Slive would answer, "Our players are paid..."

This seems like exactly the kind of thing that the Big Ten type schools (with the Pac-12 and ACC probably following close behind) would propose. They don't want to see their academic reputations sullied...and they know that a semi-pro solution won't work with Title 9 and the extensive policing that needs to take place isn't feasible (which the NCAA is already failing at).

Let's tease this out. The NFL would need to start a development league (maybe they'd follow the failed USFL model of scheduling it in spring when fans are starving for football). That would drain half of the ESPN Top 150 to the NFL D-league.

The NCAA could become more strict, in my opinion, because there would be another option for Reggie Bush and A.J. Green and Dez Bryant and Johnny Manziel and Cam Newton. They could literally be suspended in August, quit school, and play in the NFL immediately. If you plan on cheating, then, don't go to college.

The popularity of NCAA football would dip, for certain, but the love for colleges would still be palpable.

(09-26-2013 02:39 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  Slive would answer, "Our players are paid..."

This seems like exactly the kind of thing that the Big Ten type schools (with the Pac-12 and ACC probably following close behind) would propose. They don't want to see their academic reputations sullied...and they know that a semi-pro solution won't work with Title 9 and the extensive policing that needs to take place isn't feasible (which the NCAA is already failing at).

Let's tease this out. The NFL would need to start a development league (maybe they'd follow the failed USFL model of scheduling it in spring when fans are starving for football). That would drain half of the ESPN Top 150 to the NFL D-league.

The NCAA could become more strict, in my opinion, because there would be another option for Reggie Bush and A.J. Green and Dez Bryant and Johnny Manziel and Cam Newton. They could literally be suspended in August, quit school, and play in the NFL immediately. If you plan on cheating, then, don't go to college.

The popularity of NCAA football would dip, for certain, but the love for colleges would still be palpable.

Actually I think the popularity of college football will remain the same. The NBADL hasn't taken any popularity from college basketball and ain't nobody watching minor league baseball. So I'm pretty sure college ball will still have it's place. The ultimate question will be, will studs rather play in front of 80+K rabid fans and get paid nothing and a degree to fall back on, or would they want to get paid 100-250K in front of no more than 10K fans and 0 guarantee that they'd even play on Sundays?

I think this is a brilliant move by Delany. I highly doubt the NFL is just going to start drafting players after their So and Fr year and I doubt the NFL is going to start a D-League to develop players. The NFL already has it made. What this essentially does is to start the process of regaining control of how corrupt college football has become.

I can't believe I'm saying this. But for the first time ever (that I can remember), I actually agree with what Delany is proposing.

This is exactly the way it should be... but does college have any control over that? I mean, isn't it already like that? The NBA and NFL are the ones imposing the age requirements. The NCAA isn't keeping kids from going pro early; it is the lack of a place to go that is doing that.

So, I guess when Mr. Delaney says that Division I college football and basketball would be better served if they followed Major League Baseball’s model, what he means is that the NCAA would be better served if the NBA and NFL followed MLB's model, and while I guess I could envision expansion of the NBA's D-league (or see more kids going overseas until they are old enough for the NBA), I just don't see that happening in the NFL.

I have been saying that I would like to see a minor league pro football setup for kids who don't want to go to class and earn degrees.

They can go to this minor league or semi-pro setup and get paid and other kids can play college football.

I dont know if this would work, but I wonder if the NFL teams could start having their versions of junior varsity teams. Limited to 18-24 years old. They could play for 2 quarters before the start of the varsity game. Or they could play on saturday while the big boys play on Sunday.

(09-26-2013 03:17 AM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 02:39 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  Slive would answer, "Our players are paid..."

This seems like exactly the kind of thing that the Big Ten type schools (with the Pac-12 and ACC probably following close behind) would propose. They don't want to see their academic reputations sullied...and they know that a semi-pro solution won't work with Title 9 and the extensive policing that needs to take place isn't feasible (which the NCAA is already failing at).

Let's tease this out. The NFL would need to start a development league (maybe they'd follow the failed USFL model of scheduling it in spring when fans are starving for football). That would drain half of the ESPN Top 150 to the NFL D-league.

The NCAA could become more strict, in my opinion, because there would be another option for Reggie Bush and A.J. Green and Dez Bryant and Johnny Manziel and Cam Newton. They could literally be suspended in August, quit school, and play in the NFL immediately. If you plan on cheating, then, don't go to college.

