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(05-04-2023 07:47 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 06:18 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 10:00 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 08:32 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-03-2023 06:00 PM)scvanguard1 Wrote:  Wish Ben well.

Let the Jones/Prater debate begin! Go!

No debate whatsoever...Prater isn't up to the challenge. Jones this year and hoping Drogosh or Lichtenberg can figure it out for next year.

I'm going to break Bear Catlett's heart, but if Prater is the guy we won't win 4 games. It'd be awesome.

I guess your short span of attention didn't last past a mere two posts prior.

I expect this staff to actually coach the QB's this year and if one doesn't produce, then the next one in line should be prepared to come in the game.

I also expect that they will have some RPO plays in the playbook and not just set a statue out there and hope that he decides to throw the ball before the rush gets there to sack him.

And since you sound like a guy with a lot of time on your hands, go back and rewatch the USF game and the Tulane game up to the point when the defense allowed them to walk down the field for the winning TD.

I was poking fun since you stated the Free Prater Fan Club during the first half of the Arkansas game.

Prater is still a long term project even on a good day.

Yeah, it seemed like the thing to do considering our high powered offense hadn't scored a single point.

(05-04-2023 11:47 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  To be fair, you could say the same thing about Ridder.

Ridder had NFL running backs & tight ends his whole time here. Warren/Doaks/Ford, Deguara/Whyle. Des's skill players were much more talented than the mediocre AAC competition we faced.

And one of the best defenses in the country to bail the QB out & give great field position.

I thought most of Ridder's improvement in his senior year was because of the surprising emergence of Alec Pierce as an NFL-caliber starting WR. Pierce seemed to catch anything thrown on his half of the field.

My point was never that Des didn't have weapons...they both had weapons, just that I don't think we had any evidence Bryant would have been nearly the player Des was if their careers were flipped. Des was a special player, the kind of player we haven't seen at UC in my lifetime at that position. Des had an incredible college career. He had some accuracy issues early on, and in his second year he struggled throwing when he was hurt the back half of the year... but after a couple meh stars early his junior year he was pretty great the rest of the way and his senior year he was exceptional. He was accurate, he was great at reading the defense, going through his progressions and didn't panic under pressure (and like Ben, he didn't have the best of offensive lines...I think Des/Ford hid the offensive line weaknesses for the 2021 team).

I don't think Des gets enough credit from many around here. I'm really excited to see how he does in Atlanta this year. Feels like the Falcons are giving him every chance to be their QB, knowing that if it doesn't work this year, the QB class is expected to be pretty great in next year's draft.

Desmond Ridder is a starting QB in the NFL.

Ben Bryant would have to have a career season this year to even be considered as an UFA.

(05-05-2023 09:16 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Desmond Ridder is a starting QB in the NFL.

Ben Bryant would have to have a career season this year to even be considered as an UFA.

Agreed, but with Northwestern going to a spread and Bryant's career best basically being 254 yards and 2 TDs per game, I don't think "career year" is going to be much of a hurdle for him to jump over this year if he starts all 12 for NW. I'd imagine he ends up somewhere around 3,200 yards and 25-28 TDs if he is the full-time starter there this year...he is a very competent QB at worst, unfortunately the scheme here just wasn't built for him and the play on the line didn't benefit a pocket passer.

(05-04-2023 05:13 PM)Sweetness Wrote:  

(05-04-2023 12:35 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  I have no idea.

However, if Bryant is truly an NFL-caliber QB, then Satterfield is insane to let him go. If you have that type of talent, you should build your playbook around the talent rather than go shopping for a project who is coming off an injury.

Dude is comparing Sean Clifford, a 4 year starter at Penn State who lead them to an 11-2 record and winner of the Rose Bowl, to Ben Bryant. A mediocre MAC starter.

I mean yeah he was the starter at Penn State but whether that was because he was the best QB there is up for debate. Ben Bryant has a better arm than him by a pretty decent amount.

