(03-08-2017 04:04 PM)tribeinexile Wrote: Folks, we are arguing about where to spend money we do not have. We are not going to have either post- or pre-season tournaments or a decent OOC until priorities are changed.
Best comment on this thread. Proof is in the fact that the program is trying to raise money for a pre-season tournament by selling t-shirts, which probably nets them about $10-$15 per shirt. They might as well hold bake sales during games.
It's really not the best comment, and here's why.
For three years, I have banged this drum, publicly and privately. IMO, money for this purpose could easily be raised, should the program CHOOSE to do it.
That is the problem, not lack of current resources in the bank.
EASILY? Well, damn, sounds like you should submit your resume for the vacant A.D. position!
Sorry, no, but did think about it. My head has an aversion to brick walls.
"Hey guys, we're passing the hat. We want to thank the team and coaching staff for all of their efforts, and show our appreciation. We want to see them play one more time wearing that Tribe uniform at the Kap. We want to keep the momentum going in the program."
You don't think that that pitch to the right people who bleed green and gold wouldn't work?
WAS IT EVER TRIED?
Or was it DOA? And if it was DOA, why?
Honestly, it is almost criminal that this group of players for the last 4-5 years played one post-season game.
And if they wanted to play (I know folks say they don't / didn't want to play), what feelings are they going to have for alma mater as they become prime donor targets in the coming years?
Why do you think Tribe athletic alumni giving is so dismal in terms of percentages in most sports?
So we don't have to agree on the CBI/CIT/Vegas idea, but a lot of folks on this Board have some pretty good ideas on what to do, and how to do it, and it's all driven by a love for the school.
The hat was passed last year for summer scholarships for MBB and I believe that it was fully funded in a few weeks. I know this is small potatoes compared to the amounts we are speaking about, but it's miles ahead of tee shirt sales.
I believe I read somewhere (on this board or in a link from it) that it took either JMU (or ODU), 7 years to raise the money for their practice facility. If we don't get started, it won't happen. I'd rather be half way thru a campaign than just starting, but we are where we are...
(03-08-2017 08:30 PM)LeadBolt Wrote: The hat was passed last year for summer scholarships for MBB and I believe that it was fully funded in a few weeks. I know this is small potatoes compared to the amounts we are speaking about, but it's miles ahead of tee shirt sales.
I believe I read somewhere (on this board or in a link from it) that it took either JMU (or ODU), 7 years to raise the money for their practice facility. If we don't get started, it won't happen. I'd rather be half way thru a campaign than just starting, but we are where we are...
I came up with 2k for that summer school campaign. I never heard from anyone on a note of thanks. This eventually got thru the food chain and I got a letter expressing thanks. We are so out of it that we fail to do the simplest of things. It makes those in charge and the players look like ingrates I don't think this is actually the case but appearances matter
Because I was curious/figured no one else would bother looking/completely hate myself I started looking at how teams did three seasons after going to the CBI/CIT and if it really is a gateway to greater success. Made it through the 2008 and 2009 CBI so far.
There are one or two teams for whom this probably was a springboard. Most of the subsequent NCAA trips were from teams that had recent success but had a crappy year. If I get a chance I'll keep working on it tomorrow/over the weekend.
(03-08-2017 11:30 PM)Rocco Wrote: Because I was curious/figured no one else would bother looking/completely hate myself I started looking at how teams did three seasons after going to the CBI/CIT and if it really is a gateway to greater success. Made it through the 2008 and 2009 CBI so far.
There are one or two teams for whom this probably was a springboard. Most of the subsequent NCAA trips were from teams that had recent success but had a crappy year. If I get a chance I'll keep working on it tomorrow/over the weekend.
Nice work but who cares. Unless you are also going to do same for NIT participants, teams that practice in Europe for a week or preseason tourneys, there's no point. I haven't heard anyone claim the reason for participating is based on whether we make the NCAAs next year (though at this point, should we really be ruling out anything??).
It's a reward for the players (if they want) and fans (who would like to see some outside competition) and some exposure.
What I would still like to know - regardless of whether you are for or against - I understand an entrance fee (how much, not sure) - but can you pocket money as well? In the case of VMI two years ago, what happens to the gate receipts from a crowd of 5,000 that show up for a "bogus" game with Yale? Do they keep any of it? Does Yale get a piece?
