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billymac Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Next Up
(03-07-2017 11:06 PM)Tribeheart Wrote:  Hofstra, Drexel, Liberty, Old Dominion, Richmond, George Mason, Davidson, VCU, Tech, UVA, all are signed up.

Frustrating to browse through the 2017 event brackets to date, when seeing teams across the spectrum. If it's about travel money, then....:
http://www.bloggingthebracket.com/2016/1...anksgiving

Good info on the bloggingthebracket site. 11 of the 14 A-10 schools are in an early season tournament. As much as I may not like Bernadette McGlade's tactics, I respect that she laid down the law to her schools about scheduling, which included the early tournaments, when possible.
03-07-2017 11:21 PM
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SoCal Frank Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Next Up
(03-07-2017 10:30 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  
(03-07-2017 07:36 PM)SoCal Frank Wrote:  I'm a committed fan to UCIrvine. We have players who are good students. They love to compete. We won our league title and have the tournament this weekend. We are NCAA or NIT bound. We recruit overseas as well as locally. We play in the early season tournaments, this year in N Dakota and El Paso.
The Tribe needs to upgrade their scheduling. Playing overseas is as useful as chickensh t on a pump handle.
It's been mentioned before, but the UC Irvine coach, Russell Turner, is a Coach Shaver product from his Hampden Sydney days.
Russ, in the worst sort of way wanted to play for Wm and Mary. He still takes great pleasure in recalling leading Hampden Sydney to a win at Kaplan. He's one of a kind. His teams defend the rim
03-07-2017 11:24 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Next Up
Random Thoughts:

1. Thanks to Tribeheart for posting that list of preseason / early season tournaments. What an eye-opener! After seeing that, there is absolutely no excuse why the Tribe can't get into one of those. Start small and work up to bigger, more prestigious ones in upcoming years.

2. When I was a student (graduated in '79) and for about a decade after that, it was routine for the Tribe to play in a pre/early tournament every year. I remember the '77 or '78 team got some nice accolades for winning a tournament. Other years, we played the Lobos in New Mexico; Vanderbilt, Northwestern, and other teams who it was fun to play even if we didn't win. No downside except financial (and I'll address that below).

3. Concerning the postseason tournaments, I find myself in agreement more with NJ Alum and Sitting Bull. I think that we would get some exposure but more importantly, I think the players would get some postseason tournament experience (yes, it is a "postseason tournament" even if the games are meaningless). I was really disappointed when we were in the midst of three straight 20-win seasons but the only postseason game was one NIT. I might be mixing up my years but I thought that when Tarpey and Sheldon were sophs that it would have been great for them to get that postseason experience; same for the other two years when Prewitt and Dixon could have got experience. If we do indeed do it this year (which I doubt) then it will be good experience for the rising seniors and for Knight and Pierce. Experience always helps. Look at our football team and how we seldom string together two straight playoff years. With no continuity, all we ever get is that "gosh, it is great to be here" mentality instead of the crucial postseason experience to carry over.

4. Lastly, I'll just be nice and word it to say that I hope Driscoll's successor is a little looser with the pursestrings than Terry is. Everything is always about money with that guy and not about building the program through championship experiences for the players. Besides, how poor are we really when we have an endowment worth HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars, how our "For the Bold" campaign is raising even more (and which promises a "championship experience" for every student (I am still waiting for that championship experience in basketball)); where the Lord Botetourt affair just raised $300K for the third or fourth year in a row ---- how about we actually try spending some of that money now instead of hoarding it for future generations of students?
03-08-2017 01:06 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Next Up
Holy ****...no one cares about UC-Irvine, Davidson, or any other college located in the vicinity of where some of you moved.


