A decade ago that was true, but Loyola's "Q" score is much higher now. Their game stories, during March Madness, were in all the Chicago sports sections. They are no longer just that small church school. People know who you are talking about when you say Loyola-Chicago, The Nun and the "fat center" made sure of that.

If the past few years hadn't happened for their program, no way in h---, are they invited in to the A-10.

(11-17-2021 10:57 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  

(11-17-2021 09:08 AM)billymac Wrote:  Loyola brought the Chicago market.

Could expand what you mean by this?

In the early 2010s round of expansion, that meant that a school like Rutgers had enough of a presence in New York to force the local cable companies to carry the Big 10 Network. (Whether that was true was different story -- but that was the logic.)

I'm not sure what it means in the early 2020s, especially for a conference like the A-10. Loyola doesn't really have Chicago to offer, it has the Loyola fan base to offer. Many of them are in Chicago, but in terms of moving ESPN+ subscriptions, they could just as easily be located in Montana or Williamsburg.

I think being in a big city still has advantages, even if "bringing the Chicago market" isn't the most accurate term anymore.

Easy/cheaper to travel to for other teams.

More recruits in the area.

Alumni of other A10 schools are in Chicago and may be excited to be able to see their team play in person.

Potential to bring in more casual fans.

(11-16-2021 05:01 PM)TribeinVB Wrote:  I don't think the A10 wants to talk to schools that have football. I think all the ones that have it are longtime members that they would not take again if they were applying now. A10 is all about basketball and wants all conference decisions to be make for basketball purposes only.

Whether a school has football or not is practically irrelevant to what schools the A10 will consider. Richmond has football. Davidson has football. Umass has football. The A10 only cares about how good a school's men's basketball program is. If W&M had been consistently investing in the basketball program for the past 20 years we could have potentially already been in the A10 for basketball. Just like our old conference mates UR, VCU, and Mason. But that hasn't happened so we continue to be left behind in a conference that makes less sense for W&M with every member defection.

W&M continues to be held back by the inability to invest in basketball and the mindset that the school is too good to try and compete with peer schools in athletics. It's frustrating.

(11-17-2021 10:57 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  

(11-17-2021 09:08 AM)billymac Wrote:  Loyola brought the Chicago market.

Could expand what you mean by this?

In the early 2010s round of expansion, that meant that a school like Rutgers had enough of a presence in New York to force the local cable companies to carry the Big 10 Network. (Whether that was true was different story -- but that was the logic.)

I'm not sure what it means in the early 2020s, especially for a conference like the A-10. Loyola doesn't really have Chicago to offer, it has the Loyola fan base to offer. Many of them are in Chicago, but in terms of moving ESPN+ subscriptions, they could just as easily be located in Montana or Williamsburg.

This is correct. Markets are irrelevant. Eyeballs are relevant. A school could be in a huge metro area but if no one watches their games it doesn't matter for broadcast deal purposes. The most important factor now is how good a team is. That draws eyeballs/fans.

(11-17-2021 12:00 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I think being in a big city still has advantages, even if "bringing the Chicago market" isn't the most accurate term anymore.

Easy/cheaper to travel to for other teams.

More recruits in the area.

Alumni of other A10 schools are in Chicago and may be excited to be able to see their team play in person.

Potential to bring in more casual fans.

These are good points.

(11-17-2021 12:09 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  

(11-17-2021 10:57 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  

(11-17-2021 09:08 AM)billymac Wrote:  Loyola brought the Chicago market.

Could expand what you mean by this?

In the early 2010s round of expansion, that meant that a school like Rutgers had enough of a presence in New York to force the local cable companies to carry the Big 10 Network. (Whether that was true was different story -- but that was the logic.)

I'm not sure what it means in the early 2020s, especially for a conference like the A-10. Loyola doesn't really have Chicago to offer, it has the Loyola fan base to offer. Many of them are in Chicago, but in terms of moving ESPN+ subscriptions, they could just as easily be located in Montana or Williamsburg.

This is correct. Markets are irrelevant. Eyeballs are relevant. A school could be in a huge metro area but if no one watches their games it doesn't matter for broadcast deal purposes. The most important factor now is how good a team is. That draws eyeballs/fans.