We all assume it's simply a cost with no benefit - and apparently the only D1 school that sees it that way. I would be curious just to know how this works.
Reading the thread there is a question that is unclear to me. Does William and Mary have sport specific giving? Can a donor give to a specific fund allocated to a specific team, for example men's basketball?
UNCW has this when we made our first big run to the NCAA's. After that, the ability to give to a specific team was eliminated. Then, after the decade of failure, it was reinstated and here we are again.
I did some research, and no other sport comes close to the return on investment that a trip...or run...in the NCAA tournament does. A George Mason professor estimated that their run to the Final Four had a $160 million dollar value. Included television exposure, increased alumni giving, actual NCAA dollars, increased applications, corporate sponsorships, attendance, etc., etc.
Our current pay to Keatts is about 500k. I could make a financial argument to our chancellor that his pay has been covered completely by what will be our 2nd NCAA appearance. UNCW simply cannot buy the amount of name recognition and advertising we will gain from even one game. The newspaper articles, tv spots, commentators talking about the game, people who play NCAA pools, etc. are almost immeasurable.
With that information I could easily justify paying Keatts $1 million per year if he would agree to stay three more years. Point being, investing in your program with the goal of making the NCAA tournament is money well spent.
(03-08-2017 11:30 PM)Rocco Wrote: Because I was curious/figured no one else would bother looking/completely hate myself I started looking at how teams did three seasons after going to the CBI/CIT and if it really is a gateway to greater success. Made it through the 2008 and 2009 CBI so far.
There are one or two teams for whom this probably was a springboard. Most of the subsequent NCAA trips were from teams that had recent success but had a crappy year. If I get a chance I'll keep working on it tomorrow/over the weekend.
Nice work but who cares. Unless you are also going to do same for NIT participants, teams that practice in Europe for a week or preseason tourneys, there's no point. I haven't heard anyone claim the reason for participating is based on whether we make the NCAAs next year (though at this point, should we really be ruling out anything??).
At least one person in this thread suggested that going to these crappy postseason tourneys increases the chances of subsequently going to the NCAA tourney. I guess I'm the only one who cares about whether claims are actually true or not which is fine. My self-loathing is boundless.
(03-09-2017 06:59 AM)82hawk Wrote: Reading the thread there is a question that is unclear to me. Does William and Mary have sport specific giving? Can a donor give to a specific fund allocated to a specific team, for example men's basketball?
UNCW has this when we made our first big run to the NCAA's. After that, the ability to give to a specific team was eliminated. Then, after the decade of failure, it was reinstated and here we are again.
I did some research, and no other sport comes close to the return on investment that a trip...or run...in the NCAA tournament does. A George Mason professor estimated that their run to the Final Four had a $160 million dollar value. Included television exposure, increased alumni giving, actual NCAA dollars, increased applications, corporate sponsorships, attendance, etc., etc.
Our current pay to Keatts is about 500k. I could make a financial argument to our chancellor that his pay has been covered completely by what will be our 2nd NCAA appearance. UNCW simply cannot buy the amount of name recognition and advertising we will gain from even one game. The newspaper articles, tv spots, commentators talking about the game, people who play NCAA pools, etc. are almost immeasurable.
With that information I could easily justify paying Keatts $1 million per year if he would agree to stay three more years. Point being, investing in your program with the goal of making the NCAA tournament is money well spent.
We have sport specific giving, but my understanding is let's say I donate $100 to the basketball team, the school may then take $100 of funds that came from the general athletic fund and reallocate it somewhere else. I don't know if it's a full 1 for 1 thing, but there's been some frustration by many that donations to the bball team don't necessarily increase the coffers to spend on that program, rather it frees up other unrestricted money to go elsewhere.
Wow. That's idiotic and actually would deter any donor from giving to a specific team. It essentially is giving the money to the whole athletic department. If this is true, surely someone on this board can get in the ear of the chancellor or trustees to allow for athletic budgeting, that would be supplemented by the free market giving of donors to the sport they choose, without potential defunding of that sport based on donations. It's just a bad system that limits your possibilities. No wonder you're still a wallflower at the NCAA's.
