as the numbers show

The World University Rankings place UNT much higher than Texas State, and that includes our research rankings too.

https://cwur.org/2023.php

And as for Carnegie status, I'd rather be a R1 university over an R2. Logical people would agree.

clt had never heard of texas state before reading this chat page. are they fcs?

(05-20-2023 03:32 PM)ghostofclt! Wrote:  clt had never heard of texas state before reading this chat page. are they fcs?

Southwest Texas State Normal School is the alma mater of Lyndon Johnson.

Rice and SMU aren’t worried about anyone’s endowment