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I would say the jury is still out on how Sweden performed. Yes, their death rate is high now...but, they took the hit early and now have minimal deaths the last three months. I personally feel they've done it the right way. Lock downs caused so many other issues with health and economy. Living through it smartly and protecting the elderly is basically what we're doing now anyway...just took a two month lock down in the middle with little long term positive effect.

(10-11-2020 05:37 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  I would say the jury is still out on how Sweden performed. Yes, their death rate is high now...but, they took the hit early and now have minimal deaths the last three months. I personally feel they've done it the right way. Lock downs caused so many other issues with health and economy. Living through it smartly and protecting the elderly is basically what we're doing now anyway...just took a two month lock down in the middle with little long term positive effect.

Sweden actually could have done a much better job of protecting their nursing homes early on. That is where many of their deaths came from, and from what I've read seems to be what the country has learned should there be a next time.

But all in all, Sweden looked at the science and avoided much of the political nonsense. it took some guts to do so.

IMO, Sweden did what was best in regards to the long run. They new short term there would be some negatives. Granted they did take a big risk since we didn’t have much data on the virus.

Jury is still out but it’s looking more and more like a normal virus IMO.

Only difference I see between this and a regular virus is no one in the world had any immunities built up towards it so it spread like wild fire. Normally the elderly have been exposed to the normal viruses all throughout their lives so I think this is probably why they unfortunately are the ones so negatively effected. They were the ones we needed to protect the most and we failed miserably especially in regards to nursing homes here in the U.S. and in Sweden. (Note: I’m not a doctor and have not read this anywhere. Just my observations so don’t go around spouting this)

So, either wait for a vaccine or go about your life why still recognizing others may have different views than you and respect that in public for the time being (Ex. Mask indoors in public).

But boy did we and the rest of the world kill the economy and in the meantime’s peoples livelihood.

The WHO doctor noted lockdowns will have directly been the cause for almost doubling the worlds poverty population and more than doubling child malnutrition by 2021. What a joke! Those are two of the most pressing issues in the world with viable solutions unlike cough cough let’s just all of a sudden flip a switch and be GREEN!

Lastly, these so called health experts flip flopping back and forth on (mask, airborne or not, lockdowns, how much space does it travel, etc.) can F off. Science doesn’t change. Another word overused. These are doctors and scientist opinions and they differed greatly since there wasn’t and still isn’t enough data. How one side gets the final say in the MSM I have no idea. Thank you to 12,000 health experts and the 3 authors from Harvard, Oxford, and Stanford for the petition that was written!

The MSM and politicians that politicized this can F off.

Those who took away others freedoms can F off.

Yeah one side of the aisle puts on one hell of a great act caring about ALL people not only in our country but also the world.

I apologize for getting political but I think the vast majority agreed with a lockdown for month or two to help healthcare systems and get more data.

Everything since has been extremely political.

Done with ranting. Pack the Nip!

(10-11-2020 05:37 PM)bcat1997 Wrote:  I would say the jury is still out on how Sweden performed. Yes, their death rate is high now...but, they took the hit early and now have minimal deaths the last three months. I personally feel they've done it the right way. Lock downs caused so many other issues with health and economy. Living through it smartly and protecting the elderly is basically what we're doing now anyway...just took a two month lock down in the middle with little long term positive effect.

They've consistently had about a 10x higher death rate than their two neighboring countries and currently have about a 5x more cases than either of them. So they are still doing worse despite taking an early hit.

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(10-11-2020 06:43 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  IMO, Sweden did what was best in regards to the long run. They new short term there would be some negatives. Granted they did take a big risk since we didn’t have much data on the virus.

Jury is still out but it’s looking more and more like a normal virus IMO.

Only difference I see between this and a regular virus is no one in the world had any immunities built up towards it so it spread like wild fire. Normally the elderly have been exposed to the normal viruses all throughout their lives so I think this is probably why they unfortunately are the ones so negatively effected. They were the ones we needed to protect the most and we failed miserably especially in regards to nursing homes here in the U.S. and in Sweden. (Note: I’m not a doctor and have not read this anywhere. Just my observations so don’t go around spouting this)

So, either wait for a vaccine or go about your life why still recognizing others may have different views than you and respect that in public for the time being (Ex. Mask indoors in public).

But boy did we and the rest of the world kill the economy and in the meantime’s peoples livelihood.

The WHO doctor noted lockdowns will have directly been the cause for almost doubling the worlds poverty population and more than doubling child malnutrition by 2021. What a joke! Those are two of the most pressing issues in the world with viable solutions unlike cough cough let’s just all of a sudden flip a switch and be GREEN!

Lastly, these so called health experts flip flopping back and forth on (mask, airborne or not, lockdowns, how much space does it travel, etc.) can F off. Science doesn’t change. Another word overused. These are doctors and scientist opinions and they differed greatly since there wasn’t and still isn’t enough data. How one side gets the final say in the MSM I have no idea. Thank you to 12,000 health experts and the 3 authors from Harvard, Oxford, and Stanford for the petition that was written!