(03-08-2017 04:04 PM)tribeinexile Wrote: Folks, we are arguing about where to spend money we do not have. We are not going to have either post- or pre-season tournaments or a decent OOC until priorities are changed.
Best comment on this thread. Proof is in the fact that the program is trying to raise money for a pre-season tournament by selling t-shirts, which probably nets them about $10-$15 per shirt. They might as well hold bake sales during games.
It's really not the best comment, and here's why.
For three years, I have banged this drum, publicly and privately. IMO, money for this purpose could easily be raised, should the program CHOOSE to do it.
That is the problem, not lack of current resources in the bank.
EASILY? Well, damn, sounds like you should submit your resume for the vacant A.D. position!
Sorry, no, but did think about it. My head has an aversion to brick walls.
"Hey guys, we're passing the hat. We want to thank the team and coaching staff for all of their efforts, and show our appreciation. We want to see them play one more time wearing that Tribe uniform at the Kap. We want to keep the momentum going in the program."
You don't think that that pitch to the right people who bleed green and gold wouldn't work?
WAS IT EVER TRIED?
Or was it DOA? And if it was DOA, why?
Honestly, it is almost criminal that this group of players for the last 4-5 years played one post-season game.
And if they wanted to play (I know folks say they don't / didn't want to play), what feelings are they going to have for alma mater as they become prime donor targets in the coming years?
Why do you think Tribe athletic alumni giving is so dismal in terms of percentages in most sports?
So we don't have to agree on the CBI/CIT/Vegas idea, but a lot of folks on this Board have some pretty good ideas on what to do, and how to do it, and it's all driven by a love for the school.
This idea was taken from Davidson who has strong athlete giving, and W&M has already surpassed their efforts. Last year, their top % team was lacrosse at 41.88%. W&M had 5 teams do better than that: Men's gymnastics, men's soccer, men's basketball, women's soccer, and women's gymnastics. Davidson's final stats from last year are here: http://www.davidsonwildcats.com/document...f?id=1457.
Fully half of our men's basketball alumni give back to the program vs. 30% for Davidson. Of course there are some sports that could do better, but overall our alumni athletes also give back to W&M at a higher rate than the rest of the alumni population, both to athletics and other areas.
I realize that was only one small part of your overall theme, but that particular comment about alumni giving was not factual.
With regard to funding, it's also worth noting that pretty much every major long-term successful CAA program of the past decade (and longer, but didn't feel like compiling further back) has not had football tying up resources. We are really the only team who has consistently made the CAA championship game that has a football program. But if you think of all the other schools who have had success year in and year out (Northeastern, UNCW, VCU, Mason, ODU, Hofstra and Drexel at times), they are only funding one major sport.
Beyond all our other funding difficulties, this puts the basketball program in an even further hole in relation to its conference rivals. This has been lessened a bit in recent years as VCU, ODU, and Mason have all left the conference, but the CAA remains a conference in which half the schools can devote all their resources to basketball.
Top 6 teams in regular season standings without football:
16-17: 3/6 (both of top 2)
15-16: 3/6 (both of top 2)
14-15: 4/6 (1 of top 2)
13-14: 3/6 (0 of top 2)
12-13: 3/6 (1 of top 2)
11-12: 5/6 (both of top 2)
10-11: 5/6 (both of top 2)
09-10: 5/6 (both of top 2)
08-09: 6/6 (both of top 2)
07-08: 4/6 (both of top 2)
Practice facilities are something I take an interest in, so excuse me for budding into the conversation here. I think if there is any one thing that can help Coach Shaver and staff take the next step it'd be building one.