One Tribe. One Family.
03-08-2017 05:57 AM
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Rocco Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Next Up
Here's what the team should spend their money on instead of CIT trip or Europe trip:

https://www.totalcamps.com/TONYBENNETTBASKETBALL
03-08-2017 07:42 AM
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NC Tribe Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Next Up
(03-08-2017 07:42 AM)Rocco Wrote:  Here's what the team should spend their money on instead of CIT trip or Europe trip:

https://www.totalcamps.com/TONYBENNETTBASKETBALL

Funny
03-08-2017 08:50 AM
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hktribefan Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Next Up
I'm torn on the CBI/CIT/Vegas-however-many-they-can-get tournaments. In years past I've been very pro, with the thought that it accomplishes a few things:
-It's more practice time, in the same way making a bowl game (or FCS playoffs) allows you a few more practice days
-It's a chance to reach for another 20 win season (I don't know why people say these tournaments don't count, they count as much as the NIT or the D3 games we play...)
-It's a chance to practice playing on a floor that is not Kaplan (something that we certainly need)
-It's practice playing an opponent you know little about with not much time to scout
-It's a show of financial commitment to basketball (though there are many ways this can be demonstrated)

With that in mind though, I also know that WM lives in a world of constrained resources; possibly more than almost any other D1 program. I don't know how much it costs to play in those tournaments, but I figure there are competing priorities from recruiting budget, coaches salaries, general costs of running a program, etc. We can have our opinions, but it sounds like playing in those pay-to-play is a non-starter with those that are in charge.

There are a few people who are very down on the overseas trip, and I think you're missing the point of the entire exercise. It might be a chance to try and rope a recruit or something, but it's a jumpstart to the season. It allows a sizable chunk of extra practice time, and a chance to build team chemistry. Those are invaluable components to on court success.

I agree with everyone that it would be great to get into one of the early season tournaments, especially because it gets you three or four games for the cost of one on the number you are allowed to schedule (I forget the exact ratio, but typically a tournament like that counts as only one against the total number you can schedule). My guess is that the invitations to these tournaments are extended based on a combination of factors, quality of team and butts in seats being the two most important. Quality of team for us is improving, and demonstrating a commitment to the basketball program helps. This is where in years past I would have said that going to a pay-to-play tournament helps that, but I don't know if that really does, and there are many other ways to demonstrate that commitment (and I think we are improving on that every year). Butts in seats is hard given there are just fewer Tribe alums and fans out there; our showing in Charleston this weekend and in Baltimore over the past few years is a great start, and hopefully shows that Tribe people travel. There are still some spots open for the 2017-2018 season, so hopefully we can get one of those.
03-08-2017 09:29 AM
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Rocco Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Next Up
(03-08-2017 09:29 AM)hktribefan Wrote:  With that in mind though, I also know that WM lives in a world of constrained resources; possibly more than almost any other D1 program. I don't know how much it costs to play in those tournaments, but I figure there are competing priorities from recruiting budget, coaches salaries, general costs of running a program, etc. We can have our opinions, but it sounds like playing in those pay-to-play is a non-starter with those that are in charge.

Hosting a game is not cheap. http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketba...-uc-irvine

"The CIT is part-bracket, part-racket. The tournament charges a fee for teams to host home games. In 2012, it was reported as $30,000 per home game; in 2014, it was reported as $36,000 per home game; and this year, CollegeAD.com reported it was $38,500 to host a game....With Levien Gymnasium generously listed at 2,700 seats, and cheap ticket prices for most fans and free tickets for students, the school would not recoup $38,500 even if it sold out a game. And Columbia hosted four games. It would not be surprising if the deficit incurred by Columbia's CIT participation exceeded $100,000."
03-08-2017 09:32 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Next Up
I get that hosting a game is not cheap.

I come from the school of thought that believes that you spend money to make money.

Want to make the NCAA tourney? There are certain things that you have to spend money on to get there. I believe that this is one of those certain things.

Let's put it another way. What other mid-major is taking the W&M approach re: the CBI/CIT/Vegas? Anyone? What other mid-majors have made the NCAA's? Literally everyone!

So, we're literally taking the path less traveled ... a/k/a not traveled ... and that has made all the difference ... part of the forlorn four.

We are literally running a program with one arm tied behind the back of the program, and the program is not strong enough to do that.
(This post was last modified: 03-08-2017 09:50 AM by nj alum.)
03-08-2017 09:50 AM
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SoCal Frank Offline
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Post: #50
Next Up
Well said. For all you Princeton offense aficionados, chk out p.A18 of today's WSJ. It's all about Pete Carril.
(This post was last modified: 03-08-2017 10:53 AM by SoCal Frank.)
03-08-2017 10:53 AM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Next Up
NJ alum, the flip side to that is that you have to have money to spend money. We're in the get money allocated part, not the spend what we have part. Deciding what to target for raised funds is debatable, but I'm assuming that the target priorities are set with significant input from the coaches and players, since the fundraising is largely driven by boosters.
03-08-2017 11:39 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Next Up
Tribe, I get that.