Ben's also a lot better than the other St. X QB who supplanted his spot on Wisconsin.

None of this is really an endoresement of Ben as an NFL QB either. Only to say that the talent at the back end of the draft for QBs isn't as far off as youd think. And if Sean Clifford can get drafted at age 24 Ben Bryant has a chance, because he's at least as good as Clifford and probably has more NFL upside.

i'm of the school that think emory and evan should be on the field together

Thinking of Prater as kind of like the Steelers used to use Kordell Stewart or maybe Antwaan Randle El?

(05-05-2023 11:27 AM)Lush Wrote:  i'm of the school that think emory and evan should be on the field together

I think the A-11 is illegal in College Football...despite it being absolutely batshit and nearly unstoppable lol.

(05-05-2023 11:58 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Thinking of Prater as kind of like the Steelers used to use Kordell Stewart or maybe Antwaan Randle El?

Welcome.

Thanks for joining me here outside the box

(05-05-2023 11:58 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Thinking of Prater as kind of like the Steelers used to use Kordell Stewart or maybe Antwaan Randle El?

So Kordell was a full time QB and Randle El was a WR who would throw a random occasional pass...which are you suggesting. I'd also say that Kordell Stewart was an objectively bad QB who had a HOF running back taking 300+ carries a season. If we had Jerome Ford or Isaiah Pead back there, I would have been way more open with having Prater in last season.

I think Prater has the athleticism to make the move to WR, however, I have no idea of his hands, ability to learn a route tree, and take a hit (considering he is a bean pole still after 3 years), but I also think he would be far too one-dimensional as a QB to be truly effective in an outside zone scheme that relies on passing to hold the defensive backfield in order to isolate zone overloads for the front seven and to put DBs on islands in run support. If you allow a team to run zero against you because you have very little threat to hurt a team through the air, it drastically impacts the effectiveness of the offense overall.

Truth be told, Prater could be a damn effective QB in the right scheme...the inverted veer that was run at Auburn in the early '10s is somewhere he could really shine. Something that utilizes his athleticism first, keeps the defensive backfield's eyes in on the QB instead of their man, and makes a guy far less athletic than Prater make a play on him. Last year, anyone could see that the scheme we were running would never work for him with his limited skillset, and when the Tulane game came along, you saw why...they essentially dared us to pass over the top by running full zero coverage with a mix in of dash zones (blitzing out of zone coverage to send 6-7 out) making Prater make snap decisions/diagnose a play pre-snap or be incredibly accurate under pressure, both things anyone who has seen him play or practice knows aren't things he can do.

I just don't know if it's this scheme Satterfield runs, and I think there is a guy now on the roster who is a better fit in the Outside Zone out of a spread than him in Drogosh (not saying much, because they both have a lot of room to develop in both areas). Having seen more than a few games of both playing QB in HS, Drogosh is much, much further along than Prater was when he stepped foot on campus, and I'm not so sure that Prater has developed since he has been here.

(05-05-2023 12:03 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 11:27 AM)Lush Wrote:  i'm of the school that think emory and evan should be on the field together

I think the A-11 is illegal in College Football...despite it being absolutely batshit and nearly unstoppable lol.

make him a running back

(05-05-2023 12:51 PM)Lush Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 12:03 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 11:27 AM)Lush Wrote:  i'm of the school that think emory and evan should be on the field together

I think the A-11 is illegal in College Football...despite it being absolutely batshit and nearly unstoppable lol.

make him a running back

Yeah...that may work for the 8 plays he runs before he is broken in half by a 300lbs defensive tackle on a dive play. I think if he wants to see the field here, he either needs to really change how he prepares and how he throws the ball, or figure out how to play receiver very quickly (which is an incredibly tough transition to make despite what Randle-El, Edelman, and Hines Ward made people believe. He is athletic enough to do it...but who knows if he has the head (and lack of ego) for it.

He perhaps should have listened to some of the schools who told him he had a brighter future as a WR.

