(03-10-2019 03:34 PM)Tribester Wrote:  So sick of this BS year after year after year. Like I said before, if Shaver doesn’t win the whole damn thing next year with EVERYONE coming back, it will be time to move on

Move on to...the A+ coach you seem to think is available at the mid-major level and willing to live in Tricorner Hat Town, work with a low budget, get half his recruits denied by admissions, and deal with the fanbase who wanted the last guy fired after he led the conference in wins over the past six years? Find me that guy and I'll hire him. If not, I'll count my blessings we've got Tony.

We were good today. Delaware was better. It happens.

Now we get to turn our attention to a year where we'll have at least six championship-caliber players and really have the inside track on a title.

(03-10-2019 03:46 PM)tribalwarfare Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 03:43 PM)WMtribe17 Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 03:41 PM)tribalwarfare Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 03:37 PM)WMtribe17 Wrote:  Still think the 1st 10 minutes of the 2nd half on defense was terrible. Let Delaware keep running the same play over and over again to get open corner 3s. That got them confident and helped them to make the more difficult ones they took in the last 10 minutes of the 2nd half. I personally hate the 3-2, because most teams are going to burn you with corner 3s, especially Delaware who runs a 4 guard offense.

the corner 3 play was greatly aided by the moving screens set by the bigs every time... after all the tick-tack illegal screens on nate this year, it's a tough pill to swallow that not one of them was called

Yeah, the screeners definitely chicken winged on their screens to slow down our guys chasing the shooter. That being said, I think a 2-3 zone would have forced Delaware to do something different.

agree, but don't think we have enough practice/game time in the 2-3 to have used it there... the 3-2 would have only exacerbated the problem. guys were fighting off the screens as best they could to contest, but any greater attempt at it would have probably led to fouls anyways (like nate's)

I would like to think that every college bball team in the country at least practices the 2-3 some since it is a pretty standard zone. Not saying we would have to do it the rest of the game, but just to at least throw something different at Delaware and see if they can adjust.

Audige’s offense dipped some towards the end of the year but he is very capable of exploding like Horton did today ... also, next year, we will be adding Andy VV which will give us another 3 point sharpshooter and mismatch ... we coulda used some more of Matt Milon in the 2nd half before the late 3.

Agree that our intensity dipped in the 2nd half which is human nature given our lead, but even though they shot the lights out, no way we should have given up 54 points ... UD wanted it more in the 2nd half which is a shame because we played phenomenal offensive basketball in the first half ...

We just could never totally put it together this year ...


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A little flat to open the second half which allowed Delaware to hang around.

Only 34 points in the second half and the offense never flowed. Pierce was shooting 3-pointers instead of getting the ball at the FT line.

I don’t think Audige was anywhere close to 100%.

Rowley is effective as a spot-up shooter and tends to be a liability otherwise.

Delaware simply went off from the 3 in the second half. And did something else I never thought possible. I’m rooting for Hofstra tomorrow night.

Look at the bright side, at least it didn't happen in the final.

(03-10-2019 03:40 PM)Tribal Wrote:  - 1 on anything related to firing the only good coach we've had in my lifetime.

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I'll balance this out with a +1.

The only "good" coach we've had hasn't won 20 D-I games in a season (the only games that count - not non-scholly, D-III, etc.) but once in his W&M career (09-10). Better teams have their coaches hired away and teams as bad as us usually fire their coaches. All of this talk about he's "well-respected in the industry" pretty much means that he's a nice guy who has an okay program. If he were actually thought that highly of (as some coaching genius merely shackled by his program and resources), then some other school would have at the very least interviewed him for a move up. It's been 16 years, they know what he's capable of doing with a program. What he's capable of doing with a program is 226-268 (131-169) with remarkable talent for the school and conference such as MT and NK (and these records include the inflation from the basically exhibition games against Goucher, Washington Adventist, etc.). Lest we all think that that's only the first few years, he's 139-144 in the last nine years, since his one campaign that topped 20 real wins. And that's against a weaker CAA (no VCU, Mason, etc.).

We play in a conference with about 10 teams (a few more in a particular year back during conference shuffling, but that's about right). Just with back of the napkin numbers, in 16 years, 32 teams have made the conference title game. That means we should see a single average team having made the title game 3.2 times and won it 1.6 times. We don't quite hit even those middle of the road marks.

