(05-10-2019 04:18 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 02:45 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 02:40 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 02:34 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  Next season is shaping up to be a huge opportunity for those who stayed. Barring injury or further defections, we could have a solid 7 man rotation. That's thin, but not that far from 2016-17. The front court should be strong and there could be some unusual line ups, but that is not always a minus.

GO TRIBE!

2016-17 had a real ten-man rotation--do you mean 2017-18?

In any event, there's a big difference between those teams and one where none of our three remaining guards have proven to be capable starters at this level.

Yes. Thanks. There are many more differences than the 1 which you pointed out. All teams are different. I was speaking only of doing well with a thin team. Nathan might actually be one of the best options vs a press, if this roster holds for next year.

Well, sure, you can do well with a thin team, but...the real salient point is that you have to have five good players, like we did in 2017-18. Right now Nate is the only one on the team who has ever averaged four points a game.

Well, no matter what we think, we're going to find out for certain this coming season.

I'm trying to whistle past the dumpster fire to find a half full glass somewhere in order to have some hope. Apparently that bothers your sensibilities for whatever reason. I'll leave it between you and your therapist.

(05-10-2019 04:24 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 04:18 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  Well, sure, you can do well with a thin team, but...the real salient point is that you have to have five good players, like we did in 2017-18. Right now Nate is the only one on the team who has ever averaged four points a game.

Well, no matter what we think, we're going to find out for certain this coming season.

I'm trying to whistle past the dumpster fire to find a half full glass somewhere in order to have some hope. Apparently that bothers your sensibilities for whatever reason. I'll leave it between you and your therapist.

I'm trying to do the same. I'm just looking further down the line than you, to a point where we can start regularly bringing in the caliber of players who just left. I think it's going to take years. The only thing to do after the arsonist burns down your house is to start building a new one, but it won't happen overnight and it won't happen from the ashes of what's left. I think a return to where we were just a few months ago is somewhere down the line. I just don't see the point in the inevitable disappointment of pretending it's happening anytime soon. Luke Loewe is not the savior of this program.

(05-10-2019 03:49 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 03:37 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 03:15 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 02:53 PM)2017WithPep Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 12:01 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  Owens leaving seems like a case of group think. It would appear that if he were to stay it would be an outstanding opportunity for him next year that he is not likely to duplicate anywhere else.

I don't know about that. Given the unmitigated disaster this seems to be turning into (or already is) I can't really blame anyone for heading out. How many players do we even have left at this point? It's also worth considering that the players have a better grasp of the situation on the ground (or in the locker room) than any of us.

It does seem a bit strange from an outside point of view, but I can see why a player might think that staying in this program suddenly turned into a risky decision. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he took his time thinking this decision through.

I once worked for a company that offered anyone in certain management positions a year's pay to leave as a way to reduce employees. There were 3 broad groups of responses:

1). Along with many others, I left for another job and everything turned out great with an extra year's pay in my pocket.

2). Many folks left with no idea of what was next because it was the cool thing to do and for most of them this was not good when the year's pay ran out.

3). Those uncool kids who stayed on and didn't take the year's pay, in many cases made the very best decisions.

Owens to my way of thinking, seems to fall in with my friends from category #2 because it's the thing to do, when it appears from the outside that #3 would showcase him and his talents in a way that he can not reasonably expect anywhere else.

To me Milon, Audige and Pierce fall in catagory 1 and Loewe in catagory 3. I wish them all the best, but my experience is that while all 3 positions can be great, #2 is by far the riskiest and #3 can be surprisingly good.

It's in my live and learn file.

I assume you don't know Owens and have never talked to him. Categorizing him as someone who just wants to leave because it's cool isn't fair. Owens has been very, very quiet about everything the entire time on social media. I will assume he is discussing this with his family and making a decision that's best for him. We will soon find out where he's going just like we did with Audige. What if he goes to Elon?

I'm not criticizing him, I assume he is doing what you said, but group think is a powerful ingredient and at this point staying is harder than leaving.

I'm assuming that you've never been through a situation like this and was trying to give you the benefit of my experience.

For further edification, try studying the Kennedy administration's Bay of Pigs decision process where some of the country's best and brightest feel victim to the very same thing while trying very hard to to the right thing. Often it is only clear in hindsight which at my age is easy and at a younger age is not as much.

Thanks, and appreciate your opinion. I was involved in something just like this. My coach retired, and we got a new coach who was very different. Several players quit and the team was a complete mess. The new coach never stayed to build it back up. It was actually a very similar situation with a long tenured coach who had absolute loyalty from the team, but the coach wasn't fired. Let's hope that Fischer does better.

(05-10-2019 05:56 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 04:24 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 04:18 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  Well, sure, you can do well with a thin team, but...the real salient point is that you have to have five good players, like we did in 2017-18. Right now Nate is the only one on the team who has ever averaged four points a game.

Well, no matter what we think, we're going to find out for certain this coming season.

I'm trying to whistle past the dumpster fire to find a half full glass somewhere in order to have some hope. Apparently that bothers your sensibilities for whatever reason. I'll leave it between you and your therapist.