The MSM and politicians that politicized this can F off.

Those who took away others freedoms can F off.

Yeah one side of the aisle puts on one hell of a great act caring about ALL people not only in our country but also the world.

I apologize for getting political but I think the vast majority agreed with a lockdown for month or two to help healthcare systems and get more data.

Everything since has been extremely political.

Done with ranting. Pack the Nip!

This post is nonsense, but I find it most interesting that this thread went quiet when Trump was in the hospital.

Part of the reason Sweden's elderly death rate is so high is because they stayed open AND decided that if you were elderly you got palliative care only.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/de...in-sweden/

Simply put...they rationed care based on age.

People don't die from CV19, they can die with it. Besides that just a big global scam.

Coronavirus: WHO backflips on virus stance by condemning lockdowns

The World Health Organisation has backflipped on its original COVID-19 stance after calling for world leaders to stop locking down their countries and economies.

Dr. David Nabarro from the WHO appealed to world leaders yesterday, telling them to stop “using lockdowns as your primary control method” of the coronavirus.
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronaviru...7731c3da74

https://nypost.com/2020/10/11/who-warns-...amage/amp/

In case some want their preferred news choices. The WHO docs quotes are the same as the article posted just above.

My inputs/opinions can be so called “nonsense”. I’m fine if someone disagrees, but when I read what he said in regards to poverty and child malnutrition that got to me. The results of the lockdowns for the truly less fortunate were even worse than I thought they would be.

Sigh

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(10-11-2020 05:27 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  I've been in favor of reopening since about late may, but that does not in any way mean we should recklessly abandon all restrictions and just let it fly. Sweden has had one of the worst responses to the virus and their mortality and infection rates reflect it.

We should take cues from countries that have successfully reopened (of which there are many) and work from there. Instead it seems like we're going to continue back down the rabbit hole we went through in June because people are incapable of understanding the nuance of this spectrum.

To reiterate, being pro-reopening does not mean you should suddenly start downplaying the threat of the virus or precautionary measures or statements. Cases are rising once again and so are hospitalizations. I don't want to see a repeat of the summer.

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I’m curious just what exactly you suggest that we do. I’m guessing that the countries you mention that have “successfully” reopened are now seeing a resurgence in cases- as is most of Western Europe. I could be totally wrong, but it looks like you got to pay the piper sooner or later. You either face it on your own terms, or hide in the hidey hole like the little rabbit.

And to be clear, I am not downplaying the threat of the virus, it’s killing people. I am saying you do your best to Shelter those at risk both publicly and privately, And support that openly. But you have to let the others choose as they will. And that’s pretty much what is bearing out.

(10-12-2020 12:12 AM)Bearcatbdub Wrote:  

(10-11-2020 05:27 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  I've been in favor of reopening since about late may, but that does not in any way mean we should recklessly abandon all restrictions and just let it fly. Sweden has had one of the worst responses to the virus and their mortality and infection rates reflect it.

We should take cues from countries that have successfully reopened (of which there are many) and work from there. Instead it seems like we're going to continue back down the rabbit hole we went through in June because people are incapable of understanding the nuance of this spectrum.

To reiterate, being pro-reopening does not mean you should suddenly start downplaying the threat of the virus or precautionary measures or statements. Cases are rising once again and so are hospitalizations. I don't want to see a repeat of the summer.

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I’m curious just what exactly you suggest that we do. I’m guessing that the countries you mention that have “successfully” reopened are now seeing a resurgence in cases- as is most of Western Europe. I could be totally wrong, but it looks like you got to pay the piper sooner or later. You either face it on your own terms, or hide in the hidey hole like the little rabbit.

And to be clear, I am not downplaying the threat of the virus, it’s killing people. I am saying you do your best to Shelter those at risk both publicly and privately, And support that openly. But you have to let the others choose as they will. And that’s pretty much what is bearing out.

dub, this certainly appears to be the case. You can run, but you can't hide from it. I just wish there was some consistency in how data is reported/used. It seems that if you want to rail on a big/populous country you use gross numbers, and if you want to rail on a smaller populous you use rates. We have a lower fatality rate than Sweden, Finland, or the Netherlands and just above Norway. So using rates Sweden must be terrible and we're as good or better than those Nordic folk. Use gross numbers and we are monsters at >700 per day, but Sweden, Finland, and Norway are all currently less than 1 per day. (ourworldindata.org) Then there is the scale of everything. Is Sweden that much worse losing say 1.8 people per day on a rolling 7 day average on a bad week vs. a neighbor at 0.2 per day? I mean technically yes, but practically, I'd say with these small numbers they're in the same ball park. Honestly, it's really hard to say anything definitive yet since this story is still being told. Call me Pollyanna, but I do believe the lion's share of leadership are honestly doing their best and I don't envy them.