(05-05-2023 09:16 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Desmond Ridder is a starting QB in the NFL.

Ben Bryant would have to have a career season this year to even be considered as an UFA.

But Prater should have been starting all last year.

(05-05-2023 12:42 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 11:58 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Thinking of Prater as kind of like the Steelers used to use Kordell Stewart or maybe Antwaan Randle El?

So Kordell was a full time QB and Randle El was a WR who would throw a random occasional pass...which are you suggesting. I'd also say that Kordell Stewart was an objectively bad QB who had a HOF running back taking 300+ carries a season. If we had Jerome Ford or Isaiah Pead back there, I would have been way more open with having Prater in last season.

I think Prater has the athleticism to make the move to WR, however, I have no idea of his hands, ability to learn a route tree, and take a hit (considering he is a bean pole still after 3 years), but I also think he would be far too one-dimensional as a QB to be truly effective in an outside zone scheme that relies on passing to hold the defensive backfield in order to isolate zone overloads for the front seven and to put DBs on islands in run support. If you allow a team to run zero against you because you have very little threat to hurt a team through the air, it drastically impacts the effectiveness of the offense overall.

Truth be told, Prater could be a damn effective QB in the right scheme...the inverted veer that was run at Auburn in the early '10s is somewhere he could really shine. Something that utilizes his athleticism first, keeps the defensive backfield's eyes in on the QB instead of their man, and makes a guy far less athletic than Prater make a play on him. Last year, anyone could see that the scheme we were running would never work for him with his limited skillset, and when the Tulane game came along, you saw why...they essentially dared us to pass over the top by running full zero coverage with a mix in of dash zones (blitzing out of zone coverage to send 6-7 out) making Prater make snap decisions/diagnose a play pre-snap or be incredibly accurate under pressure, both things anyone who has seen him play or practice knows aren't things he can do.

I just don't know if it's this scheme Satterfield runs, and I think there is a guy now on the roster who is a better fit in the Outside Zone out of a spread than him in Drogosh (not saying much, because they both have a lot of room to develop in both areas). Having seen more than a few games of both playing QB in HS, Drogosh is much, much further along than Prater was when he stepped foot on campus, and I'm not so sure that Prater has developed since he has been here.

Welcome to the party pal.

And for those who say he can't pass, I will remind him that he hit now NFL WR Tyler Scott right in the chest with what may have been the winning TD against Tulane and it was flat out DROPPED.

(05-05-2023 01:13 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 12:42 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 11:58 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Thinking of Prater as kind of like the Steelers used to use Kordell Stewart or maybe Antwaan Randle El?

So Kordell was a full time QB and Randle El was a WR who would throw a random occasional pass...which are you suggesting. I'd also say that Kordell Stewart was an objectively bad QB who had a HOF running back taking 300+ carries a season. If we had Jerome Ford or Isaiah Pead back there, I would have been way more open with having Prater in last season.

I think Prater has the athleticism to make the move to WR, however, I have no idea of his hands, ability to learn a route tree, and take a hit (considering he is a bean pole still after 3 years), but I also think he would be far too one-dimensional as a QB to be truly effective in an outside zone scheme that relies on passing to hold the defensive backfield in order to isolate zone overloads for the front seven and to put DBs on islands in run support. If you allow a team to run zero against you because you have very little threat to hurt a team through the air, it drastically impacts the effectiveness of the offense overall.

Truth be told, Prater could be a damn effective QB in the right scheme...the inverted veer that was run at Auburn in the early '10s is somewhere he could really shine. Something that utilizes his athleticism first, keeps the defensive backfield's eyes in on the QB instead of their man, and makes a guy far less athletic than Prater make a play on him. Last year, anyone could see that the scheme we were running would never work for him with his limited skillset, and when the Tulane game came along, you saw why...they essentially dared us to pass over the top by running full zero coverage with a mix in of dash zones (blitzing out of zone coverage to send 6-7 out) making Prater make snap decisions/diagnose a play pre-snap or be incredibly accurate under pressure, both things anyone who has seen him play or practice knows aren't things he can do.

