(09-26-2013 10:19 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

This 110%...

I actually think players should have to go through 4 years of college before they go pro. Make them mature. Most college athletes get a degree in General Studies anyways, at least make them earn their way into the NFL.

Good point....maybe they should be required to graduate before they can go pro. Of course thet would be expecting too much

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

Then that is on the kids that decided to go that route just like any other HS student going directly into the workforce and making $$...spending it and crying broke. That is a life lesson.
Look, a kid going pro in a NFL or NBA minor league system isn't going to get millions of $$. It'll be more like $50k or so...probably less. But they get to spend 100% focused on football or basketball and still get training and the like as in college.

Besides, if a kid wants to go pro and try that route it's not like he can't go back to college and get an education later. There is no age limit on going to college. He won't get a scholarship or get to play a sport but that would be his choice from the beginning. He can then pay for the education himself or get a loan like the rest of us. Being an independent student at that time with a lower salary, he may even qualify for grants to pay for the education that he decided to forgo like the rest of the 99% of the students.

(09-26-2013 10:28 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 06:33 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I have been saying that I would like to see a minor league pro football setup for kids who don't want to go to class and earn degrees.

They can go to this minor league or semi-pro setup and get paid and other kids can play college football.

Terry you win the grand prize for best post. I agree totally

This goes back to my point, though: why on Earth would the NFL choose to do this? It doesn't matter what the Big Ten, SEC or NCAA wants in this regard. Unless the NFL deems going to a minor league system is *better* for their business interests (not just tolerable, which is what I see a lot of people trying to argue here), then it won't happen.

It's also interesting how completely backwards the money flow is in these arguments. Here, we see the power conferences making hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue with rabid fan bases and tons of TV exposure, yet the guys running such conferences are saying that if their players want to get paid, they should go to minor and semi-pro leagues that make a fraction of the money. How does this make sense in a free market economy? If power schools want to say that high school students have that type of "choice" or going to college or going pro, then it would be only fair that colleges have a choice of either bringing in revenue off of sports and paying the players OR they can stop bringing in revenue and keep their players truly amateur. We shouldn't let colleges get away with that blatant hypocrisy. As a whole, the people that need to be protected are the 17 and 18-year old kids as opposed to the athletic departments, no matter how much we might love our respective alma maters.

Guys, it's a great move by Delany because now he puts the public pressure on the NBA and NFL. They might NOT want to set up a minor league but Delany just said, we're not you're minor league we have our own interests to protect. You want to get paid ask those leagues why you can't get paid. We're here to educate kids not pay professional athletes.

Brilliant move.

I say do what MLB does. You can go pro out of HS but if you want to go to college you have to stay for a set # of years.

(09-26-2013 10:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 10:28 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 06:33 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I have been saying that I would like to see a minor league pro football setup for kids who don't want to go to class and earn degrees.

They can go to this minor league or semi-pro setup and get paid and other kids can play college football.

Terry you win the grand prize for best post. I agree totally

This goes back to my point, though: why on Earth would the NFL choose to do this? It doesn't matter what the Big Ten, SEC or NCAA wants in this regard. Unless the NFL deems going to a minor league system is *better* for their business interests (not just tolerable, which is what I see a lot of people trying to argue here), then it won't happen.

It's also interesting how completely backwards the money flow is in these arguments. Here, we see the power conferences making hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue with rabid fan bases and tons of TV exposure, yet the guys running such conferences are saying that if their players want to get paid, they should go to minor and semi-pro leagues that make a fraction of the money. How does this make sense in a free market economy? If power schools want to say that high school students have that type of "choice" or going to college or going pro, then it would be only fair that colleges have a choice of either bringing in revenue off of sports and paying the players OR they can stop bringing in revenue and keep their players truly amateur. We shouldn't let colleges get away with that blatant hypocrisy. As a whole, the people that need to be protected are the 17 and 18-year old kids as opposed to the athletic departments, no matter how much we might love our respective alma maters.

How is this different from college baseball and minor league baseball?

Yep, I know. The money.

But conceptually, to me they are the same. A kid can get drafted out of high school and choose to play in college or the minors.