I do think a dedicated practice facility for basketball was more of an unnecessary perk limited to the P5 programs with money to burn in the past. Now it seems to be the cost of doing business if you want to be successful in MBB. It'd be one thing if CAA programs didn't have them, but W&M's peers in conference are starting to boast such facilities. When you're directly recruiting against programs with them, it ties Coach Shaver's hands and that of his staff to a degree. Those kinds of facilities demonstrate an institutional commitment to basketball that a coaching staff can't sell on their own. I'm willing to bet Elijah Pemberton reneged on his commitment to W&M at least in part because Hofstra has a dedicated 14,000 square foot basketball practice facility: http://www.gohofstra.com/galleries/?gallery=353
Delaware got things started in the CAA several years ago with a 50,000+ square foot addition to the Bob Carpenter Center that is up there with some of the best mid-major facilities in the country. It's not exclusively for the basketball programs as volleyball also shares it, but it's impressive for any recruit to see on their visit. You can get a glimpse of their facility in this season preview video:
JMU doesn't have their proposed Convocation Center at anything beyond a concept stage at this point, but they've proposed a practice facility as part of the project:
W&M has superior academics to sell which is probably unique in the CAA as far as how well-regarded the school is. Some kids will go for that over the facilities, but most kids from 15-18 on their visits will gravitate more towards the flashy digs. Not to mention the fact that having 24 hour facilities with state of the art equipment for basketball development is a big selling point.
In the A-10, the school that fits W&M's profile the most is probably Davidson College as a well-regarded academic institution with a smaller student population. They built a practice facility after joining the league from the SoCon:
(03-09-2017 10:28 AM)formertribe Wrote: W&M's athletic alumni giving is among the best in the nation. Many of you are familiar with the alumni giving challenge, which is hosted here: http://www.tribeathletics.com/sports/201...tribeclub.
This idea was taken from Davidson who has strong athlete giving, and W&M has already surpassed their efforts. Last year, their top % team was lacrosse at 41.88%. W&M had 5 teams do better than that: Men's gymnastics, men's soccer, men's basketball, women's soccer, and women's gymnastics. Davidson's final stats from last year are here: http://www.davidsonwildcats.com/document...f?id=1457.
Fully half of our men's basketball alumni give back to the program vs. 30% for Davidson. Of course there are some sports that could do better, but overall our alumni athletes also give back to W&M at a higher rate than the rest of the alumni population, both to athletics and other areas.
I realize that was only one small part of your overall theme, but that particular comment about alumni giving was not factual.
I know just enough former Tribe basketball players to know that some of them are huge supporters of the program. Whenever special needs come up, those players are asked to chip in. I'd bet my next paycheck that when our shirt sales are insufficient to pay for a pre-season trip, 8 or 10 former players will be asked to fund the difference. I'd bet another paycheck that those players would come through. From what I've seen, they're just essential to the program's success.
One of the main financial limitations of the program is the recognition that it would be wrong and inappropriate to call those 8-10 former players too often. That's why some of us really wanted to establish some kind of basketball-only fund that could be tapped for special needs. Maybe it can happen some day.
(03-09-2017 10:28 AM)formertribe Wrote: W&M's athletic alumni giving is among the best in the nation. Many of you are familiar with the alumni giving challenge, which is hosted here: http://www.tribeathletics.com/sports/201...tribeclub.
This idea was taken from Davidson who has strong athlete giving, and W&M has already surpassed their efforts. Last year, their top % team was lacrosse at 41.88%. W&M had 5 teams do better than that: Men's gymnastics, men's soccer, men's basketball, women's soccer, and women's gymnastics. Davidson's final stats from last year are here: http://www.davidsonwildcats.com/document...f?id=1457.
Fully half of our men's basketball alumni give back to the program vs. 30% for Davidson. Of course there are some sports that could do better, but overall our alumni athletes also give back to W&M at a higher rate than the rest of the alumni population, both to athletics and other areas.
I realize that was only one small part of your overall theme, but that particular comment about alumni giving was not factual.
I know just enough former Tribe basketball players to know that some of them are huge supporters of the program. Whenever special needs come up, those players are asked to chip in. I'd bet my next paycheck that when our shirt sales are insufficient to pay for a pre-season trip, 8 or 10 former players will be asked to fund the difference. I'd bet another paycheck that those players would come through. From what I've seen, they're just essential to the program's success.
One of the main financial limitations of the program is the recognition that it would be wrong and inappropriate to call those 8-10 former players too often. That's why some of us really wanted to establish some kind of basketball-only fund that could be tapped for special needs. Maybe it can happen some day.
(03-08-2017 04:11 PM)WM Beancounter Wrote: Best comment on this thread. Proof is in the fact that the program is trying to raise money for a pre-season tournament by selling t-shirts, which probably nets them about $10-$15 per shirt. They might as well hold bake sales during games.
It's really not the best comment, and here's why.