I just don't know if it's this scheme Satterfield runs, and I think there is a guy now on the roster who is a better fit in the Outside Zone out of a spread than him in Drogosh (not saying much, because they both have a lot of room to develop in both areas). Having seen more than a few games of both playing QB in HS, Drogosh is much, much further along than Prater was when he stepped foot on campus, and I'm not so sure that Prater has developed since he has been here.

Welcome to the party pal.

And for those who say he can't pass, I will remind him that he hit now NFL WR Tyler Scott right in the chest with what may have been the winning TD against Tulane and it was flat out DROPPED.

To be clear, I never disagreed that Prater would work in a scheme like that...I disagreed that he would work in the scheme that was installed for the team last year.

Highlight chasing, a la the final pass (which wouldn't have been a TD but was a great ball), completely discounts his inability to hit receivers throughout the rest of the game on much simpler plays. Truly, the offense in the Tulane game was highly ineffective less a phenomenal 35 yard run from Chuck and Montgomery having his usual between the tackle vision heroics (that many of us were wishing for throughout the season) and had nothing to do with Prater being in there.

Isolating drops, Prater was 10/23 for 102 yards and a very bad INT...passing in the offense we had installed last year (and in general) was not his forte and that is completely fine. There was a reason why 90% of his HS highlights were scrambles or fades, because they built an offense that worked for him there, unfortunately, College coaches tend to be hard headed about fitting players in their schemes, rather than the other way around, and trying to get a 1st year OC to do anything revolutionary was asking for failure...hell, he showed he didn't really have play-calling chops regardless.

This whole conversation likely will mean nothing, as there is a better version of what people think Prater is on the roster (Emory Jones) and a better version of what Prater's potential was coming into the program (Brady Drogosh). Without a drastic improvement over the summer that would be shocking to a lot of people both inside and outside the program, I would be very surprised if Prater plays more than very sparse downs at QB for Cincinnati again, and if he does, I'd be very surprised if our team in a position to be excited about for us fans.

(05-05-2023 01:29 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 01:13 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 12:42 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 11:58 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Thinking of Prater as kind of like the Steelers used to use Kordell Stewart or maybe Antwaan Randle El?

So Kordell was a full time QB and Randle El was a WR who would throw a random occasional pass...which are you suggesting. I'd also say that Kordell Stewart was an objectively bad QB who had a HOF running back taking 300+ carries a season. If we had Jerome Ford or Isaiah Pead back there, I would have been way more open with having Prater in last season.

I think Prater has the athleticism to make the move to WR, however, I have no idea of his hands, ability to learn a route tree, and take a hit (considering he is a bean pole still after 3 years), but I also think he would be far too one-dimensional as a QB to be truly effective in an outside zone scheme that relies on passing to hold the defensive backfield in order to isolate zone overloads for the front seven and to put DBs on islands in run support. If you allow a team to run zero against you because you have very little threat to hurt a team through the air, it drastically impacts the effectiveness of the offense overall.

Truth be told, Prater could be a damn effective QB in the right scheme...the inverted veer that was run at Auburn in the early '10s is somewhere he could really shine. Something that utilizes his athleticism first, keeps the defensive backfield's eyes in on the QB instead of their man, and makes a guy far less athletic than Prater make a play on him. Last year, anyone could see that the scheme we were running would never work for him with his limited skillset, and when the Tulane game came along, you saw why...they essentially dared us to pass over the top by running full zero coverage with a mix in of dash zones (blitzing out of zone coverage to send 6-7 out) making Prater make snap decisions/diagnose a play pre-snap or be incredibly accurate under pressure, both things anyone who has seen him play or practice knows aren't things he can do.

