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(03-09-2022 03:45 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:21 PM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 02:50 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 02:45 PM)MonGNARch Wrote:  We are paying him $28M this year. There's no way Heinicke sees the field unless Wentz (as history shows, may be likely) gets hurt...

I guess we'll see how Wentz fares. Hopefully he has a chip on his shoulder enough to beat philly twice this year

Considering they spent a majority of their cap on an injury-prone Wentz, it's hard to see them improving that porous offensive line. So even if Wentz is forced into the job, he won't be starting long.

The Washington OL is very good. It still battled through tons of injuries to be a well above average OL. Now, next year there is some concern bc they lose Scherff and Leno is a year older (but still should be ok).

Wentz is a little better than Heinicke but not enough to justify the cost. Doesn't really move the needle. They may still draft a QB, which means Heinicke is 3rd QB if they keep 3.

I would much rather the Commanders had taken a chance and drafted a QB.

They were 19th in adjusted line yards, had the 9th worst adjusted sack rate in the league and they were 17th in the league in getting to the 2nd level. They were good in power and avoiding RB stuffs, but the rest of the blocking statistics shows a middle of the road to bad offensive line.

And sure, some of that is due to the lack of weapons Washington had outside of McLaurin, McKissic and Gibson. But Heinicke was often running for his life well before a play could develop.

There were also 3rd in power and 6th in not getting stuffed. The only thing they really struggled at was in the open field. Adjusted sack rate is heavily influenced by the QB so its hard to directly pin that solely on the OL...Taylor took some really bad sacks trying to make plays.

PFF had the OL as ranked 6th in the NFL

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-...e-rankings

I will say they are probably a slightly better run blocking unit than pass blocking, but the OL was pretty dang good.

We will have to watch the draft to see how early they draft a QB. If they draft one early, I think it might be the end of Heinicke in Washington. They seem to love him but he (like always) has his back against the wall. Even if they do not draft a QB early (I kinda think they may look at Ridder or Strong in the 2nd), then he still may have to fight with Allen for the backup job again! It may depend on if they want to carry 3 QBs, but I think Heinicke carries value to the team as a backup QB.

(03-10-2022 09:17 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:45 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:21 PM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 02:50 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 02:45 PM)MonGNARch Wrote:  We are paying him $28M this year. There's no way Heinicke sees the field unless Wentz (as history shows, may be likely) gets hurt...

I guess we'll see how Wentz fares. Hopefully he has a chip on his shoulder enough to beat philly twice this year

Considering they spent a majority of their cap on an injury-prone Wentz, it's hard to see them improving that porous offensive line. So even if Wentz is forced into the job, he won't be starting long.

The Washington OL is very good. It still battled through tons of injuries to be a well above average OL. Now, next year there is some concern bc they lose Scherff and Leno is a year older (but still should be ok).

Wentz is a little better than Heinicke but not enough to justify the cost. Doesn't really move the needle. They may still draft a QB, which means Heinicke is 3rd QB if they keep 3.

I would much rather the Commanders had taken a chance and drafted a QB.

They were 19th in adjusted line yards, had the 9th worst adjusted sack rate in the league and they were 17th in the league in getting to the 2nd level. They were good in power and avoiding RB stuffs, but the rest of the blocking statistics shows a middle of the road to bad offensive line.

And sure, some of that is due to the lack of weapons Washington had outside of McLaurin, McKissic and Gibson. But Heinicke was often running for his life well before a play could develop.

There were also 3rd in power and 6th in not getting stuffed. The only thing they really struggled at was in the open field. Adjusted sack rate is heavily influenced by the QB so its hard to directly pin that solely on the OL...Taylor took some really bad sacks trying to make plays.

PFF had the OL as ranked 6th in the NFL

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-...e-rankings

I will say they are probably a slightly better run blocking unit than pass blocking, but the OL was pretty dang good.

How do you explain that adjusted line yards stat while calling them pretty dang good? A top 6 unit should be influencing yards more than that.

(03-10-2022 09:24 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:17 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:45 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:21 PM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 02:50 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Considering they spent a majority of their cap on an injury-prone Wentz, it's hard to see them improving that porous offensive line. So even if Wentz is forced into the job, he won't be starting long.

The Washington OL is very good. It still battled through tons of injuries to be a well above average OL. Now, next year there is some concern bc they lose Scherff and Leno is a year older (but still should be ok).

Wentz is a little better than Heinicke but not enough to justify the cost. Doesn't really move the needle. They may still draft a QB, which means Heinicke is 3rd QB if they keep 3.

I would much rather the Commanders had taken a chance and drafted a QB.

They were 19th in adjusted line yards, had the 9th worst adjusted sack rate in the league and they were 17th in the league in getting to the 2nd level. They were good in power and avoiding RB stuffs, but the rest of the blocking statistics shows a middle of the road to bad offensive line.