The popularity of NCAA football would dip, for certain, but the love for colleges would still be palpable.

Actually I think the popularity of college football will remain the same. The NBADL hasn't taken any popularity from college basketball and ain't nobody watching minor league baseball. So I'm pretty sure college ball will still have it's place. The ultimate question will be, will studs rather play in front of 80+K rabid fans and get paid nothing and a degree to fall back on, or would they want to get paid 100-250K in front of no more than 10K fans and 0 guarantee that they'd even play on Sundays?

I think this is a brilliant move by Delany. I highly doubt the NFL is just going to start drafting players after their So and Fr year and I doubt the NFL is going to start a D-League to develop players. The NFL already has it made. What this essentially does is to start the process of regaining control of how corrupt college football has become.

I agree completely except I doubt D-League players would get close to 100K. NBA D-Leaguers do not get close to that now.

I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

The problem is a lack of want to, but its not with the NFL or NBA, its from the players themselves. Look at the NBADL. In theory that should be the location for every player serious about turning pro who doesn't give a whit about education. In reality, the benefits of going to college (fame, accolades, accommodations, girls and under the table cash) exceed anything the the D-League can offer.If it were all about the money, then playing in Europe would be a viable option. But Brandon Jennings' less than rewarding experience overseas has probably damaged that route for many.

Delaney is proposing is a interesting gamble to protect the revenue generated by CFB and CBB; if viable and paid minor leagues are established as legit alternatives to college, does the O'Bannon case have a leg to stand on? Wouldn't the restriction of trade argument evaporate away as the college scholarship essentially morphs into a contract for a 1 or 3 year unpaid internship?

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

If a kid doesn't need a college education to enter his/her desired field, than they shouldn't need to go to college whether its professional sports or plumbing. Delaney is spot on. College football would be fine, even better without the potential troublemakers - fans aren't showing up to watch minor league football players, they are coming to support their school.

(09-26-2013 07:20 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The problem is a lack of want to, but its not with the NFL or NBA, its from the players themselves. Look at the NBADL. In theory that should be the location for every player serious about turning pro who doesn't give a whit about education. In reality, the benefits of going to college (fame, accolades, accommodations, girls and under the table cash) exceed anything the the D-League can offer.If it were all about the money, then playing in Europe would be a viable option. But Brandon Jennings' less than rewarding experience overseas has probably damaged that route for many.

Delaney is proposing is a interesting gamble to protect the revenue generated by CFB and CBB; if viable and paid minor leagues are established as legit alternatives to college, does the O'Bannon case have a leg to stand on? Wouldn't the restriction of trade argument evaporate away as the college scholarship essentially morphs into a contract for a 1 or 3 year unpaid internship?

In poker, his little proposal would be considered a bluff. He doesn't really wish to see these things come about but it seems pretty clear that him and the Big Ten Presidents are completely against pay for play. They might end up going for a much smaller stipend but there is a clear line in the sand being drawn.

I think everyone is responding to this wrong and totally overthinking what Delany is actually saying.

(09-26-2013 03:17 AM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 02:39 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  Slive would answer, "Our players are paid..."

This seems like exactly the kind of thing that the Big Ten type schools (with the Pac-12 and ACC probably following close behind) would propose. They don't want to see their academic reputations sullied...and they know that a semi-pro solution won't work with Title 9 and the extensive policing that needs to take place isn't feasible (which the NCAA is already failing at).

Let's tease this out. The NFL would need to start a development league (maybe they'd follow the failed USFL model of scheduling it in spring when fans are starving for football). That would drain half of the ESPN Top 150 to the NFL D-league.

The NCAA could become more strict, in my opinion, because there would be another option for Reggie Bush and A.J. Green and Dez Bryant and Johnny Manziel and Cam Newton. They could literally be suspended in August, quit school, and play in the NFL immediately. If you plan on cheating, then, don't go to college.

The popularity of NCAA football would dip, for certain, but the love for colleges would still be palpable.

Actually I think the popularity of college football will remain the same. The NBADL hasn't taken any popularity from college basketball and ain't nobody watching minor league baseball. So I'm pretty sure college ball will still have it's place. The ultimate question will be, will studs rather play in front of 80+K rabid fans and get paid nothing and a degree to fall back on, or would they want to get paid 100-250K in front of no more than 10K fans and 0 guarantee that they'd even play on Sundays?