Additionally, there seems to be some attribution to Tony of player development. I don’t see it. What many people consider player development is merely a player getting bigger, taller, and more used to D-I basketball over a few years of weightlifting and playing D-I ball. That would happen under any coach at any Division I school in the country. What they don’t get better at is playing defense, passes, decision making, etc. That’s the type of player development that is attributable to a coach and that I don’t see. Just because a player’s scoring goes up because other players have graduated doesn’t mean the coach has “developed” him.

What’s the downside of moving on? Missing the NCAA tournament? The rest of the country doesn’t care if W&M goes 17-13 and misses the tournament or 13-17 and misses the tournament. They ultimately become the same thing. What you do have, though, is the possibility of getting someone in there who makes the tournament. If the next guy can’t get it done, then you look again. After 16 years of under .500 ball, I think we’ve established that it’s time to give someone else a chance to go for it.

It seems like most on this board are content with W&M trotting out "a nice little program" that has a winning record almost half the time. I understand that many posters have been run off both here and the old CAA Talk boards for expressing any opinion questioning Tony, but the fact that he's a nice guy has bought him 16 years.. Simply because a previous coach was horrid doesn't mean we should settle for simply below average at this point. Tony is a good guy. The program is no longer a laughing stock. Those are low bars for someone who has been here for that long.

Edit to add: I'm not sure we even want to get into his propensity for ignoring an entire half of the game of basketball (defense) most years.

(03-10-2019 03:50 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 03:34 PM)Tribester Wrote:  So sick of this BS year after year after year. Like I said before, if Shaver doesn’t win the whole damn thing next year with EVERYONE coming back, it will be time to move on

Move on to...the A+ coach you seem to think is available at the mid-major level and willing to live in Tricorner Hat Town, work with a low budget, get half his recruits denied by admissions, and deal with the fanbase who wanted the last guy fired after he led the conference in wins over the past six years? Find me that guy and I'll hire him. If not, I'll count my blessings we've got Tony.

We were good today. Delaware was better. It happens.

Now we get to turn our attention to a year where we'll have at least six championship-caliber players and really have the inside track on a title.

I hate to lob this grenade in here but I've heard (third hand) from two different sources that Tony may be gone. Anyone have insight on this?

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(03-10-2019 04:14 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  I hate to lob this grenade in here but I've heard (third hand) from two different sources that Tony may be gone. Anyone have insight on this?

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There was that one random twitter account that said he was on the hot seat last year. I’d be surprised if they let him go. My comment earlier was out of frustration and will take it back.

Hopefully the Wisconsin guy transferring in is a true sharpshooter. Why we were so great on offense last year is because we had 3 sharpshooters, Pierce (who can drive and shoot), and Knight on the court for much of the game. If you doubled Knight, it usually resulted in a made 3. This season, teams can double Knight and get away with giving up open 3s because we just don't have the shooters of that team from last year.

Wish we would have had Audige and LJ last season, as having them and an 8-9 man rotation would have been huge to letting our starters get 5-10 minutes to rest and not have a huge drop in play on both ends of the court.

This ....

(03-10-2019 03:50 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 03:34 PM)Tribester Wrote:  So sick of this BS year after year after year. Like I said before, if Shaver doesn’t win the whole damn thing next year with EVERYONE coming back, it will be time to move on

Move on to...the A+ coach you seem to think is available at the mid-major level and willing to live in Tricorner Hat Town, work with a low budget, get half his recruits denied by admissions, and deal with the fanbase who wanted the last guy fired after he led the conference in wins over the past six years? Find me that guy and I'll hire him. If not, I'll count my blessings we've got Tony.

We were good today. Delaware was better. It happens.

Now we get to turn our attention to a year where we'll have at least six championship-caliber players and really have the inside track on a title.

The reflexive talk about Tony is silly...he's the most successful coach in W&M basketball annals.

That said, I am in a state of shock...Delaware couldn't miss 3-pointers and almost all were well defended.

A very sad loss.

(03-10-2019 04:08 PM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 03:40 PM)Tribal Wrote:  - 1 on anything related to firing the only good coach we've had in my lifetime.

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If he were actually thought that highly of (as some coaching genius merely shackled by his program and resources), then some other school would have at the very least interviewed him for a move up.

