(02-21-2020 11:23 AM)JMU08 Wrote:  Another thing is regarding attendance and how much it actually matters. The best seat of nearly any sporting event in the world is right on your couch. This isn't the 80s and 90s, technology, priorities, they are all different now, so is attendance. Even if you see attendance increase, it's mostly students that we already cashed in on with their student fees, so no profit there. You're going to still see mostly the same season ticket holders at games going forward no matter what happens. Growing season ticket holders is a long and difficult process. There is very little monetary gains by hiring any coach year 1. It's an investment that will hopefully grow over time, but has risk like any other investment.

In some regards, sure. Getting past a certain number of season/single-game tickets will be tough. However, I know people who have been going to games for 20 years that stopped this year. They put up with a lot and still kept coming. But this year was finally their breaking point (for several it was Coppin St). Those are the people that won't take a lot to get back. I'd say especially with the near arena, getting back to 3,500 on average isn't out of the question. In '14-15 we were at 3,416 avg...this year it's been 2,385. I agree that there's no one that will instantly get us to 5k+, but I think with a solid hire that can win a few games early will get those fans back lost over the past few years. In Harrisonburg, you really only need a 75% chance of winning your home games to get the excitement back and even just being in games against the top CAA teams at home.

I think JMU missed a prime opportunity at the end of last season to give the new coach a year to build momentum before opening the new arena. Nothing like having the worst season in the history of the program to kill any possible momentum before trying to fill 2k more seats in the arena. Either way, a decent coaching hire that has been a proven winner when added to the new arena will quickly get us back to 3,500. Have a solid record in non-conference play and then win a couple conference games and I think by the end of the season there could be some games over 4k. Harrisonburg and Rockingham county residents who were there 20 years ago are craving that same excitement...give them hope of getting back and they'll show up. We just can't pay bottom dollar again and hope to find a diamond in the rough.

and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

(02-21-2020 11:40 AM)jmufan2008 Wrote:  In some regards, sure. Getting past a certain number of season/single-game tickets will be tough. However, I know people who have been going to games for 20 years that stopped this year. They put up with a lot and still kept coming. But this year was finally their breaking point (for several it was Coppin St). Those are the people that won't take a lot to get back. I'd say especially with the near arena, getting back to 3,500 on average isn't out of the question. In '14-15 we were at 3,416 avg...this year it's been 2,385. I agree that there's no one that will instantly get us to 5k+, but I think with a solid hire that can win a few games early will get those fans back lost over the past few years. In Harrisonburg, you really only need a 75% chance of winning your home games to get the excitement back and even just being in games against the top CAA teams at home.

I think JMU missed a prime opportunity at the end of last season to give the new coach a year to build momentum before opening the new arena. Nothing like having the worst season in the history of the program to kill any possible momentum before trying to fill 2k more seats in the arena. Either way, a decent coaching hire that has been a proven winner when added to the new arena will quickly get us back to 3,500. Have a solid record in non-conference play and then win a couple conference games and I think by the end of the season there could be some games over 4k. Harrisonburg and Rockingham county residents who were there 20 years ago are craving that same excitement...give them hope of getting back and they'll show up. We just can't pay bottom dollar again and hope to find a diamond in the rough.

Nobody on here says go cheap. Nobody. So let's get past that part.

75% chance of winning to bring fans back? Where did you get this figure? I don't think this is how an AD should make a decision. And again, forget the attendance numbers, how much of those fans are students vs paid attendees?

I'm positive we are bleeding season ticket numbers, and that needs to stop, but gaining them back AND growing them won't happen quickly. I agree the new arena helps, but it also is a huge cost that needs to be mitigated. It's going to take time for any hire to make a significant impact in the financials.

This isn't 20 years ago. We can't use that as our model of expectations. It really is apples to oranges now. The digital era is murdering attendance everywhere, JMU is not the exception.

I want a great hire just like everyone else, I just don't think we can leisurely throw 1 million/year around and expect everything to work out without fully trying to understand that any hire needs to be viewed at as a long term investment with risk, not a quick fix.

Just for the record, didn't like the Rowe hire and didn't like that he coached this year, so we are probably more on the same page than you realize. I just don't like how some people are approaching the numbers game.

I know there are many haters about how he left (including me) but I really think this program needs a Mike Houston type hire. A proven winner who is also enthusiastic and a good communicator who can help bring out the best in the talent we have and can help reenergize our fan base.

Sent from my FRD-L14 using CSNbbs mobile app

(02-21-2020 11:53 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

Are we led by alpha or beta males? Very different approaches to decision making. We know two of our leaders are betas. The other is the rare state payroll campus alpha.