I think you're way off. UNCW is in a position similar to William and Mary when it comes to "moving up". I just commented on our board that CofC is a likely A10 candidate based on a metro area of right at 800k, consistent good basketball, good arena, while Wilmington is right at 300k. Williamsburg just doesn't sit in the large metro area either.

Just looking at the A10 expansion schools recently, they have all been schools in large metro areas. Davidson(Charlotte), VCU(Richmond), GMU(DC), Loyola Chicago.

I realize football drives the bus for a lot of schools although i'm not sure why. As an FCS school the ceiling is capped. As good as JMU was in FCS their titles barely registered on the national scene. I consider FCS football to pretty much be an enhancement of the college experience and a great way to keep the alum involved and donating. But i'm not sure the conference really matters if those are the metrics of FCS football. OTH, the ceiling for basketball seems much higher for a mid major school and a mid major conference.

If the CAA were smart they'd try to be an alternative to the A10 as a high level east coast basketball conference. Focus on basketball first, and provide CAA football as a landing spot for high level FCS football. There are a slew of mid major, east coast basketball schools that could make a great conference. The A10 dream just isn't a reality for most CAA schools, so we have to make the CAA a better basketaball conference.

(11-17-2021 02:56 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I consider FCS football to pretty much be an enhancement of the college experience and a great way to keep the alum involved and donating. But i'm not sure the conference really matters if those are the metrics of FCS football. OTH, the ceiling for basketball seems much higher for a mid major school and a mid major conference.

If the CAA were smart they'd try to be an alternative to the A10 as a high level east coast basketball conference. Focus on basketball first, and provide CAA football as a landing spot for high level FCS football. There are a slew of mid major, east coast basketball schools that could make a great conference. The A10 dream just isn't a reality for most CAA schools, so we have to make the CAA a better basketaball conference.

I'm picking up what you're putting down here. Which schools would be on your short list for the CAA to poach?

(11-17-2021 03:47 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  

(11-17-2021 02:56 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I consider FCS football to pretty much be an enhancement of the college experience and a great way to keep the alum involved and donating. But i'm not sure the conference really matters if those are the metrics of FCS football. OTH, the ceiling for basketball seems much higher for a mid major school and a mid major conference.

If the CAA were smart they'd try to be an alternative to the A10 as a high level east coast basketball conference. Focus on basketball first, and provide CAA football as a landing spot for high level FCS football. There are a slew of mid major, east coast basketball schools that could make a great conference. The A10 dream just isn't a reality for most CAA schools, so we have to make the CAA a better basketaball conference.

I'm picking up what you're putting down here. Which schools would be on your short list for the CAA to poach?

The N/S approach is the only way this can happen, and it also ends up being a better geographic setup than the A10 offers. I came up with this before and it was based on research finding the best schools in basketball, baseball and football. I'd love to see us add UNCG, but wasn't sure how to fit them into the equation as a non football school.

Full membership:

South - CofC, UNCW, Elon, William and Mary, Campbell(new, football), VMI(new, football), Wofford(new, football)

North - Drexel, Hofstra, NU, Towson, Delaware, Stony Brook(already CAA football), UMBC(non football).

CAA football

South - W&M, Elon, Richmond, Towson, Campbell(full football), VMI(full football), Wofford(full football)

North - Delaware, Albany, Stony Brook, Villanova, Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire

This is the best CAA scenario I could come up with for a N/S CAA division setup. It keeps football and basketball strong and brings in good baseball as well. Campbell, Wofford and VMI all step up to a stronger football conference, stay in a strong basketball conference, help with CAA baseball, and stay in a tight geographical area.

This would allow for a basketball conference schedule to include the top 3 teams from each division from the previous year, going home and home against the other division to improve RPI for a 10 school in conference schedule. Then the conference tournament could include the top 5 from each division, leaving the bottom two from each conference out of the tournament, giving another boost to the final rpi's before the NCAA tournament and incentive to finish top 5.