I'm trying to do the same. I'm just looking further down the line than you, to a point where we can start regularly bringing in the caliber of players who just left. I think it's going to take years. The only thing to do after the arsonist burns down your house is to start building a new one, but it won't happen overnight and it won't happen from the ashes of what's left. I think a return to where we were just a few months ago is somewhere down the line. I just don't see the point in the inevitable disappointment of pretending it's happening anytime soon. Luke Loewe is not the savior of this program.

Okay I get that. I actually think that next year maybe better than the couple that follow it. Therefore I am trying to concentrate on it until it’s finished then move on to the next. Who knows what will happen then. Heck we don’t even know what the roster for next year looks like at this point, what type of offense or defense we’ll play.


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(05-10-2019 01:45 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 11:34 AM)billymac Wrote:  This one really stumps me. Why you would want to trade starters minutes and a chance to be one of the stars of the team, for a sit out year, and possibly star, to transfer to a parallel school, athletically, seems a bit strange.
I guess it speaks to being much closer to your parents (allowing them to see more games), but also could speak to more unrest inside the locker room.

Oh, well. Onward and upward...

Nate Atkins tweeted this. Mature outlook beyond his years.

When your coaching staff leaves, you have two choices.

1) Stay, lead, and take on the challenge of creating the change you want to see

2) Leave

I know I made the right choice.

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Seems a little unfair to compare the decision to leave or stay at an fcs football program to the same as a basketball player that can be at a place like North Carolina/UCF/Northwestern. Time will tell, but he is comparing apples and oranges in this scenario.

I think he's stating the two options and saying he chose to stay and be a leader. Of the guys who left, I have to think most, if not all, won't have a shot to play at a higher level than they would have had they stayed at W&M. I think they max out in, maybe, a lower level European league. That said, I can definitely see why they want a legitimate chance to play at a higher level and go dancing. Pierce and Audige will attend great academic schools and have zero chance at having an AD nuke their new programs.

LJ, if he doesn't play on scholarship elsewhere, was foolish for leaving. A free degree at W&M and a shot at being a 4 year starter is a wonderful scenario...even if his Tribe team only wins 38 games over that stretch.

Maybe not the same for our football and basketball players but close enough, in my opinion.

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(05-10-2019 08:07 PM)TribeFam321 Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 01:45 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 11:34 AM)billymac Wrote:  This one really stumps me. Why you would want to trade starters minutes and a chance to be one of the stars of the team, for a sit out year, and possibly star, to transfer to a parallel school, athletically, seems a bit strange.
I guess it speaks to being much closer to your parents (allowing them to see more games), but also could speak to more unrest inside the locker room.

Oh, well. Onward and upward...

Nate Atkins tweeted this. Mature outlook beyond his years.

When your coaching staff leaves, you have two choices.

1) Stay, lead, and take on the challenge of creating the change you want to see

2) Leave

I know I made the right choice.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Seems a little unfair to compare the decision to leave or stay at an fcs football program to the same as a basketball player that can be at a place like North Carolina/UCF/Northwestern. Time will tell, but he is comparing apples and oranges in this scenario.

I think you are underestimating the number of juniors and seniors on this FCS team (and others) that would be welcomed for a year or two at many FBS programs. Certainly not the percentage we are seeing from basketball but there are definitely some that would be desired. The difference is there is less of a transfer mindset in football than basketball. I can see it changing more and more though.

(05-10-2019 07:41 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 05:56 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  I'm trying to do the same. I'm just looking further down the line than you, to a point where we can start regularly bringing in the caliber of players who just left. I think it's going to take years. The only thing to do after the arsonist burns down your house is to start building a new one, but it won't happen overnight and it won't happen from the ashes of what's left. I think a return to where we were just a few months ago is somewhere down the line. I just don't see the point in the inevitable disappointment of pretending it's happening anytime soon. Luke Loewe is not the savior of this program.

Okay I get that. I actually think that next year maybe better than the couple that follow it. Therefore I am trying to concentrate on it until it’s finished then move on to the next. Who knows what will happen then. Heck we don’t even know what the roster for next year looks like at this point, what type of offense or defense we’ll play.


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Oh yeah, at this point next year definitely looks brighter than at least the following one. With no one else to take shots, Nate is headed for our scoring record if he stays healthy. Andy is a great talent. They will keep us respectable, even if we're in the bottom half of the conference. After that...I guess Quinn Blair is our best player? Unless players develop unusually well or Dane pulls in some seriously impactful players the next couple years, it's gonna be rough for a little while.

You seem to be treating the fact that we have, at most, seven scholarship players with no outstanding offers in mid-May as a wait-and-see. I'm treating it as seriously bearish for our prospects over the next few years. I don't think there are many hidden gems left for us to dig up at this point. It's true that only time will tell what kind of recruiter Dane is and whether he can bring in guys of the LJ and Chase caliber. I have a sinking inclination it's gonna wind up being more Nathan Manns and Matt Rums, guys that you can tell yourself are nice players but really don't make any other coach in the conference lose a wink of sleep.