Do you ever notice that you only hear when someone tests positive?

Trump is about the only guy that we got reports on as he went through it and that was only because the MSM was rooting for him to die.

Where are the reports of the results of this WH "super spreader" event? Did anyone die... no? Did anyone even have to spend a couple of days in bed? Did anyone not feel anything at all???

They never seem to tell us any of that. All I've heard was Trump saying to not be afraid of covid19. Imagine that.

(10-12-2020 06:16 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Do you ever notice that you only hear when someone tests positive?

Trump is about the only guy that we got reports on as he went through it and that was only because the MSM was rooting for him to die.

Where are the reports of the results of this WH "super spreader" event? Did anyone die... no? Did anyone even have to spend a couple of days in bed? Did anyone not feel anything at all???

They never seem to tell us any of that. All I've heard was Trump saying to not be afraid of covid19. Imagine that.

My goodness.

Numerous people were reported to have tested negative. Mike Pence, for example. All of the Trump kids. Jared Kushner. Amy Coney Barrett. Bill Barr. Lindsey Graham refused to get tested. This stuff has been widely reported. Interestingly, you don't hear about Trump's negative tests because he and his medical team refuse to answer when he last tested negative before he got it or if he has test negative since.

I know you don't actually want answers to these remarkably silly questions that are easily found by googling for 2 minutes, but, the President was extremely sick. Chris Christie just spent nore than a week in the hospital. Mike Lee was reported to have been feeling terribly. Pretty much all the other big names have asked for privacy and have not reported how they are doing. That's why you haven't gotten your reports. That there might tell you something.

And LOL, yes, Trump said not to be afraid of it. Go with that.

Trump didn't shut down early enough or long enough so he's responsible for over 200,000 American deaths. He's a murderer.

Trump is responsible for a recession and high unemployment.

Dems want to have their cake and eat it too. Stricter shutdowns would have saved lives but cost jobs, less restrictions would have cost lives and saved jobs. But apparently Biden would've saved lives and kept the best economy in our country's history humming along without a hiccup. Keep drinking the kool-aid.

(10-12-2020 08:21 AM)levydl Wrote:  I know you don't actually want answers to these remarkably silly questions that are easily found by googling for 2 minutes, but, the President was extremely sick.

The President was so sick that his campaigning almost slowed down to Joe Biden's level.

Almost.

The main board was mostly free of politics for the first three weeks of the season. Sad that seems to have ended.

There's a political forum for continued political discussion. Hell, if it's COVID related feel free to take it to the OT board.

(10-12-2020 12:12 AM)Bearcatbdub Wrote:  I’m curious just what exactly you suggest that we do. I’m guessing that the countries you mention that have “successfully” reopened are now seeing a resurgence in cases- as is most of Western Europe. I could be totally wrong, but it looks like you got to pay the piper sooner or later. You either face it on your own terms, or hide in the hidey hole like the little rabbit.

And to be clear, I am not downplaying the threat of the virus, it’s killing people. I am saying you do your best to Shelter those at risk both publicly and privately, And support that openly. But you have to let the others choose as they will. And that’s pretty much what is bearing out.

I think avoiding this type of dichotomy is important. Reopening does not mean we have to take it on the chin. It doesn't mean we just accept thousands more deaths and continued spread of the virus.

Even if you don't want to use other countries as an example, look back on what points Americans seemingly got control of the virus. The first instance was in late May/Early June. We began reopening and ultimately saw sustained decreases in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. Then the bandaid came off, everyone kind of decided that the pandemic was over, and we spent the rest of the summer losing upwards of 100,000 people. That can't happen again.

So I think the bigger takeaway is that if we're going to continue opening schools, going to games, going to weddings, etc. it's important to maintain just basic levels of caution. I suppose that's more of a cultural item, however. Ultimately, I just wish people could understand the nuances of reopening without deciding that the virus is 1. a hoax or 2. not a threat.

(10-12-2020 10:17 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  The main board was mostly free of politics for the first three weeks of the season. Sad that seems to have ended.

There's a political forum for continued political discussion. Hell, if it's COVID related feel free to take it to the OT board.

This could probably be moved there anyways as it's long been the All Things Covid thread. But, also, the political forums are a trainwreck right now.

To the majority of Americans, the virus is not a threat. We are telling people that have little to no risk to hide for multiple years. They aren't going to do that. It's human nature.

We need to spend our efforts/resources protecting the people as risk. That's the most effective way, in my opinion. This massive blanket strategy was never going to work. The virus isn't dangerous enough to scare people into substitution.

Which gets us back to football. Attendance should be opened in a way that encourages social distancing. Limited capacity, hand sanitizer stations, masks when you leave your seat, or if you are not eating.

Encourage people who are old are sick or having underlying conditions to stay at home. You could try temperature screening, but since asymptomatic spread is anectodtally a thing, not sure it’s worth the bang for the buck.