I think this is a brilliant move by Delany. I highly doubt the NFL is just going to start drafting players after their So and Fr year and I doubt the NFL is going to start a D-League to develop players. The NFL already has it made. What this essentially does is to start the process of regaining control of how corrupt college football has become.

You might want to revisit this. There are numerous minor league baseball teams who draw more than the Marlins or any college team (except LSU). 55 Minor League teams draw over 5,000 fans a game. At 70-72 home games for AA and AAA, that's over 350,000 a year. There's only about 30 CFB teams that reach those numbers.

For example, the Louisville Bats outdraw the Louisville Cardinals football and basketball teams by an 80% margin.

The D-league is unpopular, but MILB is tremendously popular.

(09-26-2013 07:44 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 03:17 AM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 02:39 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  Slive would answer, "Our players are paid..."

This seems like exactly the kind of thing that the Big Ten type schools (with the Pac-12 and ACC probably following close behind) would propose. They don't want to see their academic reputations sullied...and they know that a semi-pro solution won't work with Title 9 and the extensive policing that needs to take place isn't feasible (which the NCAA is already failing at).

Let's tease this out. The NFL would need to start a development league (maybe they'd follow the failed USFL model of scheduling it in spring when fans are starving for football). That would drain half of the ESPN Top 150 to the NFL D-league.

The NCAA could become more strict, in my opinion, because there would be another option for Reggie Bush and A.J. Green and Dez Bryant and Johnny Manziel and Cam Newton. They could literally be suspended in August, quit school, and play in the NFL immediately. If you plan on cheating, then, don't go to college.

The popularity of NCAA football would dip, for certain, but the love for colleges would still be palpable.

Actually I think the popularity of college football will remain the same. The NBADL hasn't taken any popularity from college basketball and ain't nobody watching minor league baseball. So I'm pretty sure college ball will still have it's place. The ultimate question will be, will studs rather play in front of 80+K rabid fans and get paid nothing and a degree to fall back on, or would they want to get paid 100-250K in front of no more than 10K fans and 0 guarantee that they'd even play on Sundays?

I think this is a brilliant move by Delany. I highly doubt the NFL is just going to start drafting players after their So and Fr year and I doubt the NFL is going to start a D-League to develop players. The NFL already has it made. What this essentially does is to start the process of regaining control of how corrupt college football has become.

You might want to revisit this. There are numerous minor league baseball teams who draw more than the Marlins or any college team (except LSU). 55 Minor League teams draw over 5,000 fans a game. At 70-72 home games for AA and AAA, that's over 350,000 a year. There's only about 30 CFB teams that reach those numbers.

For example, the Louisville Bats outdraw the Louisville Cardinals football and basketball teams by an 80% margin.

The D-league is unpopular, but MILB is tremendously popular.

That's besides the point but I'll play; how many people do you see playing a Washington (PA) Jr Steelers vs Dayton (OH) Jr Bengals compared to an OSU-PSU game?

(09-26-2013 05:52 AM)Chappy Wrote:  This is exactly the way it should be... but does college have any control over that? I mean, isn't it already like that? The NBA and NFL are the ones imposing the age requirements. The NCAA isn't keeping kids from going pro early; it is the lack of a place to go that is doing that.

Exactly.

Also, we're college sports fans here, which means that we tend to look at this issue from a college sports fan perspective. That's a complete mistake. There are two groups to think about: Two main points:

(1) The Pro Leagues (NBA and NFL) - I've seen plenty of arguments how an MLB-style minor league system for the NBA and NFL *could* work in theory, but I haven't seen any argument that it would be *better* for the NBA and NFL. Until you can actually argue that it would be *better* for the NBA and NFL, why on Earth would they change it when they have complete control and legal right to set whatever age-based barriers of entry that they want? Right now, they don't have to deal with the labor and management expenses of running an MLB-style minor league system. At the same time, we can't be naive enough to think that minor league football and basketball teams will get the same level of broad-based national TV interest in college football and basketball. In a world driven by star power in marketing and social media, the NBA and NFL have a *massive* advantage over MLB in having ready-made young stars that are well-known to the general public from the first day that they're in the league. That's a big reason why the NBA imposed the age minimum (as, with the exception of LeBron, even the most elite high school prospects are much less well-known than players that have had national TV exposure with top college programs and teams didn't want to keep risking high lottery picks on players that aren't ready to go immediately) and, if the owners had their druthers, would require 2 years out of high school instead of the current 1 year for draft entry (much less get rid of it again).