(11-18-2021 08:33 AM)82hawk Wrote:  

(11-17-2021 03:47 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  

(11-17-2021 02:56 PM)82hawk Wrote:  I consider FCS football to pretty much be an enhancement of the college experience and a great way to keep the alum involved and donating. But i'm not sure the conference really matters if those are the metrics of FCS football. OTH, the ceiling for basketball seems much higher for a mid major school and a mid major conference.

If the CAA were smart they'd try to be an alternative to the A10 as a high level east coast basketball conference. Focus on basketball first, and provide CAA football as a landing spot for high level FCS football. There are a slew of mid major, east coast basketball schools that could make a great conference. The A10 dream just isn't a reality for most CAA schools, so we have to make the CAA a better basketaball conference.

I'm picking up what you're putting down here. Which schools would be on your short list for the CAA to poach?

The N/S approach is the only way this can happen, and it also ends up being a better geographic setup than the A10 offers. I came up with this before and it was based on research finding the best schools in basketball, baseball and football. I'd love to see us add UNCG, but wasn't sure how to fit them into the equation as a non football schol.

Full membership:

South - CofC, UNCW, Elon, William and Mary, Campbell(new, football), VMI(new, football), Wofford(new, football)

North - Drexel, Hofstra, NU, Towson, Delaware, Stony Brook(already CAA football), UMBC(non football).

CAA football

South - W&M, Elon, Richmond, Towson, Campbell(full football), VMI(full football), Wofford(full football)

North - Delaware, Albany, Stony Brook, Villanova, Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire

This is the best CAA scenario I could come up with for a N/S CAA division setup. It keeps football and basketball strong and brings in good baseball as well. Campbell, Wofford and VMI all step up to a stronger football conference, stay in a strong basketball conference, help with CAA baseball, and stay in a tight geographical area.

This would allow for a basketball conference schedule to include the top 3 teams from each division from the previous year, going home and home against the other division to improve RPI for a 10 school in conference schedule. Then the conference tournament could include the top 5 from each division, leaving the bottom two from each conference out of the tournament, giving another boost to the final rpi's before the NCAA tournament and incentive to finish top 5.

I like it! The N/S split keeps travel costs to a minimum. I don't see how the A10's expanding out to Chicago is financially prudent. The league is spread too far and wide.

I also like the Southern part especially. The geography will save costs for sure.

I like that for basketball as well except UMBC. I would add Fairfield instead and it appears they are set and ready when asked.

I don’t like the split in football. It takes two of our biggest annual games, Delaware and Villanova, off an annual schedule.

I would like that for the CAA, I might prefer Monmouth/Howard instead of two of VMI/Wofford/Campbell.

Football split gets tricky for everyone, there's almost 3 clusters of schools, South, Mid Atlantic, and North. Any division splits the mid atlantic teams to some degree

(11-18-2021 08:33 AM)82hawk Wrote:  Full membership:

South - CofC, UNCW, Elon, William and Mary, Campbell(new, football), VMI(new, football), Wofford(new, football)

North - Drexel, Hofstra, NU, Towson, Delaware, Stony Brook(already CAA football), UMBC(non football).

CAA football

South - W&M, Elon, Richmond, Towson, Campbell(full football), VMI(full football), Wofford(full football)

North - Delaware, Albany, Stony Brook, Villanova, Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire

I like this league, very competitive and an immediate threat to draw multiple NCAAT bids. I think if it formed you would have several other schools banging on the door (Furman? Albany as full member? etc).

(11-18-2021 10:40 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I would like that for the CAA, I might prefer Monmouth/Howard instead of two of VMI/Wofford/Campbell.

Football split gets tricky for everyone, there's almost 3 clusters of schools, South, Mid Atlantic, and North. Any division splits the mid atlantic teams to some degree

I don't know enough about football to have a valid opinion on a N/S split. For full membership, the problem with Monmouth/Howard vs. VMI/Campbell/Wofford is you leave CofC and UNCW as huge outliers in the South. The additions I proposed were intended to make the South division an actual south division. If that isn't addressed, you'll probably see UNCW and CofC depart.

I seriously like the makeup of the schools in the CAA, and I think the conference could rise with the right setup. But there has got to be a serious move to shore up the southern part of the conference. Monmouth, Howard, etc. may replace Stony Brook or UMBC, but they can't be in addition to them.