I get that the department is run the way the department is run ... so if I donate $75,000 for the CBI, $75,000 gets taken out of the MBB budget and given to another sport (simplified version of how it works as explained to me).

I get the negativity towards the CBI/CIT/Vegas.

I get the fact that we consider ourselves Ivy, and want to play ACC teams in sports, but we won't play the Ivies in the CBI, and the NCAA/NIT has basically shut the door on us playing the ACC in the NCAA's / NIT (notwithstanding the UNC game in 2009-2010).

We don't play in early tourneys. We don't have a good OOC home schedule. We won't play in any post-season gig that doesn't start with an "N".

Seriously, what the heck?

Exaspirating!
03-08-2017 11:52 AM
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Rocco Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Next Up
I'm skeptical of the claim that going to these postseason tourneys begets going to the NCAA tourney. CIT Champs and what they did the next year:

2009: ODU (made tourney in 2010) over Bradley (last made tourney in 2006)
2010: Missouri State (didn't make tourney, last made tourney in 1999) over Pacific (didn't make tourney)
2011: Santa Clara (went 8-22) over Iona (made tourney, lost in First Four game)
2012: Mercer (made the NIT) over Utah State (didn't make tourney, skipped out on other posteason tourneys)
2013: ECU (went 17-17) over Weber State (made the tourney)
2014: Murray State (went to NIT, was unbeaten in their conference) over Yale (didn't make the tourney)
2015: Evansville (no postseason tourneys) over Northern Arizona (went 5-25)
2016: Columbia (yeah, not happening) over UC Irvine (won their conference for the 3rd time in 4 years, tournament pending)

CBI:

2008: Tulsa (made the NIT) over Bradley (made CIT)
2009: Oregon State (made CIT) over UTEP (made tourney)
2010: VCU (went to the Final Four) over St. Louis (went 12-19)
2011: Oregon (made NIT) over Creighton (made tourney)
2012: Pittsburgh (made tourney) over Washington State (went 12-19)
2013: Santa Clara (went 14-19) over George Mason (went 11-20)
2014: Siena (went 11-20) over Fresno State (went 15-17)
2015: Loyola (went 15-17) over Louisiana-Monroe (went to CIT)
2016: Nevada (went 26-6, won their conference regular season, tourney pending) over Morehead St. (went 14-16, lost in their tourney)

Made NCAA the next year: 7
Made NIT: 4
Made CBI: 0
Made CIT: 3
No postseason: 18

There are two pending and both are headed to either the NIT or NCAA.

Of the 7 teams that made the NCAA the next year, I'm skeptical that their CBI/CIT run was the propellant. Pitt had been a #1 seed in 2011. VCU, Creighton and ODU made a number of tourney trips previously. UTEP hadn't been to the tourney since 2005 but they have a history and a title. Iona had a drought since 2006 but also had 7 previous appearances. Similar for Weber State. A number of these teams were good teams that got better the next year. Correlation and causation aren't the same thing.

This of course is an incomplete study and I would not use it to draw any absolute conclusions one way or the other. If someone stridently believes that these tournaments lead to success they might want to look at teams who entered these tourneys and track their success to show at least a correlation. Until then, pounding the keyboard and saying "I think it to be so" isn't likely to be persuasive.
03-08-2017 12:24 PM
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Sitting bull Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Next Up
Liberty has now confirmed the CIT and will host a 1st Round game.
03-08-2017 12:35 PM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Next Up
The displacement of budgeted funds for a sport by substituting designated funds for that sport for the budgeted funds and re-allocating the budgeted funds based upon internal priorities including all sports is what happens, if I understand it correctly. (please correct me my understanding is flawed).

This is a turn-off to some givers. They donate funds to help a particular sport that serve to raise the budget for the entire athletic department, including that sport slightly as I understand it. The upside is that we have some better funded non-revenue sports and success in them, but not as much in the revenue sports.