I just don't know if it's this scheme Satterfield runs, and I think there is a guy now on the roster who is a better fit in the Outside Zone out of a spread than him in Drogosh (not saying much, because they both have a lot of room to develop in both areas). Having seen more than a few games of both playing QB in HS, Drogosh is much, much further along than Prater was when he stepped foot on campus, and I'm not so sure that Prater has developed since he has been here.

Welcome to the party pal.

And for those who say he can't pass, I will remind him that he hit now NFL WR Tyler Scott right in the chest with what may have been the winning TD against Tulane and it was flat out DROPPED.

To be clear, I never disagreed that Prater would work in a scheme like that...I disagreed that he would work in the scheme that was installed for the team last year.

Highlight chasing, a la the final pass (which wouldn't have been a TD but was a great ball), completely discounts his inability to hit receivers throughout the rest of the game on much simpler plays. Truly, the offense in the Tulane game was highly ineffective less a phenomenal 35 yard run from Chuck and Montgomery having his usual between the tackle vision heroics (that many of us were wishing for throughout the season) and had nothing to do with Prater being in there.

Isolating drops, Prater was 10/23 for 102 yards and a very bad INT...passing in the offense we had installed last year (and in general) was not his forte and that is completely fine. There was a reason why 90% of his HS highlights were scrambles or fades, because they built an offense that worked for him there, unfortunately, College coaches tend to be hard headed about fitting players in their schemes, rather than the other way around, and trying to get a 1st year OC to do anything revolutionary was asking for failure...hell, he showed he didn't really have play-calling chops regardless.

This whole conversation likely will mean nothing, as there is a better version of what people think Prater is on the roster (Emory Jones) and a better version of what Prater's potential was coming into the program (Brady Drogosh). Without a drastic improvement over the summer that would be shocking to a lot of people both inside and outside the program, I would be very surprised if Prater plays more than very sparse downs at QB for Cincinnati again, and if he does, I'd be very surprised if our team in a position to be excited about for us fans.

Yet we scored 24 and were winning with six minutes left in the game.

But the offense was great when Bryant led it to 24 against Arkansas, 24 (offensive) against Tulsa, 21 against UCF, and 20 against Navy... right? We were also losing to USF when Bryant went out.

You know, I'm not so much a fan of Prater as much as I'm befuddled at the coddling of Bryant and the refusal to accept the facts about the past season. Bryant was average at best. Prater was put in there and ran plays designed for Bryant which never utilized his strengths.

I just don't think you're watching the same team if you thought Prater looked comparable to Ben at any point man

(05-05-2023 01:47 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 01:29 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 01:13 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 12:42 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 11:58 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Thinking of Prater as kind of like the Steelers used to use Kordell Stewart or maybe Antwaan Randle El?

So Kordell was a full time QB and Randle El was a WR who would throw a random occasional pass...which are you suggesting. I'd also say that Kordell Stewart was an objectively bad QB who had a HOF running back taking 300+ carries a season. If we had Jerome Ford or Isaiah Pead back there, I would have been way more open with having Prater in last season.

I think Prater has the athleticism to make the move to WR, however, I have no idea of his hands, ability to learn a route tree, and take a hit (considering he is a bean pole still after 3 years), but I also think he would be far too one-dimensional as a QB to be truly effective in an outside zone scheme that relies on passing to hold the defensive backfield in order to isolate zone overloads for the front seven and to put DBs on islands in run support. If you allow a team to run zero against you because you have very little threat to hurt a team through the air, it drastically impacts the effectiveness of the offense overall.

Truth be told, Prater could be a damn effective QB in the right scheme...the inverted veer that was run at Auburn in the early '10s is somewhere he could really shine. Something that utilizes his athleticism first, keeps the defensive backfield's eyes in on the QB instead of their man, and makes a guy far less athletic than Prater make a play on him. Last year, anyone could see that the scheme we were running would never work for him with his limited skillset, and when the Tulane game came along, you saw why...they essentially dared us to pass over the top by running full zero coverage with a mix in of dash zones (blitzing out of zone coverage to send 6-7 out) making Prater make snap decisions/diagnose a play pre-snap or be incredibly accurate under pressure, both things anyone who has seen him play or practice knows aren't things he can do.