(11-18-2021 08:33 AM)82hawk Wrote:  Full membership:

South - CofC, UNCW, Elon, William and Mary, Campbell(new, football), VMI(new, football), Wofford(new, football)

North - Drexel, Hofstra, NU, Towson, Delaware, Stony Brook(already CAA football), UMBC(non football).

CAA football

South - W&M, Elon, Richmond, Towson, Campbell(full football), VMI(full football), Wofford(full football)

North - Delaware, Albany, Stony Brook, Villanova, Rhode Island, Maine, New Hampshire

This looks good except for VMI and Campbell. IMO Furman is stronger in football and MBB than Campbell. ETSU is better in BOTH football and MBB than VMI.

No offense but I think there is an obvious answer and everyone on this thread is nuts. We need to leave the CAA and become king of the Patriot League. With JMU leaving I see no point in staying in the CAA. With the exception of Richmond in football we will have no in-state rivals and no academic peers. VCU, JMU, ODU, GMU - all gone.

Gonzaga is in a weak conference in MBB and is number one in the county. In men’s lacrosse, Loyola is in the Patriot league and has made 3 final four appearances the last 9 years, with one national title. We have never won a CAA tournament title in men’s basketball, so it is not as if the purported strength of the conference has done us any favors.

We have been to the playoffs in football three times since 2004 - a span of 17 years.

Time to accept where we stand, and head to a conference of schools that makes a lot more sense for who we are.

(11-20-2021 03:43 PM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  No offense but I think there is an obvious answer and everyone on this thread is nuts. We need to leave the CAA and become king of the Patriot League. With JMU leaving I see no point in staying in the CAA. With the exception of Richmond in football we will have no in-state rivals and no academic peers. VCU, JMU, ODU, GMU - all gone.

Gonzaga is in a weak conference in MBB and is number one in the county. In men’s lacrosse, Loyola is in the Patriot league and has made 3 final four appearances the last 9 years, with one national title. We have never won a CAA tournament title in men’s basketball, so it is not as if the purported strength of the conference has done us any favors.

We have been to the playoffs in football three times since 2004 - a span of 17 years.

Time to accept where we stand, and head to a conference of schools that makes a lot more sense for who we are.

You are correct for MBB the Patriot league is a path to the NCAA but we would need a much better OOC schedule where we are winning plus we would lose the natural rivalry games in MBB against CoC, NE, Hofstra, and not least of all Delaware.

On the football side this would be a HUGE negative for most of the fan base and create a massive amount of discontent IMO.

wmmii Wrote:  we would need a much better OOC schedule where we are winning

I'm not following this part -- what do you mean?

Our MBB team would get smoked in the PL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(11-20-2021 08:00 PM)wmmii Wrote:  

(11-20-2021 03:43 PM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  No offense but I think there is an obvious answer and everyone on this thread is nuts. We need to leave the CAA and become king of the Patriot League. With JMU leaving I see no point in staying in the CAA. With the exception of Richmond in football we will have no in-state rivals and no academic peers. VCU, JMU, ODU, GMU - all gone.

Gonzaga is in a weak conference in MBB and is number one in the county. In men’s lacrosse, Loyola is in the Patriot league and has made 3 final four appearances the last 9 years, with one national title. We have never won a CAA tournament title in men’s basketball, so it is not as if the purported strength of the conference has done us any favors.

We have been to the playoffs in football three times since 2004 - a span of 17 years.

Time to accept where we stand, and head to a conference of schools that makes a lot more sense for who we are.

You are correct for MBB the Patriot league is a path to the NCAA but we would need a much better OOC schedule where we are winning plus we would lose the natural rivalry games in MBB against CoC, NE, Hofstra, and not least of all Delaware.

On the football side this would be a HUGE negative for most of the fan base and create a massive amount of discontent IMO.

I think winning league titles consistently and making the playoffs more often than once a decade (that is where we are now - 1 appearance in 11 years) would rapidly resolve any lingering unhappiness about not playing Elon, Delaware, UNH, Villanova, or frigging Towson. It isn’t like we travel well to those games. And if our rivals are CofC, Hofstra, and Northeastern - we are doing something very wrong.