I think you'd be shocked to know the truth about this assumption.

(03-10-2019 03:34 PM)Tribester Wrote:  So sick of this BS year after year after year. Like I said before, if Shaver doesn’t win the whole damn thing next year with EVERYONE coming back, it will be time to move on

So sick of you posting the same BS month after month after month.

Get a grip and breathe.

You want BS, and want to get sick? Prior to Tony, with the rare exception, it was year after year after year of one and done in the tourney.

Prior to Tony, with the rare exception, our players were manhandled on the court, with an offense that was as exciting as watching paint dry, in a Hall that was a morgue.

What is the problem with #4 getting beat by #5 when the teams split during the regular season? Delaware’s supposed to show up and spit the bit?

2020 is the year, and has been the year ... tourney in DC, heavy senior squad, losses on other clubs. This team should approach next year with the plan of getting an at large, and winning right out of the gate in November.

But there is a problem, and that is the offense. This team can not hit from three with the consistency of prior teams. Tony will have to decide whether this year was a blip, or whether the offense gets re-tooled.

I had no expectations for this year. I’m all in on next year.

So please, don’t piss in my cereal bowl with your pathetic pronouncements about it’s next year or else.

(03-10-2019 06:01 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 04:08 PM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 03:40 PM)Tribal Wrote:  - 1 on anything related to firing the only good coach we've had in my lifetime.

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If he were actually thought that highly of (as some coaching genius merely shackled by his program and resources), then some other school would have at the very least interviewed him for a move up.

I think you'd be shocked to know the truth about this assumption.

Yep

On paper the team is stacked year, and if he was removed, and a new coach came in and made the NCAAs with TS's players, that would be the biggest pile of BS in the history of piles of BS

(03-10-2019 04:08 PM)TribeNiner Wrote:  I'll balance this out with a +1.

The only "good" coach we've had hasn't won 20 D-I games in a season (the only games that count - not non-scholly, D-III, etc.) but once in his W&M career (09-10). Better teams have their coaches hired away and teams as bad as us usually fire their coaches. All of this talk about he's "well-respected in the industry" pretty much means that he's a nice guy who has an okay program. If he were actually thought that highly of (as some coaching genius merely shackled by his program and resources), then some other school would have at the very least interviewed him for a move up. It's been 16 years, they know what he's capable of doing with a program. What he's capable of doing with a program is 226-268 (131-169) with remarkable talent for the school and conference such as MT and NK (and these records include the inflation from the basically exhibition games against Goucher, Washington Adventist, etc.). Lest we all think that that's only the first few years, he's 139-144 in the last nine years, since his one campaign that topped 20 real wins. And that's against a weaker CAA (no VCU, Mason, etc.).

We play in a conference with about 10 teams (a few more in a particular year back during conference shuffling, but that's about right). Just with back of the napkin numbers, in 16 years, 32 teams have made the conference title game. That means we should see a single average team having made the title game 3.2 times and won it 1.6 times. We don't quite hit even those middle of the road marks.

Additionally, there seems to be some attribution to Tony of player development. I don’t see it. What many people consider player development is merely a player getting bigger, taller, and more used to D-I basketball over a few years of weightlifting and playing D-I ball. That would happen under any coach at any Division I school in the country. What they don’t get better at is playing defense, passes, decision making, etc. That’s the type of player development that is attributable to a coach and that I don’t see. Just because a player’s scoring goes up because other players have graduated doesn’t mean the coach has “developed” him.

What’s the downside of moving on? Missing the NCAA tournament? The rest of the country doesn’t care if W&M goes 17-13 and misses the tournament or 13-17 and misses the tournament. They ultimately become the same thing. What you do have, though, is the possibility of getting someone in there who makes the tournament. If the next guy can’t get it done, then you look again. After 16 years of under .500 ball, I think we’ve established that it’s time to give someone else a chance to go for it.

It seems like most on this board are content with W&M trotting out "a nice little program" that has a winning record almost half the time. I understand that many posters have been run off both here and the old CAA Talk boards for expressing any opinion questioning Tony, but the fact that he's a nice guy has bought him 16 years.. Simply because a previous coach was horrid doesn't mean we should settle for simply below average at this point. Tony is a good guy. The program is no longer a laughing stock. Those are low bars for someone who has been here for that long.