And sure, some of that is due to the lack of weapons Washington had outside of McLaurin, McKissic and Gibson. But Heinicke was often running for his life well before a play could develop.

There were also 3rd in power and 6th in not getting stuffed. The only thing they really struggled at was in the open field. Adjusted sack rate is heavily influenced by the QB so its hard to directly pin that solely on the OL...Taylor took some really bad sacks trying to make plays.

PFF had the OL as ranked 6th in the NFL

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-...e-rankings

I will say they are probably a slightly better run blocking unit than pass blocking, but the OL was pretty dang good.

How do you explain that adjusted line yards stat while calling them pretty dang good? A top 6 unit should be influencing yards more than that.

Adjusted line yards attempts to separate the ability of the RB and the OL but it doesn't really do it. If a RB loses yards, the OL gets hit on Adj line yards even if it was the RBs fault. If I look and see a RB that is rated highly and the ADJ line yards are low, then maybe we need to look at the OL. I wouldn't say to totally ignore it but Was is slightly below average in that metric and rated very highly in many other metrics.

For example, Gibson ranked rather poorly this past year. He is still adjusting from the position change from WR to RB and still has not mastered the RB position (IMO). I would say the run game issues were more related to Gibson (and defenses that were able to crowd the box without the threat of getting beat deep).

(03-10-2022 09:41 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:24 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:17 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:45 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:21 PM)Stat Geek Wrote:  The Washington OL is very good. It still battled through tons of injuries to be a well above average OL. Now, next year there is some concern bc they lose Scherff and Leno is a year older (but still should be ok).

Wentz is a little better than Heinicke but not enough to justify the cost. Doesn't really move the needle. They may still draft a QB, which means Heinicke is 3rd QB if they keep 3.

I would much rather the Commanders had taken a chance and drafted a QB.

They were 19th in adjusted line yards, had the 9th worst adjusted sack rate in the league and they were 17th in the league in getting to the 2nd level. They were good in power and avoiding RB stuffs, but the rest of the blocking statistics shows a middle of the road to bad offensive line.

And sure, some of that is due to the lack of weapons Washington had outside of McLaurin, McKissic and Gibson. But Heinicke was often running for his life well before a play could develop.

There were also 3rd in power and 6th in not getting stuffed. The only thing they really struggled at was in the open field. Adjusted sack rate is heavily influenced by the QB so its hard to directly pin that solely on the OL...Taylor took some really bad sacks trying to make plays.

PFF had the OL as ranked 6th in the NFL

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-...e-rankings

I will say they are probably a slightly better run blocking unit than pass blocking, but the OL was pretty dang good.

How do you explain that adjusted line yards stat while calling them pretty dang good? A top 6 unit should be influencing yards more than that.

Adjusted line yards attempts to separate the ability of the RB and the OL but it doesn't really do it. If a RB loses yards, the OL gets hit on Adj line yards even if it was the RBs fault. If I look and see a RB that is rated highly and the ADJ line yards are low, then maybe we need to look at the OL. I wouldn't say to totally ignore it but Was is slightly below average in that metric and rated very highly in many other metrics.

For example, Gibson ranked rather poorly this past year. He is still adjusting from the position change from WR to RB and still has not mastered the RB position (IMO). I would say the run game issues were more related to Gibson (and defenses that were able to crowd the box without the threat of getting beat deep).

The only metrics I saw that they were rated highly in was power and stuff rate. They were mediocre to bad in almost every other category. But perhaps I’m missing something since I’m on Football Outsiders and don’t have a PFF account.

If Heinicke wasn’t as mobile as he is, they’d rate even worse giving up even more sacks, hurting them in pretty much every category. Yes, he had some bad sacks because he was trying to make plays. But with their lack of weapons, most NFL QBs would be toast with that line. And next year should be worse with the loss of Scherff.

(03-10-2022 10:02 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:41 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:24 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:17 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:45 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  They were 19th in adjusted line yards, had the 9th worst adjusted sack rate in the league and they were 17th in the league in getting to the 2nd level. They were good in power and avoiding RB stuffs, but the rest of the blocking statistics shows a middle of the road to bad offensive line.

And sure, some of that is due to the lack of weapons Washington had outside of McLaurin, McKissic and Gibson. But Heinicke was often running for his life well before a play could develop.

There were also 3rd in power and 6th in not getting stuffed. The only thing they really struggled at was in the open field. Adjusted sack rate is heavily influenced by the QB so its hard to directly pin that solely on the OL...Taylor took some really bad sacks trying to make plays.

PFF had the OL as ranked 6th in the NFL

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-...e-rankings

I will say they are probably a slightly better run blocking unit than pass blocking, but the OL was pretty dang good.

How do you explain that adjusted line yards stat while calling them pretty dang good? A top 6 unit should be influencing yards more than that.

