(11-22-2021 06:01 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 05:46 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 05:03 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 04:30 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

Oh yeah he's been pretty explicit about his desire to not take transfers on multiple occasions

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That’s pretty disheartening.


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This is taken out of context. What Dane has stated is that his strategy is to find players that value our educational experience plus MBB and he want to BUILD the program around those players. He never stated that he did not want transfers.

What he has not done is use the strategy of the football staff to recruit Grad students who want our MBA program. This could be used to fill in the current gaps each year or backfill for players who transfer out.

I totally disagree with this post. I’ve been to lunches and have personally asked the question. Then why haven’t we offered one kid in 3 years that had more than one year of eligibility left?

(11-22-2021 04:27 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 04:22 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Andy V and David C are the only transfers IN that I recall as being impactful over the past decade. Either our coaches haven’t given full effort or not many find W&M appealing.

We’ve had lots of great players leave, of course.


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Milon

Adam Payton, Sean McCurdy, and Hawley Smith too. But the transfer portal changed everything in Shaver's last year. Comparing transfers now to anything prior might as well be comparing outside shooters now to pre 3-point line era.

(11-22-2021 09:24 AM)Tribal Wrote:  For comparison sake, Longwood’s roster is packed with transfers and they obliterated AU. Oh, and coach Aldrich has been there since 2018. Completely turned that program around.


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I can't believe you're saying we should have fired Shaver sooner.

(11-21-2021 08:33 AM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  The reason this team is so young is on the coaching staff. When other coaches are hired they realized the importance and have urgency in getting guys from the portal day 1.

Our staff decided to offer guys like Ayesa, Stone, and Herm year one instead of guys that could have possibly come in and sat for one year and be ready and more mature and had a couple years of eligibility.

Hamilton, Carroll, Barnes were added to the roster as one year guys but until this current staff puts more value on the transfer portal I see nothing but failure.

Fischer has said on a few occasions (lunches, Zoom calls) that he believes transfers are other teams problems moving on. Until he changes his mind on this W&M will be left behind .

The landscape of college basketball has changed and our staff needs to adjust accordingly.

Kelsey at CofC only had 3 players left when the dust settled when he took over and he has the program up and going already with a roster full of transfers.

I know we are disappointed with how things are going but why are we giving this staff such a hard pass when will be lucky to win 5 games this season?

I see the argument that Dane was put in a tough spot. How so? He took over a team with 2 of the best bigs in the CAA. The staff needed to show urgency knowing this day was coming. Instead of using the youth excuse, the staff should had been in that portal getting us older.

So if after next season we are still discussing how young we are and have had back to back 4-5 win seasons it’s time to move on for this staff. For all the “I want Shaver fire crowd “ his year 4 got us in a CAA final and Shaver took over a true dumpster fire.

w/r/t to the first CAA final, that was in year 5, on a team with no transfers. While his cupboard was less stocked, Shaver did have Adam Hess and Zeb Cope his first year. His second year was a significantly worse roster, just like Coach Fischer's. Shaver's first .500 or better season was when his first recruiting class were seniors, and the CAA final was the year after. If we're giving Coach Fischer that same leeway, next year would be the one that gets us back to the top/middle of the conference and the year after we need a magical run to the CAA finals.

Throwing this link here because it always makes my night better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73VQIE-CI_0

Edit: adding this because the tone above seems like I'm disagreeing completely. It's unreasonable to expect that the team would be significantly better than they are given the current makeup. It is reasonable to hold the coaching staff accountable for not taking advantage of a the transfer portal, even though it was brand new his first season. Regardless of whether it's how things were done in the past, current coaching staffs need to have a clear goal for how they approach the portal.

(11-22-2021 06:48 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(11-21-2021 08:33 AM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  The reason this team is so young is on the coaching staff. When other coaches are hired they realized the importance and have urgency in getting guys from the portal day 1.

Our staff decided to offer guys like Ayesa, Stone, and Herm year one instead of guys that could have possibly come in and sat for one year and be ready and more mature and had a couple years of eligibility.

Hamilton, Carroll, Barnes were added to the roster as one year guys but until this current staff puts more value on the transfer portal I see nothing but failure.

Fischer has said on a few occasions (lunches, Zoom calls) that he believes transfers are other teams problems moving on. Until he changes his mind on this W&M will be left behind .

The landscape of college basketball has changed and our staff needs to adjust accordingly.

Kelsey at CofC only had 3 players left when the dust settled when he took over and he has the program up and going already with a roster full of transfers.

I know we are disappointed with how things are going but why are we giving this staff such a hard pass when will be lucky to win 5 games this season?