Things get interesting soon.

so is Carrier the alpha male decision maker we aspire to make this decision? different times, but for fun, on his watch:

hoops - he hired Capanelli, but he also hired thurston. He hired lefty, but he also fired lefty. He hired Sherm.

football - Joe P, Rip, & alex wood on his hiring resume.

when you are a hammer, sometimes you hit a nail, but sometimes you hit a baby.

basketball, 2 good decisions, 3 bad ones
football - 1 neutral, 1 good, 1 bad

8 decisions, got 3 right

pretty mixed results.

Carrier was alpha. I loved that man. He was not always right even though he may have thought otherwise.

If we have to go the upteen committe route do you think we are well down thzt road or we will get around to it eventually?

(02-21-2020 11:53 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

I get what you're saying PG, but stopped in my tracks at the words expert guidance and counsel. Looking from the outside, one would deduce there has been little actual informed "counsel" at all. The search firms keep things secret, but are little more than a matchmaking service and background checker. Our decision makers have a comfort zone process they go through and it just isn't working.

Seriously, when you've screwed up as many basketball hires as we have, you've got to analyze the common denominators in selection and completely eliminate them. The JMU "tie-ins", the lifelong assistants who have strong mentors-it just hasn't worked.

Insanity is doing the same thing over & over, yet expecting different results. Instead of having some car dealer/realtor from Harrisonburg or a technology guru on the search committee, how bout utilizing some more people who have/had actual experience in building a mid-major college basketball program to zero in on a candidate who could succeed here. They might also recognize, as outsiders, internal flaws or practices in our Athletic Dept that we are blind to (or unwilling to acknowledge) that are hindering program development.

A few thoughts:

The funds generated from ticket sales is really small picture. Even if we would sell 3000 tickets each mans game, that's still only $45K per game, about $675K per year. That revenue may be enough to keep the lights on. 3000 butts in seats is more about selling the brand, creates revenue from marketing.

Part of poor student attendance everywhere is how high schools aren't encouraging attendance at sporting events. Teachers aren't giving extra credit for attending a game, schools are charging students, little is being done to promote school pride.

So much love for Lefty that I don't understand at all, a handful of NIT's one NCAAT and 60% win record doesn't justify a good coach. Lefty was before my time but maybe the bar he set 25 years ago is set way too low for what JMU is today.

CK and JB aren't blind or dumb but maybe clueless with the business of modern day basketball business game.

There are lots of moving pieces with the MBB program. This is not a quick simple fix and I believe we are looking at the 5+ year plan. The good: 1) new arena/practice facility 2) a recruiting advantage. JMU, the university, is a place kids want to make home for 4 years. I could only come up with two....

Regardless of who is making the decision JMU has to take their shot. the time is right and the stars are aligned. Now is the time to be bold. Sure there is due diligence that goes into this decision but get outside your comfort zone- it is a desperate time for the hoops program and the window is open a crack with the new arena. Make a splash- the situation is screaming for that even if you open yourself up to scrutiny and criticism in the process. Even if there is significant risk of a big issue you take that shot now. Our program is irrelevant and has been for years - new arena good schedule name coach can be the defibulator that we need.

(02-21-2020 12:44 PM)olddawg Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 11:53 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

I get what you're saying PG, but stopped in my tracks at the words expert guidance and counsel. Looking from the outside, one would deduce there has been little actual informed "counsel" at all. The search firms keep things secret, but are little more than a matchmaking service and background checker. Our decision makers have a comfort zone process they go through and it just isn't working.

Seriously, when you've screwed up as many basketball hires as we have, you've got to analyze the common denominators in selection and completely eliminate them. The JMU "tie-ins", the lifelong assistants who have strong mentors-it just hasn't worked.

Insanity is doing the same thing over & over, yet expecting different results. Instead of having some car dealer/realtor from Harrisonburg or a technology guru on the search committee, how bout utilizing some more people who have/had actual experience in building a mid-major college basketball program to zero in on a candidate who could succeed here. They might also recognize, as outsiders, internal flaws or practices in our Athletic Dept that we are blind to (or unwilling to acknowledge) that are hindering program development.

This is where I think fresh blood in the AD department is critical. Bourne has been at JMU for what, 25 years? Bringing in someone fresh, with a new level of energy to make some waves in any business is rarely a bad thing.

"Jeff, you suck at hiring MBB coaches and running the basketball program, It's ok, most people can't be experts at everything. Meet Fred, he's now in charge of everything MBB, he reports directly to me"

(02-21-2020 01:42 PM)RamDawg Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 12:44 PM)olddawg Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 11:53 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

I get what you're saying PG, but stopped in my tracks at the words expert guidance and counsel. Looking from the outside, one would deduce there has been little actual informed "counsel" at all. The search firms keep things secret, but are little more than a matchmaking service and background checker. Our decision makers have a comfort zone process they go through and it just isn't working.

Seriously, when you've screwed up as many basketball hires as we have, you've got to analyze the common denominators in selection and completely eliminate them. The JMU "tie-ins", the lifelong assistants who have strong mentors-it just hasn't worked.