(05-10-2019 04:24 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 04:18 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 02:45 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 02:40 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(05-10-2019 02:34 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  Next season is shaping up to be a huge opportunity for those who stayed. Barring injury or further defections, we could have a solid 7 man rotation. That's thin, but not that far from 2016-17. The front court should be strong and there could be some unusual line ups, but that is not always a minus.

GO TRIBE!

2016-17 had a real ten-man rotation--do you mean 2017-18?

In any event, there's a big difference between those teams and one where none of our three remaining guards have proven to be capable starters at this level.

Yes. Thanks. There are many more differences than the 1 which you pointed out. All teams are different. I was speaking only of doing well with a thin team. Nathan might actually be one of the best options vs a press, if this roster holds for next year.

Well, sure, you can do well with a thin team, but...the real salient point is that you have to have five good players, like we did in 2017-18. Right now Nate is the only one on the team who has ever averaged four points a game.

Well, no matter what we think, we're going to find out for certain this coming season.

I'm trying to whistle past the dumpster fire to find a half full glass somewhere in order to have some hope. Apparently that bothers your sensibilities for whatever reason. I'll leave it between you and your therapist.

I tried pouring my half full glass on the dumpster fire to put it out. It's still blazing

Hey, don't malign our guy, Nathan Mann. The Kansan won a CAA tourney game for us with a last second
three pointer against ODU that must have hit every part of the rim before going in! Mann was a tough cookie on the court and played with what the Italians call "brio" every moment.

Owens to UMBC

(05-12-2019 11:44 AM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  Owens to UMBC

That's a head scratcher. Guess LJ wanted to move closer to home. Best of luck to him.

(05-12-2019 11:54 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(05-12-2019 11:44 AM)Touchdown Green and Gold Wrote:  Owens to UMBC

That's a head scratcher. Guess LJ wanted to move closer to home. Best of luck to him.

Not a mystery at all. Shaver's connection to Odom so I bet Tony helped the process.

Great decision for LJ. Closer to home, nice stable program, and a real chance to make the NCAAT.

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Not a head scratcher to me. Odom is a hot name in coaching. Remember how they upset UVA two seasons ago? Of course Odom played college hoops for Shaver at Hampden-Sydney. Funny how connections work.

Brutal. Transferring from a public ivy to a glorified community college in a lesser conference with a coach that will likely be somewhere else before he even sees the court in 20-21. All to be three hours closer to home for family reasons. Yikes.

People make decisions about college based on many factors. I sure did - I’m sure the rest of you did too. We want to paint the story for these players in such black and white strokes, instead of acknowledging it’s a multi-factor situation for them as well. And in fact, much more so in many ways because of the basketball angle. I’m not going to judge any of them for the decisions they make. I’m also not going to declare that Tony being fired is the only reason they left (again, their lives are not so black and white) but at a minimum, it made it that much easier for them to consider a transition into a new environment. Best of luck to LJ and may he find more of what he’s looking for at his next stop. Sorry to see him go.


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Looks like it's partially for family reasons! Hope everything is okay!

https://twitter.com/ljowens_11/status/11...8782688258

(05-12-2019 10:53 AM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Hey, don't malign our guy, Nathan Mann. The Kansan won a CAA tourney game for us with a last second
three pointer against ODU that must have hit every part of the rim before going in! Mann was a tough cookie on the court and played with what the Italians call "brio" every moment.

Oh, I think we'll have a lot of "tough cookies" over the next 3-4 years. Plus a lot of "scrappers," "heady guys", "good kids" and "guys who have really improved since they got here." And we'll bring them against teams like that VCU bunch, who will have what we won't--top-level talents like Eric Maynor and Larry Sanders. And occasionally we'll squeak by them and it'll be a nice story to reminisce on years later, like we do now. But the cumulative effect of not having someone who can match up with the next versions of Will Thomas, Gary Neal, Kent Bazemore, Charles Jenkins, Grant Riller etc. is going to take its toll. If I'm wrong and we start bringing in these top-caliber guys quickly, feel free to call me a dope. I would love to be proven wrong.

(05-12-2019 01:00 PM)ColonelEbirt Wrote:  People make decisions about college based on many factors. I sure did - I’m sure the rest of you did too. We want to paint the story for these players in such black and white strokes, instead of acknowledging it’s a multi-factor situation for them as well. And in fact, much more so in many ways because of the basketball angle. I’m not going to judge any of them for the decisions they make. I’m also not going to declare that Tony being fired is the only reason they left (again, their lives are not so black and white) but at a minimum, it made it that much easier for them to consider a transition into a new environment. Best of luck to LJ and may he find more of what he’s looking for at his next stop. Sorry to see him go.


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Well said

Here’s an idea. Why not shift the perspective away from who’s gone and onto the guy running the show. The HC. I’ve seen two examples locally of coaches rebuilding teams from near scratch. Dan Monson and Jim Woolridge. It was exciting to watch the process, the ups and downs, the pure coaching. I expect Coach Dane sees this time spent at William and Mary as a springboard. It’s his coming out party!! Let’s see if he can pull it off. Let’s enjoy the ride.