I see the argument that Dane was put in a tough spot. How so? He took over a team with 2 of the best bigs in the CAA. The staff needed to show urgency knowing this day was coming. Instead of using the youth excuse, the staff should had been in that portal getting us older.

So if after next season we are still discussing how young we are and have had back to back 4-5 win seasons it’s time to move on for this staff. For all the “I want Shaver fire crowd “ his year 4 got us in a CAA final and Shaver took over a true dumpster fire.

w/r/t to the first CAA final, that was in year 5, on a team with no transfers. While his cupboard was less stocked, Shaver did have Adam Hess and Zeb Cope his first year. His second year was a significantly worse roster, just like Coach Fischer's. Shaver's first .500 or better season was when his first recruiting class were seniors, and the CAA final was the year after. If we're giving Coach Fischer that same leeway, next year would be the one that gets us back to the top/middle of the conference and the year after we need a magical run to the CAA finals.

Throwing this link here because it always makes my night better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73VQIE-CI_0

Back to my original point . The reason this roster is young is on the staff and college basketball has changed with the portal and teams can older in the off season. If this staff doesn’t have the needle moving in the other direction by the end of next year I just hope we don’t extend them.

Are we a good transfer destination?

(11-22-2021 07:26 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Are we a good transfer destination?

London has done a nice job of getting kids here from the football portal.

(11-22-2021 07:43 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:26 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Are we a good transfer destination?

London has done a nice job of getting kids here from the football portal.

I'm talking about basketball

(11-22-2021 06:31 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 04:27 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 04:22 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Andy V and David C are the only transfers IN that I recall as being impactful over the past decade. Either our coaches haven’t given full effort or not many find W&M appealing.

We’ve had lots of great players leave, of course.


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Milon

Adam Payton, Sean McCurdy, and Hawley Smith too. But the transfer portal changed everything in Shaver's last year. Comparing transfers now to anything prior might as well be comparing outside shooters now to pre 3-point line era.

None of those guys in the last decade, as I stated


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(11-22-2021 08:03 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:43 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:26 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Are we a good transfer destination?

London has done a nice job of getting kids here from the football portal.

I'm talking about basketball

I believe he means the school. The fact that London, within a few years, got numerous guys through our admissions process and contribute on the roster means transferring to W&M is possible. Dane and his staff either won’t or can’t get sophomores to transfer to W&M.

It seems like he’d rather develop TFr and he’s our coach so it is what it is. Maybe his method will pay off in a couple years.


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(11-22-2021 07:26 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Are we a good transfer destination?

Generally, no, unless the recruit's number one goal is playing time, in which case...we would be thrilled to heavily feature any serious talent right now.

So the kind of player who turns us down out of high school but would consider us later is usually going to be someone who thought they were headed for minutes at a better program but found themselves completely riding pine.

(11-23-2021 12:37 AM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:26 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Are we a good transfer destination?

Generally, no, unless the recruit's number one goal is playing time, in which case...we would be thrilled to heavily feature any serious talent right now.

So the kind of player who turns us down out of high school but would consider us later is usually going to be someone who thought they were headed for minutes at a better program but found themselves completely riding pine.

Matt Milon, David Cohn, and Andy VV weren't exactly riding pine at their schools, but are good examples. Seems like Shaver figured it out.

(11-23-2021 06:33 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(11-23-2021 12:37 AM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:26 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Are we a good transfer destination?

Generally, no, unless the recruit's number one goal is playing time, in which case...we would be thrilled to heavily feature any serious talent right now.

So the kind of player who turns us down out of high school but would consider us later is usually going to be someone who thought they were headed for minutes at a better program but found themselves completely riding pine.

Matt Milon, David Cohn, and Andy VV weren't exactly riding pine at their schools, but are good examples. Seems like Shaver figured it out.

AVV was sort of riding pine at Wisconsin. Him and Milon were definitely having issues with their roles (even though Milon was a real rotation player at BC).

I can't find what it was but I recall rumblings that Cohn was having trouble with his coach. We might have been one of his top choices coming out of HS? Honestly can't remember.

(11-22-2021 08:52 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 06:31 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 04:27 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 04:22 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Andy V and David C are the only transfers IN that I recall as being impactful over the past decade. Either our coaches haven’t given full effort or not many find W&M appealing.

We’ve had lots of great players leave, of course.


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Milon

Adam Payton, Sean McCurdy, and Hawley Smith too. But the transfer portal changed everything in Shaver's last year. Comparing transfers now to anything prior might as well be comparing outside shooters now to pre 3-point line era.