Insanity is doing the same thing over & over, yet expecting different results. Instead of having some car dealer/realtor from Harrisonburg or a technology guru on the search committee, how bout utilizing some more people who have/had actual experience in building a mid-major college basketball program to zero in on a candidate who could succeed here. They might also recognize, as outsiders, internal flaws or practices in our Athletic Dept that we are blind to (or unwilling to acknowledge) that are hindering program development.

This is where I think fresh blood in the AD department is critical. Bourne has been at JMU for what, 25 years? Bringing in someone fresh, with a new level of energy to make some waves in any business is rarely a bad thing.

"Jeff, you suck at hiring MBB coaches and running the basketball program, It's ok, most people can't be experts at everything. Meet Fred, he's now in charge of everything MBB, he reports directly to me"

The only alpha we have is the person that sucks at hiring basketball coaches. If Bourne sucks, does it matter? Does Bourne make any decision? Is Alger even aware of what is going on or understand basketball? King saved Rowe last year and King makes all campus decisions down to which trees the grounds dept can cut down, true story.

(02-21-2020 11:53 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

The concern is the decisions our "experts" have made in regards to Men's basketball.

Whatever approach our "experts" have used to get actual attendance at Men's games down to about 500 was the wrong approach.

There is nothing the JMU "experts" have done from the Men's basketball success standpoint (other than build a quality new arena) that I think a successful person or company would do.

You're talking winning strategy, and JMU Men's basketball in the same post?


Let's go find a bargain, because with lack of attendance we can't afford to pay more. Yeah, that makes sense. There is a name for that approach and related results in business - bankruptcy.

(02-21-2020 12:33 PM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  so is Carrier the alpha male decision maker we aspire to make this decision? different times, but for fun, on his watch:

hoops - he hired Capanelli, but he also hired thurston. He hired lefty, but he also fired lefty. He hired Sherm.

football - Joe P, Rip, & alex wood on his hiring resume.

when you are a hammer, sometimes you hit a nail, but sometimes you hit a baby.

basketball, 2 good decisions, 3 bad ones
football - 1 neutral, 1 good, 1 bad

8 decisions, got 3 right

pretty mixed results.

Alot of people seem to forget or ignore the fact the Linwood Rose was handpicked and groomed by Carrier to be his successor. How did that hire work out for athletics?

Whatever gets us to the point of moving forward ... but (in this guy's opinion) it all starts with separating from HCLR. Nothing else matters if that axe doesn't fall first... which seems to be no sooner than 15 days from today. Get your emails drafted folks.

(02-21-2020 03:02 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  Whatever gets us to the point of moving forward ... but (in this guy's opinion) it all starts with separating from HCLR. Nothing else matters if that axe doesn't fall first... which seems to be no sooner than 15 days from today. Get your emails drafted folks.

Ultimately 2 things matter.

1) Ending the Rowe error.

2) Selecting a solid coach.

The carrot is there for the administration - new facilities - higher ticket prices. Many hundreds of thousands in increased revenues. With one little caveat - you need a top of the CAA Program than matches the arena.

(02-21-2020 11:53 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

Where did anyone express the desire to hire quickly with no expert guidance? Are you going to tell me "good counsel" was used on the Rowe hire?

A lot may have went into the last hire even though the outcome was head scratching and has been a disaster. Maybe we did a lot of advanced work on candidates only to have the rug pulled out but it sure doesn’t look like that. No one is saying to rush- the favor that Lou Rowe has done for JMU is to make it abundantly clear from the start of the Caa schedule this year that he needs to be gone. I just hope and pray that a lot of the work has already been done and they are just letting Lou finish the season out which I disagreed with a few weeks back when they may have been able to salvage this season. It is what it is for 19 but the work for 20 and beyond should already being done in the background. If Jmu parts ways with Lou only to hire a consulting firm only to take their time identifying candidates they have missed an opportunity and compromised their program and who they will have a shot at in the process.

Plenty of qualified candidates (proven big winners) currently not coaching and plenty of work could have and should have been done already to gauge interest from those folks work towards interviews etc once the news becomes official.

(02-21-2020 01:55 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 01:42 PM)RamDawg Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 12:44 PM)olddawg Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 11:53 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

I get what you're saying PG, but stopped in my tracks at the words expert guidance and counsel. Looking from the outside, one would deduce there has been little actual informed "counsel" at all. The search firms keep things secret, but are little more than a matchmaking service and background checker. Our decision makers have a comfort zone process they go through and it just isn't working.

Seriously, when you've screwed up as many basketball hires as we have, you've got to analyze the common denominators in selection and completely eliminate them. The JMU "tie-ins", the lifelong assistants who have strong mentors-it just hasn't worked.