Adjusted line yards attempts to separate the ability of the RB and the OL but it doesn't really do it. If a RB loses yards, the OL gets hit on Adj line yards even if it was the RBs fault. If I look and see a RB that is rated highly and the ADJ line yards are low, then maybe we need to look at the OL. I wouldn't say to totally ignore it but Was is slightly below average in that metric and rated very highly in many other metrics.

For example, Gibson ranked rather poorly this past year. He is still adjusting from the position change from WR to RB and still has not mastered the RB position (IMO). I would say the run game issues were more related to Gibson (and defenses that were able to crowd the box without the threat of getting beat deep).

The only metrics I saw that they were rated highly in was power and stuff rate. They were mediocre to bad in almost every other category. But perhaps I’m missing something since I’m on Football Outsiders and don’t have a PFF account.

If Heinicke wasn’t as mobile as he is, they’d rate even worse giving up even more sacks, hurting them in pretty much every category. Yes, he had some bad sacks because he was trying to make plays. But with their lack of weapons, most NFL QBs would be toast with that line. And next year should be worse with the loss of Scherff.

You're not wrong. Anybody that watched the games last season - especially later in the year - and would call that a Top 6 offensive line is misguided. They were certainly better before all of the injuries, but that would be true for any team. Taylor used his legs to avoid numerous quick sacks last season. He also ducked under a few pass rushers to escape them as well. There is a reason that the team was throwing so many quick 5-yard passes and it wasn't all about Taylor's arm strength either. Five yards gained is better than 10 yards lost.

(03-10-2022 10:02 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:41 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:24 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:17 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  

(03-09-2022 03:45 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  They were 19th in adjusted line yards, had the 9th worst adjusted sack rate in the league and they were 17th in the league in getting to the 2nd level. They were good in power and avoiding RB stuffs, but the rest of the blocking statistics shows a middle of the road to bad offensive line.

And sure, some of that is due to the lack of weapons Washington had outside of McLaurin, McKissic and Gibson. But Heinicke was often running for his life well before a play could develop.

There were also 3rd in power and 6th in not getting stuffed. The only thing they really struggled at was in the open field. Adjusted sack rate is heavily influenced by the QB so its hard to directly pin that solely on the OL...Taylor took some really bad sacks trying to make plays.

PFF had the OL as ranked 6th in the NFL

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-...e-rankings

I will say they are probably a slightly better run blocking unit than pass blocking, but the OL was pretty dang good.

How do you explain that adjusted line yards stat while calling them pretty dang good? A top 6 unit should be influencing yards more than that.

Adjusted line yards attempts to separate the ability of the RB and the OL but it doesn't really do it. If a RB loses yards, the OL gets hit on Adj line yards even if it was the RBs fault. If I look and see a RB that is rated highly and the ADJ line yards are low, then maybe we need to look at the OL. I wouldn't say to totally ignore it but Was is slightly below average in that metric and rated very highly in many other metrics.

For example, Gibson ranked rather poorly this past year. He is still adjusting from the position change from WR to RB and still has not mastered the RB position (IMO). I would say the run game issues were more related to Gibson (and defenses that were able to crowd the box without the threat of getting beat deep).

The only metrics I saw that they were rated highly in was power and stuff rate. They were mediocre to bad in almost every other category. But perhaps I’m missing something since I’m on Football Outsiders and don’t have a PFF account.

If Heinicke wasn’t as mobile as he is, they’d rate even worse giving up even more sacks, hurting them in pretty much every category. Yes, he had some bad sacks because he was trying to make plays. But with their lack of weapons, most NFL QBs would be toast with that line. And next year should be worse with the loss of Scherff.

Heincke was the 4th slowest in time to throw this year meaning, on average, the line held up/he scrambled enough to get the ball out slower than all but 3 QBs this year. I would def say at times it was because of his scrambling ability and at times, he just held the ball way too long trying to make a play. The line held up in the passing game. Here is the line from the PFF:

Washington’s offense should have been far better than it was this season given the platform the team was getting from its offensive line. There was no weak link on the unit, especially in pass protection, and even the players who replaced injured starters acquitted themselves well.

I want Heinicke to succeed as much as anyone and I lay some blame on the injuries at TE and WR as well. Hes not the level of QB that can win with important pieces missing. But Heinicke was at fault for the offense as well, he needs to process the game faster and get rid of the ball, work on his accuracy, and cut out the turnover worthy plays. People see a sack and automatically want to blame the OL but many sacks on Taylor. Which is somewhat to be expected since this is his first real game action.

The O line was horrible. I trust my lying eyes.

On a positive note, Kyle Allen was non tendered so one less player to compete with. Now, it will be interested to see how the draft goes.

More than confident that TH has a roster spot as long as Scott Turner is the OC. Now if his salary was, say, North of $5M it may be different but his contract is a bargain.