I propose that the minimum requirements for kids to play college football be raised significantly.

A lot of these kids don't graduate and probably should not be in college, anyway.

The ones that can't make those requirements would have to go somewhere. The NFL can sign them to taxi squads if not a "minor league" team.

(09-26-2013 10:30 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 10:19 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

This 110%...

I actually think players should have to go through 4 years of college before they go pro. Make them mature. Most college athletes get a degree in General Studies anyways, at least make them earn their way into the NFL.

Good point....maybe they should be required to graduate before they can go pro. Of course thet would be expecting too much

I wish they had to graduate first. I mean, they have to graduate High School before going to college, why not graduate college before going to the next level?

If you leave college early and without a degree, you don't exactly have a leg up in the real world. Why should the NFL be any different, they're just spoiling these kids with millions and taking their egos to a whole new level.

(09-26-2013 10:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  How is this different from college baseball and minor league baseball?

Yep, I know. The money.

But conceptually, to me they are the same. A kid can get drafted out of high school and choose to play in college or the minors.

I propose that the minimum requirements for kids to play college football be raised significantly.

A lot of these kids don't graduate and probably should not be in college, anyway.

The ones that can't make those requirements would have to go somewhere. The NFL can sign them to taxi squads if not a "minor league" team.

Well, the money definitely matters here. Outside of a handful of SEC and Big 12 schools, college baseball doesn't generate much revenue (and the revenue that it does generate is a fraction of what is generated in basketball and football). In essence, the cost of a college baseball player's scholarship is in line with what that baseball player is worth if he were playing in the minor leagues (or might even be an overpayment).

This is hardly the case for football and basketball (at least at the power conference level). All of that under the table money flowing to top recruits show this - that money wouldn't be out there if the free market was allowed to play such players what they're really worth (which is more than the value of a scholarship).

So, if colleges are fine with their football and basketball programs making the same small amount of revenue that their baseball programs are making (if there's any revenue at all), then I'd find with their argument that a minor league baseball-type system should be used for those sports to be more persuasive. However, it's completely disingenuous to me that, say, Texas A&M, which openly stated that it received nearly $40 million in benefits just from Johnny Manziel's Heisman campaign last year alone (and this isn't even counting ticket revenue and TV contracts), would have the standing to turn around that the only way football players in his position can earn money is to play for a minor league team that probably couldn't earn $40 million over the course of 10 or 20 years. Same thing for Notre Dame, Ohio State, Florida, Texas or any other team that's drawing in revenue at a massive rate.

And look - I'm perfectly fine with the money flowing in college sports. I'm a complete and unabashed capitalist and have never been bothered by conference realignment, TV contracts, sponsorships and all of the other financial factors that we see in sports at both the pro and college levels that so many fans seem to get bothered by on blogs and message boards (but then still buy tickets and watch games on TV to feed that money monster at the end of the day). I don't subscribe to the delusion of amateurism in college sports at all - we crossed the proverbial bridge of college sports being semipro leagues a looooooong time ago. The only thing that bothers me is when that money isn't flowing to everyone involved in generating such revenue.

(09-26-2013 10:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  How is this different from college baseball and minor league baseball?

Yep, I know. The money.

But conceptually, to me they are the same. A kid can get drafted out of high school and choose to play in college or the minors.

It is money and prestige. If college baseball generated the revenue of college football, and winning the CWS brought the same "glory" to a school as winning a BCS title, then boosters would be giving cars and big cash payments to baseball stars and their dads, and paying the stars tens of thousands to sign autographs. And college baseball would be full of non-students who do barely enough in school to stay eligible for baseball.

(09-26-2013 11:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 10:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  How is this different from college baseball and minor league baseball?

Yep, I know. The money.

But conceptually, to me they are the same. A kid can get drafted out of high school and choose to play in college or the minors.

I propose that the minimum requirements for kids to play college football be raised significantly.

A lot of these kids don't graduate and probably should not be in college, anyway.

The ones that can't make those requirements would have to go somewhere. The NFL can sign them to taxi squads if not a "minor league" team.