Edit to add: I'm not sure we even want to get into his propensity for ignoring an entire half of the game of basketball (defense) most years.

A few points:

1. You say the team "hasn't quite hit" the average team benchmarks in Shaver's tenure, citing 3.2 finals appearances, but you know the team has made four (in the span of 11 years). So you're knocking them for--of course--not winning the title, being underdogs in three of the games and very slight favorites in one (NE '15).

2. You cite the benchmarks as what the average school would do over a given time frame, but of course Tony didn't start at "the average." He started with the laughingstock of the conference for the better part of two decades. Changing your school's reputation in the eyes of recruits is always an uphill battle, and giving the program name some respectability took years. That's to say nothing about the inherent disadvantages regarding location, admissions, budget etc. that warp the playing field.

3. You cite the "remarkable talent" for the school like Thornton and Knight with which Tony's supposedly not doing anything...but Tony recruited those guys over, in both instances, dozens of other schools. You can't have it both ways. We must be either recruiting really good talent or developing it. Whichever one it is, Tony has loaded the roster with a level of talent that is a clear cut above where the program was even a decade ago.

That seems to leave the last complaint as...the monkey we haven't gotten off our back. Which, duh, we all know. The thing is, the actual championship opportunities for any team are a precious few games. It's silly to make large generalizations from small sample sizes. Sometimes your shots aren't falling and your opponents' are. We started last regular season by losing by 34 to a sub-.500 team, and we ended it by beating the best team in the conference. Neither was a true measure of the team by itself. The best way to ensure you win a championship is, of course...be good regularly and give yourself lots of opportunities at it. And that's what we've done over the past six years. So it's not that we're content to have nice little 10-8 seasons all the time; it's that that approach gets us more opportunities than if we were regularly terrible.

I don't think anyone is saying Tony walks on water. He has his faults (well-documented around here!). But I think he's a B+ coach in a landscape where a lot of mid-majors would be thrilled to find a gentleman's C. And I think he's the guy best positioned to recruit and develop the top-caliber players we need to maximize our chances to leave tournament purgatory.

(03-10-2019 06:53 PM)Paulbintheburg Wrote:  On paper the team is stacked year, and if he was removed, and a new coach came in and made the NCAAs with TS's players, that would be the biggest pile of BS in the history of piles of BS

Flipping this around- if it doesn't happen in 2019-2020 under Shaver, is it fair to wonder if it's ever going to happen under Shaver? (Assuming Knight and Pierce come back and don't graduate transfer to a bigger school.)

(03-10-2019 03:39 PM)WMtribe17 Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 03:33 PM)tribelifer Wrote:  When Delaware decided to keep Carter on the bench and go with the quicker, smaller lineup, the whole game changed.

They really didn't go quicker or smaller. They brought in Goss who is probably the same height as Carter and probably the same speed. The game changed when Delaware got about 5 consecutive open corner 3s off the same play and drained all 5 of them early in the 2nd half

Carter is 6-9 and Goss is 6-11.

(03-10-2019 03:08 PM)WMtribe17 Wrote:  The sad part is, if we lose this game, I know Delaware is going to go like 4/30 from 3 tomorrow

As I Hofstra fan, I hope so. They made 10 of 24 free throws hosting Hofstra 8 days ago.

(03-10-2019 03:12 PM)ColonelEbirt Wrote:  Horton 7 for 10 from 3. Not sure what else to do.

He was 6 for 9.

(03-10-2019 04:18 PM)TribePride52 Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 04:14 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  I hate to lob this grenade in here but I've heard (third hand) from two different sources that Tony may be gone. Anyone have insight on this?

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There was that one random twitter account that said he was on the hot seat last year. I’d be surprised if they let him go. My comment earlier was out of frustration and will take it back.

I didn't think this would be our year. Next year will be make or break year for us. If they want to let Tony go, it should be after next season. I hope we can win it all next year. Of all people, Tony deserves it the most.

Today was totally disappointing and frustrating. The guys looked great in the first half and not so much in the second half.

It was pretty much a capsule of the season, inconsistent, looking like world champions and cellar dwellers all in the same game.

I’m thinking that it should act as a motivator for both players and staff next year.

GO TRIBE!


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