(03-10-2022 12:56 PM)VB Monarch Wrote:  The O line was horrible. I trust my lying eyes.

LOL. Your eyes weren't lying to you VB. A lot of 'stats' can be rationalized about 10 different ways these days to make them mean whatever a person wants them to mean.

Not to piss in any cheerios but was Heinicke good last year? Lots of blame going around regarding the oline, running back, talent around him but if you were an objective fan of the team would you be cool with running it back with upgrades and him as your QB? If you were the GM would you stake your job to Taylor Heinicke starting 30+ straight games for you? The sentiment I’ve seen is overwhelmingly no at least on WFT message boards and on Twitter. I think that’s borne out by them trading for Wentz in early March.

Starting QBs in the NFL get all of the credit and all of the blame. Fanbases are unfairly tough on them. I hope he wins the back up job and is ready to show out when Wentz goes down.

(03-10-2022 09:09 PM)Old Dom Swag Wrote:  Not to piss in any cheerios but was Heinicke good last year? Lots of blame going around regarding the oline, running back, talent around him but if you were an objective fan of the team would you be cool with running it back with upgrades and him as your QB? If you were the GM would you stake your job to Taylor Heinicke starting 30+ straight games for you? The sentiment I’ve seen is overwhelmingly no at least on WFT message boards and on Twitter. I think that’s borne out by them trading for Wentz in early March.

Starting QBs in the NFL get all of the credit and all of the blame. Fanbases are unfairly tough on them. I hope he wins the back up job and is ready to show out when Wentz goes down.

Those are fair opinions regarding Heinicke. The other areas of the team you mentioned - offensive line, running back, etc. - are worthy of garnering their own opinions. Most of the recent comments here were primarily in reference to the play of the offensive line more than they were about Heinicke.

The t60wo Dallas games were hemlock for Heinicke, and the line absolutely gave him no help in either. When TH had time to make reads and throw, he was pretty effective. Against Dallas, he was getting curb-stomped for 60 minutes.

(03-12-2022 03:19 AM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  The t60wo Dallas games were hemlock for Heinicke, and the line absolutely gave him no help in either. When TH had time to make reads and throw, he was pretty effective. Against Dallas, he was getting curb-stomped for 60 minutes.

And it wasn't happening because he was holding onto the ball too long either. He was in pure survival mode in both of those games.

so y'all think it's too soon to order this?

(03-10-2022 09:20 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  We will have to watch the draft to see how early they draft a QB. If they draft one early, I think it might be the end of Heinicke in Washington. They seem to love him but he (like always) has his back against the wall. Even if they do not draft a QB early (I kinda think they may look at Ridder or Strong in the 2nd), then he still may have to fight with Allen for the backup job again! It may depend on if they want to carry 3 QBs, but I think Heinicke carries value to the team as a backup QB.

Think it might have been the Washington Post, can’t remember, anyway, the article I read said the team was looking at drafting the Liberty quarterback. This was about two weeks ago.

(03-13-2022 07:34 AM)mac Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:20 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  We will have to watch the draft to see how early they draft a QB. If they draft one early, I think it might be the end of Heinicke in Washington. They seem to love him but he (like always) has his back against the wall. Even if they do not draft a QB early (I kinda think they may look at Ridder or Strong in the 2nd), then he still may have to fight with Allen for the backup job again! It may depend on if they want to carry 3 QBs, but I think Heinicke carries value to the team as a backup QB.

Think it might have been the Washington Post, can’t remember, anyway, the article I read said the team was looking at drafting the Liberty quarterback. This was about two weeks ago.

That ship has sailed, Mac. Better for them to go MLB or WR, cause Liberty QB ain't gonna be there.

(03-13-2022 10:42 AM)bench jockey Wrote:  

(03-13-2022 07:34 AM)mac Wrote:  

(03-10-2022 09:20 AM)Stat Geek Wrote:  We will have to watch the draft to see how early they draft a QB. If they draft one early, I think it might be the end of Heinicke in Washington. They seem to love him but he (like always) has his back against the wall. Even if they do not draft a QB early (I kinda think they may look at Ridder or Strong in the 2nd), then he still may have to fight with Allen for the backup job again! It may depend on if they want to carry 3 QBs, but I think Heinicke carries value to the team as a backup QB.

Think it might have been the Washington Post, can’t remember, anyway, the article I read said the team was looking at drafting the Liberty quarterback. This was about two weeks ago.

That ship has sailed, Mac. Better for them to go MLB or WR, cause Liberty QB ain't gonna be there.

Ok. I don’t even follow all this, just stumbled into some article somewhere about how desperate Washington was to get another quarterback.

Regardless of how this all works out for Heinicke, I'm grateful to him for the feel-good stories and excitement that his football career has delivered through the years. Hoping he can stick as backup this season