Well, the money definitely matters here. Outside of a handful of SEC and Big 12 schools, college baseball doesn't generate much revenue (and the revenue that it does generate is a fraction of what is generated in basketball and football). In essence, the cost of a college baseball player's scholarship is in line with what that baseball player is worth if he were playing in the minor leagues (or might even be an overpayment).

This is hardly the case for football and basketball (at least at the power conference level). All of that under the table money flowing to top recruits show this - that money wouldn't be out there if the free market was allowed to play such players what they're really worth (which is more than the value of a scholarship).

So, if colleges are fine with their football and basketball programs making the same small amount of revenue that their baseball programs are making (if there's any revenue at all), then I'd find with their argument that a minor league baseball-type system should be used for those sports to be more persuasive. However, it's completely disingenuous to me that, say, Texas A&M, which openly stated that it received nearly $40 million in benefits just from Johnny Manziel's Heisman campaign last year alone (and this isn't even counting ticket revenue and TV contracts), would have the standing to turn around that the only way football players in his position can earn money is to play for a minor league team that probably couldn't earn $40 million over the course of 10 or 20 years. Same thing for Notre Dame, Ohio State, Florida, Texas or any other team that's drawing in revenue at a massive rate.

And look - I'm perfectly fine with the money flowing in college sports. I'm a complete and unabashed capitalist and have never been bothered by conference realignment, TV contracts, sponsorships and all of the other financial factors that we see in sports at both the pro and college levels that so many fans seem to get bothered by on blogs and message boards (but then still buy tickets and watch games on TV to feed that money monster at the end of the day). I don't subscribe to the delusion of amateurism in college sports at all - we crossed the proverbial bridge of college sports being semipro leagues a looooooong time ago. The only thing that bothers me is when that money isn't flowing to everyone involved in generating such revenue.

Which is really the issue. What generates the money; the name on the front or the one on the back. Of course its a combination of both, but what is the actually split? Manziel plying his trade at North Texas isn't worth nearly as much as playing for A&M.

(09-26-2013 12:10 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  What generates the money; the name on the front or the one on the back. Of course its a combination of both, but what is the actually split? Manziel plying his trade at North Texas isn't worth nearly as much as playing for A&M.

That only goes so far -- even if a big star is not wearing the uniform of one of the most popular teams, he's still a big star who adds a lot of value. RG3 is an excellent example of that.

(09-26-2013 12:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 12:10 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  What generates the money; the name on the front or the one on the back. Of course its a combination of both, but what is the actually split? Manziel plying his trade at North Texas isn't worth nearly as much as playing for A&M.

That only goes so far -- even if a big star is not wearing the uniform of one of the most popular teams, he's still a big star who adds a lot of value. RG3 is an excellent example of that.

So is Joe Flacco....

I don't know Wedge. Playing in a P5 conference has some built in equity that RGIII and Baylor were able to capitalize. Change Baylor to FAU and even Griffin's intrinsic value becomes diminished. He's still great, but not as valuable

The situation is the players want to get paid for making the schools money. The schools are now saying, hey if you want to get paid you need to take your beef up with the NFL. It's their rule that says you can't go pro until three years out of HS.

If these kids have any issue it's with their respective possible pro leagues they want to join, not the schools themselves. In all reality these kids are treated like kings on campus. Girls, fame and a free education if they want to take advantage of it.

(09-26-2013 07:32 AM)AppfanInCAAland Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

If a kid doesn't need a college education to enter his/her desired field, than they shouldn't need to go to college whether its professional sports or plumbing. Delaney is spot on. College football would be fine, even better without the potential troublemakers - fans aren't showing up to watch minor league football players, they are coming to support their school.

They may not need a college education to be a professional athlete, per se, but I think a lot of these high schools kids aren't ready to be professional athletes, either. Many simply aren't mature enough to jump straight from high school to pro ranks. You see the nonsense some of them pull in college. Imagine what they'd be doing with a lot more money in their pockets.

But I'm not saying they should be forced to go to college. I'm fine with kids going pro out of high school if they want. If an NFL team will draft them, good for them. But if you go to college I think you should have to stay 2-3 years like in baseball. The NBA should go that route as well. I couldn't imagine having made LeBron go to college for a year.