Insanity is doing the same thing over & over, yet expecting different results. Instead of having some car dealer/realtor from Harrisonburg or a technology guru on the search committee, how bout utilizing some more people who have/had actual experience in building a mid-major college basketball program to zero in on a candidate who could succeed here. They might also recognize, as outsiders, internal flaws or practices in our Athletic Dept that we are blind to (or unwilling to acknowledge) that are hindering program development.

This is where I think fresh blood in the AD department is critical. Bourne has been at JMU for what, 25 years? Bringing in someone fresh, with a new level of energy to make some waves in any business is rarely a bad thing.

"Jeff, you suck at hiring MBB coaches and running the basketball program, It's ok, most people can't be experts at everything. Meet Fred, he's now in charge of everything MBB, he reports directly to me"

The only alpha we have is the person that sucks at hiring basketball coaches. If Bourne sucks, does it matter? Does Bourne make any decision? Is Alger even aware of what is going on or understand basketball? King saved Rowe last year and King makes all campus decisions down to which trees the grounds dept can cut down, true story.

I can see Bourne taking his choice as the AD to his two bosses for their approval but I can't see King being a member of an interview/selection panel for any HC in the Athletic Department.

King is a fan like the rest of us but seems to be almost Dan Synderesque. Also why would I want him on the committee selecting the new coach if more than one person on this board has said he's brought about the toning down/downsizing of our pep band during games at the Convo. What a dam_ joke.

I sat across from King and Bourne at the W&M game when Withers' D was a sieve and several times hollered "where's the Defense". Both of them got up and left with 2 minutes to go......

(02-21-2020 10:06 PM)JMU1987UVA1998 Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 01:55 PM)Purplehazed Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 01:42 PM)RamDawg Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 12:44 PM)olddawg Wrote:  

(02-21-2020 11:53 AM)PGJMU2 Wrote:  and the hilarity continues......

lets make a quick decision, with no expert guidance and throw a lot of money at it

this is our winning strategy? ok

what person or business would ever take this approach? i want i want i want.

i want it now, i want to spend a lot on it, and i dont want any counsel. a fool and his money are soon parted

I get what you're saying PG, but stopped in my tracks at the words expert guidance and counsel. Looking from the outside, one would deduce there has been little actual informed "counsel" at all. The search firms keep things secret, but are little more than a matchmaking service and background checker. Our decision makers have a comfort zone process they go through and it just isn't working.

Seriously, when you've screwed up as many basketball hires as we have, you've got to analyze the common denominators in selection and completely eliminate them. The JMU "tie-ins", the lifelong assistants who have strong mentors-it just hasn't worked.

Insanity is doing the same thing over & over, yet expecting different results. Instead of having some car dealer/realtor from Harrisonburg or a technology guru on the search committee, how bout utilizing some more people who have/had actual experience in building a mid-major college basketball program to zero in on a candidate who could succeed here. They might also recognize, as outsiders, internal flaws or practices in our Athletic Dept that we are blind to (or unwilling to acknowledge) that are hindering program development.

This is where I think fresh blood in the AD department is critical. Bourne has been at JMU for what, 25 years? Bringing in someone fresh, with a new level of energy to make some waves in any business is rarely a bad thing.

"Jeff, you suck at hiring MBB coaches and running the basketball program, It's ok, most people can't be experts at everything. Meet Fred, he's now in charge of everything MBB, he reports directly to me"

The only alpha we have is the person that sucks at hiring basketball coaches. If Bourne sucks, does it matter? Does Bourne make any decision? Is Alger even aware of what is going on or understand basketball? King saved Rowe last year and King makes all campus decisions down to which trees the grounds dept can cut down, true story.

I can see Bourne taking his choice as the AD to his two bosses for their approval but I can't see King being a member of an interview/selection panel for any HC in the Athletic Department.

King is a fan like the rest of us but seems to be almost Dan Synderesque. Also why would I want him on the committee selecting the new coach if more than one person on this board has said he's brought about the toning down/downsizing of our pep band during games at the Convo. What a dam_ joke.

I sat across from King and Bourne at the W&M game when Withers' D was a sieve and several times hollered "where's the Defense". Both of them got up and left with 2 minutes to go......

Man, one thing I noticed at the Elon game... Elon was at the line for a big free throw at the front end of a one and one so one guy in the pep band goes and rides piggyback on another to run around and be distracting behind/above the basket and an usher ran over to make them stop and go back to their spots! Weakest BS I've ever seen. Between that, ushers blocking everyone in the front row's view for the last 30-60 seconds of every game regardless of the score, and ushers running off students filling in seats that always go unused I wonder how much things like that come from JMU and how much is RMC.

Seems like a good opportunity to share one of my favorite little student section clips for comparison. Not allowing the band to have fun and help out the atmosphere and just overall making the experience worse for the people that are still showing up is a good way to make it even harder to get fans back.