None of those guys in the last decade, as I stated


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Yeah, my point was more that transfers weren't really a thing until 3 years ago. Before that all players had to sit a year and there wasn't a list of players who wanted to transfer. If you got a transfer, great, but it was not a significant part of the team building process.

Cohn was on our short list initially and chose Colorado State. Fortunately for us that did not work out for him. He definitely made a significant impact as the Tribe point guard during his time with the program. The recruiting process and being "in" on the right players is difficult and likely has gotten even harder with so many kids now transferring in and out each year.

I still say that it is early. We may see some improvement between now and Feb/Mar.. I don't think with current staff and resources that we are a good basketball destination. Students come either for the well established coach, the great facilities, the culture, or the academics(and many don't care at all about the last one). W&M only has one of the 4 right now. But, like Coach Shaver and the rest of the staff were able to do, you can build something with consistency and good culture. We had that and our AD imploded it over one half of gut wrenching basketball against her old school.

If we give him time, Dane will be able to build his program here. In my opinion, being consistent, great culture, and great academics is what works at William and Mary. For those who have spent 40 years in the basketball wilderness, this is hard right now. But, none of this is surprising. It is going to take time. I see this as Dane's first real year and it will be the toughest due to the lack in number of juniors and seniors. I think there are a lot of programs that hope to get students for 3-4 years rather than 1. There is nothing wrong with that plan as long as you continue to pay attention for the rare "great fit" transfer.

(11-22-2021 06:13 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 06:01 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 05:46 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 05:03 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 04:30 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

Oh yeah he's been pretty explicit about his desire to not take transfers on multiple occasions

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That’s pretty disheartening.


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This is taken out of context. What Dane has stated is that his strategy is to find players that value our educational experience plus MBB and he want to BUILD the program around those players. He never stated that he did not want transfers.

What he has not done is use the strategy of the football staff to recruit Grad students who want our MBA program. This could be used to fill in the current gaps each year or backfill for players who transfer out.

I totally disagree with this post. I’ve been to lunches and have personally asked the question. Then why haven’t we offered one kid in 3 years that had more than one year of eligibility left?

Reading you statement more closely, it appears that a GRAD transfer is excluded in your discussion and you are only referring to a transfer with multiple years of eligibility. I would agree that Dane is not targeting his recruitment for players like Cohn but it also a false narrative to claim that Tony did either.

Do not know why you would "totally disagree" when i suggested that Dane should "recruit Grad students who want our MBA program"

Have a great Thanksgiving!

(11-22-2021 08:03 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:43 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:26 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Are we a good transfer destination?

London has done a nice job of getting kids here from the football portal.

I'm talking about basketball

Just curious why are we a good football destination for Grad transfer but not MBB? Seems odd

My post didn't differentiate between Grad vs. Undergrad, but I was really talking Undergrad. My take is that most hoops transfers take a step down in terms of competition, but a step up in terms of academic rigor. The hoop talent part isn't hard to achieve, but the academic part is tough unless the player originally wanted the academic rigor, but chose another school for better hoops.

(11-23-2021 11:00 AM)wmmii Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 08:03 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:43 PM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  

(11-22-2021 07:26 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Are we a good transfer destination?

London has done a nice job of getting kids here from the football portal.

I'm talking about basketball

Just curious why are we a good football destination for Grad transfer but not MBB? Seems odd

I think some of the answers are the number of scholarships that are availabe. Basketball has a max of 13 and football has 50+

(11-22-2021 06:48 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  ...Shaver's first .500 or better season was when his first recruiting class were seniors, and the CAA final was the year after. If we're giving Coach Fischer that same leeway, next year would be the one that gets us back to the top/middle of the conference and the year after we need a magical run to the CAA finals.

(11-23-2021 10:38 AM)TribePride91 Wrote:  ... If we give him time, Dane will be able to build his program here.

I'm not adverse to giving Fischer time to build his team and grow to be as (or more) successful than Shaver. I'm not pinging on the two posters above, I am just using their posts as the springboard to this next comment. What cracks me up is that many, many posters say "give Fischer time" ....even though many other posters have been quick to decry Shaver's overall losing record and point to his first (losing) years' records as good reasons to fire him after year 16. Logic would seem to indicate that you can't have it both ways. Either a coach is making good progress and the administration ignores early losing records (as was done with Shaver for his first 15 years) or you hold the new coach to a high standard right from the beginning and he better produce quickly or get fired. What should not happen is what did happen to Shaver ... all records count (even the ones previously ignored) and they can be used against you later in your career to fire you even if your most recent records were quite good.