For three years, I have banged this drum, publicly and privately. IMO, money for this purpose could easily be raised, should the program CHOOSE to do it.
That is the problem, not lack of current resources in the bank.
EASILY? Well, damn, sounds like you should submit your resume for the vacant A.D. position!
Sorry, no, but did think about it. My head has an aversion to brick walls.
"Hey guys, we're passing the hat. We want to thank the team and coaching staff for all of their efforts, and show our appreciation. We want to see them play one more time wearing that Tribe uniform at the Kap. We want to keep the momentum going in the program."
You don't think that that pitch to the right people who bleed green and gold wouldn't work?
WAS IT EVER TRIED?
Or was it DOA? And if it was DOA, why?
Honestly, it is almost criminal that this group of players for the last 4-5 years played one post-season game.
And if they wanted to play (I know folks say they don't / didn't want to play), what feelings are they going to have for alma mater as they become prime donor targets in the coming years?
Why do you think Tribe athletic alumni giving is so dismal in terms of percentages in most sports?
So we don't have to agree on the CBI/CIT/Vegas idea, but a lot of folks on this Board have some pretty good ideas on what to do, and how to do it, and it's all driven by a love for the school.
This idea was taken from Davidson who has strong athlete giving, and W&M has already surpassed their efforts. Last year, their top % team was lacrosse at 41.88%. W&M had 5 teams do better than that: Men's gymnastics, men's soccer, men's basketball, women's soccer, and women's gymnastics. Davidson's final stats from last year are here: http://www.davidsonwildcats.com/document...f?id=1457.
Fully half of our men's basketball alumni give back to the program vs. 30% for Davidson. Of course there are some sports that could do better, but overall our alumni athletes also give back to W&M at a higher rate than the rest of the alumni population, both to athletics and other areas.
I realize that was only one small part of your overall theme, but that particular comment about alumni giving was not factual.
In 2016, W&M had 19 sports.
Six sports were below the general population %. Seven sports were less than 2% greater than the general population % which was 28%.
That's 13 sports at or below 30%... out of a total of 19 sports.
I stand by my characterization of same as dismal in terms of percentages of most sports, your characterization of same not being factual notwithstanding.
And comparing the percentages between Davidson and the Tribe, I would not agree that the Tribe has surpassed Davidson when it comes to comparing the entire programs.
Meanwhile, back to the tourneys, a few others who have committed to the CIT as of today:
St. Peters of the MAAC 19-13 record
Campbell of the Big South 18-15 record
UMBC of the America East 16-15[/align]
(03-08-2017 04:30 PM)nj alum Wrote: It's really not the best comment, and here's why.
For three years, I have banged this drum, publicly and privately. IMO, money for this purpose could easily be raised, should the program CHOOSE to do it.
That is the problem, not lack of current resources in the bank.
EASILY? Well, damn, sounds like you should submit your resume for the vacant A.D. position!
Sorry, no, but did think about it. My head has an aversion to brick walls.
"Hey guys, we're passing the hat. We want to thank the team and coaching staff for all of their efforts, and show our appreciation. We want to see them play one more time wearing that Tribe uniform at the Kap. We want to keep the momentum going in the program."
You don't think that that pitch to the right people who bleed green and gold wouldn't work?
WAS IT EVER TRIED?
Or was it DOA? And if it was DOA, why?
Honestly, it is almost criminal that this group of players for the last 4-5 years played one post-season game.
And if they wanted to play (I know folks say they don't / didn't want to play), what feelings are they going to have for alma mater as they become prime donor targets in the coming years?
Why do you think Tribe athletic alumni giving is so dismal in terms of percentages in most sports?
So we don't have to agree on the CBI/CIT/Vegas idea, but a lot of folks on this Board have some pretty good ideas on what to do, and how to do it, and it's all driven by a love for the school.
This idea was taken from Davidson who has strong athlete giving, and W&M has already surpassed their efforts. Last year, their top % team was lacrosse at 41.88%. W&M had 5 teams do better than that: Men's gymnastics, men's soccer, men's basketball, women's soccer, and women's gymnastics. Davidson's final stats from last year are here: http://www.davidsonwildcats.com/document...f?id=1457.