Are athletes in other sports like golf and track required to stay in school X number of years before going pro? I'm not aware of any requirement. Seems kind of silly to only put that on the major sports and not the rest.

(09-26-2013 12:40 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  I don't know Wedge. Playing in a P5 conference has some built in equity that RGIII and Baylor were able to capitalize. Change Baylor to FAU and even Griffin's intrinsic value becomes diminished. He's still great, but not as valuable

OK, sure, if the brand value is completely non-existent, that can't be overcome by the star, but that would be true in any sport. LeBron James can't add as much value to a D-League team in South Dakota as he can to the Miami Heat. That doesn't change the fact that it's not just the intrinsic value of the Miami Heat brand -- LeBron adds a lot of value (and is, of course, well-compensated for it).

Yeah, let's go ahead and post this under bad ideas that should never happen. Does anyone believe the decline in both pro and college basketball popularity over the last 20 years has nothing to do with kids going straight to the pros from high school ? Does anyone realize how many athletes come straight out of high school to play pro baseball, and are flipping burgers or delivering washer/dryer sets for Best Buy 10 years later because they never made it out of 1A and have no college degree to leverage? Exactly how popular is pro baseball now by the way?

At best that comment is stupid, at worst irresponsible. He might as well have said "the B1G should take higher education opportunities back away from minorities so we do not have to pay them".

What a *******.

It's also unconscionable that Delany and his ilk don't really care whether the athletes that they use in their sports machines get a degree.

You could just as easily apply that argument to college athletes who never get a degree because neither they nor their school cares whether they get a degree:

Does anyone realize how many athletes come straight out of high school to play pro baseball college basketball, and are flipping burgers or delivering washer/dryer sets for Best Buy 10 years later because they never made it out of 1A finished college and never made it in pro hoops and have no college degree to leverage?

I think his comments were spot on. Put a stipulation in college sports that if a kid has every intention of making pro sports his career he can declare himself eligible for the draft while in high school all the while still entertaining scholarship offers. If he’s not drafted or even if he is but doesn’t like the place he’s drafted he can still choose to take the scholarship and go to college. However, if he chooses the scholarship he’s not eligible for the professional draft again until he’s completed 4 years of eligibility.

The NFL and NBA can sweeten the pot by offering to pay the tuition of any player who chooses to forgo college for the draft as long as they are still part of an NFL / NBA developmental league program if they want to take college courses during the off season.

Draw a bold line between college and pro and make the kids commit to one or the other.

(09-26-2013 02:26 PM)NYCTUFan Wrote:  I think his comments were spot on. Put a stipulation in college sports that if a kid has every intention of making pro sports his career he can declare himself eligible for the draft while in high school all the while still entertaining scholarship offers. If he’s not drafted or even if he is but doesn’t like the place he’s drafted he can still choose to take the scholarship and go to college. However, if he chooses the scholarship he’s not eligible for the professional draft again until he’s completed 4 years of eligibility.

The NFL and NBA can sweeten the pot by offering to pay the tuition of any player who chooses to forgo college for the draft as long as they are still part of an NFL / NBA developmental league program if they want to take college courses during the off season.

Draw a bold line between college and pro and make the kids commit to one or the other.

I agree with you, dude. But it'll never happen. It's not in the best interests of the pros. The money involved makes it a moot point, since it would never be enforceable without the professional leagues coming on board for the idea. And they won't, since it's not in their best interest...

(09-26-2013 02:24 PM)Wedge Wrote:  It's also unconscionable that Delany and his ilk don't really care whether the athletes that they use in their sports machines get a degree.

You could just as easily apply that argument to college athletes who never get a degree because neither they nor their school cares whether they get a degree:

Does anyone realize how many athletes come straight out of high school to play pro baseball college basketball, and are flipping burgers or delivering washer/dryer sets for Best Buy 10 years later because they never made it out of 1A finished college and never made it in pro hoops and have no college degree to leverage?

That has been my point in this thread. A number of schools have low graduation rates for athletes.

Part of the reason is that some of these kids shouldn't be in college in the first place.

Another part is that some schools may not care if the athlete graduates after he has used up his college eligibility.