I just don't know if it's this scheme Satterfield runs, and I think there is a guy now on the roster who is a better fit in the Outside Zone out of a spread than him in Drogosh (not saying much, because they both have a lot of room to develop in both areas). Having seen more than a few games of both playing QB in HS, Drogosh is much, much further along than Prater was when he stepped foot on campus, and I'm not so sure that Prater has developed since he has been here.

Welcome to the party pal.

And for those who say he can't pass, I will remind him that he hit now NFL WR Tyler Scott right in the chest with what may have been the winning TD against Tulane and it was flat out DROPPED.

To be clear, I never disagreed that Prater would work in a scheme like that...I disagreed that he would work in the scheme that was installed for the team last year.

Highlight chasing, a la the final pass (which wouldn't have been a TD but was a great ball), completely discounts his inability to hit receivers throughout the rest of the game on much simpler plays. Truly, the offense in the Tulane game was highly ineffective less a phenomenal 35 yard run from Chuck and Montgomery having his usual between the tackle vision heroics (that many of us were wishing for throughout the season) and had nothing to do with Prater being in there.

Isolating drops, Prater was 10/23 for 102 yards and a very bad INT...passing in the offense we had installed last year (and in general) was not his forte and that is completely fine. There was a reason why 90% of his HS highlights were scrambles or fades, because they built an offense that worked for him there, unfortunately, College coaches tend to be hard headed about fitting players in their schemes, rather than the other way around, and trying to get a 1st year OC to do anything revolutionary was asking for failure...hell, he showed he didn't really have play-calling chops regardless.

This whole conversation likely will mean nothing, as there is a better version of what people think Prater is on the roster (Emory Jones) and a better version of what Prater's potential was coming into the program (Brady Drogosh). Without a drastic improvement over the summer that would be shocking to a lot of people both inside and outside the program, I would be very surprised if Prater plays more than very sparse downs at QB for Cincinnati again, and if he does, I'd be very surprised if our team in a position to be excited about for us fans.

Yet we scored 24 and were winning with six minutes left in the game.

But the offense was great when Bryant led it to 24 against Arkansas, 24 (offensive) against Tulsa, 21 against UCF, and 20 against Navy... right? We were also losing to USF when Bryant went out.

You know, I'm not so much a fan of Prater as much as I'm befuddled at the coddling of Bryant and the refusal to accept the facts about the past season. Bryant was average at best. Prater was put in there and ran plays designed for Bryant which never utilized his strengths.

Our offense was ineffective in large stretches throughout the season. I don't think you realize that many of us weren't seeing rays of sunshine out there...we just were seeing that the option on the field was the best for the situation. Bryant was in no way a star, he performed his duties and was the best man in the room for the scheme they were playing (and that's the whole argument we had during the season...the offense wasn't built for Prater, it was built by Denbrock for a QB more in line with what Bryant offered, and carried on by Gino with very poor situational playcalling skill), that's all any of us were saying. I think you're conflating that with thinking many of us thought Ben was a world-beater, which he most certainly was not.

(05-05-2023 12:42 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(05-05-2023 11:58 AM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  Thinking of Prater as kind of like the Steelers used to use Kordell Stewart or maybe Antwaan Randle El?

So Kordell was a full time QB and Randle El was a WR who would throw a random occasional pass...which are you suggesting.

Kordell's first couple of NFL seasons be played a part time wide receiver who occasionlly ran sweeps and occasionally threw the ball out of those sweep plays. That's when he earned the nickname Slash (for QB/WR/RB).

I always thought he was much more effective in that role than when he later became the starting QB. Perhaps that is the future for Prater. But to be honest, I have no doubt the coaching staff has better idea of his abilities than I do.