Fully half of our men's basketball alumni give back to the program vs. 30% for Davidson. Of course there are some sports that could do better, but overall our alumni athletes also give back to W&M at a higher rate than the rest of the alumni population, both to athletics and other areas.
I realize that was only one small part of your overall theme, but that particular comment about alumni giving was not factual.
In 2016, W&M had 19 sports.
Six sports were below the general population %. Seven sports were less than 2% greater than the general population % which was 28%.
That's 13 sports at or below 30%... out of a total of 19 sports.
I stand by my characterization of same as dismal in terms of percentages of most sports, your characterization of same not being factual notwithstanding.
And comparing the percentages between Davidson and the Tribe, I would not agree that the Tribe has surpassed Davidson when it comes to comparing the entire programs.
From the stats you are using, I presume we are looking at the same W&M chart. Our median sport for % is 29.57. Davidson's median sport is at 27.43. Our mean (which is an average of the averages, since we don't have Davidson's numerator or denominator) is 34.3% while theirs is 28.7%. I'm not sure how you can't say we are ahead of them in terms of athletes giving back.
Keep in mind that the alumni challenge only factors in gifts to athletics, so it's apples to oranges when comparing the overall participation rate of W&M, which captures giving to anything at W&M.
Finally, I would be curious if you could find any other D1 program whose athletes give back at a higher rate than what you see on W&M's chart. While 30% may not seem great, that's a huge number. It may be that there are a few other schools that are higher than W&M, but I'm not aware of any.
(03-08-2017 04:30 PM)nj alum Wrote: It's really not the best comment, and here's why.
For three years, I have banged this drum, publicly and privately. IMO, money for this purpose could easily be raised, should the program CHOOSE to do it.
That is the problem, not lack of current resources in the bank.
EASILY? Well, damn, sounds like you should submit your resume for the vacant A.D. position!
Sorry, no, but did think about it. My head has an aversion to brick walls.
"Hey guys, we're passing the hat. We want to thank the team and coaching staff for all of their efforts, and show our appreciation. We want to see them play one more time wearing that Tribe uniform at the Kap. We want to keep the momentum going in the program."
You don't think that that pitch to the right people who bleed green and gold wouldn't work?
WAS IT EVER TRIED?
Or was it DOA? And if it was DOA, why?
Honestly, it is almost criminal that this group of players for the last 4-5 years played one post-season game.
And if they wanted to play (I know folks say they don't / didn't want to play), what feelings are they going to have for alma mater as they become prime donor targets in the coming years?
Why do you think Tribe athletic alumni giving is so dismal in terms of percentages in most sports?
So we don't have to agree on the CBI/CIT/Vegas idea, but a lot of folks on this Board have some pretty good ideas on what to do, and how to do it, and it's all driven by a love for the school.
This idea was taken from Davidson who has strong athlete giving, and W&M has already surpassed their efforts. Last year, their top % team was lacrosse at 41.88%. W&M had 5 teams do better than that: Men's gymnastics, men's soccer, men's basketball, women's soccer, and women's gymnastics. Davidson's final stats from last year are here: http://www.davidsonwildcats.com/document...f?id=1457.
Fully half of our men's basketball alumni give back to the program vs. 30% for Davidson. Of course there are some sports that could do better, but overall our alumni athletes also give back to W&M at a higher rate than the rest of the alumni population, both to athletics and other areas.
I realize that was only one small part of your overall theme, but that particular comment about alumni giving was not factual.
In 2016, W&M had 19 sports.
Six sports were below the general population %. Seven sports were less than 2% greater than the general population % which was 28%.
That's 13 sports at or below 30%... out of a total of 19 sports.
I stand by my characterization of same as dismal in terms of percentages of most sports, your characterization of same not being factual notwithstanding.
And comparing the percentages between Davidson and the Tribe, I would not agree that the Tribe has surpassed Davidson when it comes to comparing the entire programs.
NJ you said giving by former athletes was "dismal". It is factual that former athletes as a population give back to W&M at a higher percentage than the general student population. Pointing out that some sports fall above and below the average is a meaningless distinction. So, unless you're saying alumni giving in general is dismal, there is no need to single out student athletes on this front. This is especially true when you consider most of the recent facility upgrades were largely funded by large donations from former athletes like Kaplan and Zable.
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