It is my belief that the greatest bang for the buck in athletic success and increased giving going forward from where we are is to increase the funding of BB.
03-08-2017 12:41 PM
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bubbadog57 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Next Up
If the players unanimously vote not to play, as they did the past two seasons and are certainly sure to do so again this year if not already, all these arguments for playing in these expensive, bogus tourneys
go right out the window.
03-08-2017 12:50 PM
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WMTribe90 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Next Up
Put me in the camp that's indifferent to participating in a postseason tournament where we have to pay to play. If the players want to do it and the money is there then I see no objection. Those are both big IFs though. As a former athlete, I know I typically played a lot of catch-up with my academic workload from the time the season ended until finals. Extending the season by a few weeks right up to the end of the semester is no small thing. Sure we would do it for the NIT/NCAA, but that apples and oranges IMO.

I think the crux of the issue is limited dollars and prioritizing needs. Assuming the players did want to participate, is a post-season tourney really the best allocation of scarce dollars? Here's my prioritized wish list for men's basketball after reading this and similar threads in recent years:

1) Increased recruiting budget. The on-court product is better and we need to sell it. The type of student athlete we need to reach our goal are out there, but we need to be able to cast a wide net and get face time.
2) Practice facility.
3) Coaches Salaries - Need to attract and keep top assistants.
3) Preseason tournament. As other have said, more benefit to extra practice and games at the start of a new season when a team needs to gel, then getting the old band together for one more gig at the end of the tour.
4) Summer School - Again, as a former athlete, ability to spread out course work with summer school was significant
5) Post-season tournament. No doubt there is merit to additional games/practices for the returning players, but as mentioned above, the benefit to next year's team, which will have an entirely different dynamic and chemistry is highly questionable.

In a perfect world, there'd be enough dollars to accomplish all the above. Until that day, money for low-level post-season play would be better utilized elsewhere IMO.
03-08-2017 12:51 PM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Next Up
(03-08-2017 12:35 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  Liberty has now confirmed the CIT and will host a 1st Round game.

Irrelevant to the question of postseason pay to play tourneys, but Liberty should be the absolute last program we should ever want to emulate given the values they've shown.
03-08-2017 12:58 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Next Up
(03-08-2017 12:50 PM)BigTribe3 Wrote:  If the players unanimously vote not to play, as they did the past two seasons and are certainly sure to do so again this year if not already, all these arguments for playing in these expensive, bogus tourneys
go right out the window.

Columbia (and other Ivy League schools) and Vermont participate, but William and Mary does not. In many respects, it is as simple as that.

To simply say that all arguments in favor of playing go out the window if the players say "no" does not delegitimize the arguments in favor of playing. Sometimes, the interests of the school, and the program, take precedence.
03-08-2017 01:05 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Next Up
(03-08-2017 12:51 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  Put me in the camp that's indifferent to participating in a postseason tournament where we have to pay to play. If the players want to do it and the money is there then I see no objection. Those are both big IFs though. As a former athlete, I know I typically played a lot of catch-up with my academic workload from the time the season ended until finals. Extending the season by a few weeks right up to the end of the semester is no small thing. Sure we would do it for the NIT/NCAA, but that apples and oranges IMO.

I think the crux of the issue is limited dollars and prioritizing needs. Assuming the players did want to participate, is a post-season tourney really the best allocation of scarce dollars? Here's my prioritized wish list for men's basketball after reading this and similar threads in recent years:

1) Increased recruiting budget. The on-court product is better and we need to sell it. The type of student athlete we need to reach our goal are out there, but we need to be able to cast a wide net and get face time.
2) Practice facility.
3) Coaches Salaries - Need to attract and keep top assistants.
3) Preseason tournament. As other have said, more benefit to extra practice and games at the start of a new season when a team needs to gel, then getting the old band together for one more gig at the end of the tour.
4) Summer School - Again, as a former athlete, ability to spread out course work with summer school was significant
5) Post-season tournament. No doubt there is merit to additional games/practices for the returning players, but as mentioned above, the benefit to next year's team, which will have an entirely different dynamic and chemistry is highly questionable.

In a perfect world, there'd be enough dollars to accomplish all the above. Until that day, money for low-level post-season play would be better utilized elsewhere IMO.

Many of these same arguments apply to Columbia, last year's champs.
03-08-2017 01:06 PM
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