(2) The Players - As I've stated elsewhere, if the *only* high school kids that entered the draft were LeBron-level players (and in turn, if GMs would *only* draft LeBron-level players instead of speculative picks on raw talent), then there wouldn't be any issue with eliminating the age minimum in the NBA and NFL. The reality, though, is that too many of these kids overinflate their values in the marketplace and submit themselves to the draft way before they are ready because they have seedy agents and/or family members that push them to take the money right away. Just look at the list of kids from the early-2000s that would have been basketball stars in college that threw away their eligibility by thinking that they'd get drafted - it's far too long and reason enough to know that eliminating the age minimum rules would not work in practicality.

Now, if the NCAA wants to put its money where its mouth is, then it would provide a safety net to that group of players that I referred to above. If you're going to put high school kids into a position where they need to decide "draft or college" immediately, then the NCAA can't punish such kids for fully utilizing all of the tools and resources to make an informed decision. They need to be able to hire legitimate agents in order to have an objective analysis of where they'd likely get drafted (or whether they'd get drafted at all). Too many of these kids are relying on the opinions of people that are (a) blowing sunshine up their a*sses and/or (b) looking for money from them immediately.

I'd even go a step further and say that the NCAA should simply let players submit themselves to the draft and, if they aren't picked or even aren't picked in a round that's high enough for them, then they can still go back to college with their eligibility intact.

In the NFL and NBA, there are only a finite number of players that get drafted. This isn't the same as one of us choosing to work at a startup firm out of high school or going to a top college engineering program. If that startup fails, we can still go back to college and become an engineer. Under the current rules for sports, though, if you don't get drafted after you've submitted your name, you have zero ability to go back to college and improve your position.

If the NCAA is going to put 17 and 18-year old kids in a position where it's literally all-or-nothing and it's going to affect them for the rest of their lives, then they can't just turn their backs on those kids if they're not drafted.

(09-26-2013 07:20 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  The problem is a lack of want to, but its not with the NFL or NBA, its from the players themselves. Look at the NBADL. In theory that should be the location for every player serious about turning pro who doesn't give a whit about education. In reality, the benefits of going to college (fame, accolades, accommodations, girls and under the table cash) exceed anything the the D-League can offer.If it were all about the money, then playing in Europe would be a viable option. But Brandon Jennings' less than rewarding experience overseas has probably damaged that route for many.

Another great point. It's one thing when high school players had the choice of going directly to the NBA. However, when you weigh playing in the D-League/Europe versus college, it's an entirely different value proposition when you're a player. Fame is a powerful lure, and you can get famous playing college basketball in a way that you can't in the D-League/Europe.

Plus, let's put aside the vanity for a moment and remember that these are 17/18-year-old kids just like we were at one time. How many of us would have had the emotional and fiscal maturity to pack up from home for the first time and head off on our own to Europe or one of the small town D-League outposts without any friends or support network? That's pretty rare among the general population and even rarer in the neighborhoods that top basketball and football players disproportionately come from. Plus, add to that the pressure of knowing that this is your *one* shot to make it in your desired profession. Very few of us are in professions where we had only *one* shot to make it.

College is an important transition time for a lot of people. It's the first time away from home for most students where you have to deal with new responsibilities, but there's still a buffer where you're not completely on your own (as you're around tons of other people your own age in the same situation). Let's not discount that factor. I've never bought the argument that kids shouldn't go to college if all they want to do is play sports. There are *lots* of kids that are only going to school for plenty of reasons besides the naive view of receiving a pure education. How many of us are in jobs that deal with very little about what we learned in college? It's probably a fairly high rate. What college teaches you is how to approach issues, advance your social skills and hone your work ethic more than anything. Athletes need those attributes as much as any other student.

The NFL should buy the Canadian Football league and set it up as farm system. They probably could have 10 teams in Canada + maybe add some US cities.

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

This 110%...

I actually think players should have to go through 4 years of college before they go pro. Make them mature. Most college athletes get a degree in General Studies anyways, at least make them earn their way into the NFL.

(09-26-2013 06:33 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I have been saying that I would like to see a minor league pro football setup for kids who don't want to go to class and earn degrees.

They can go to this minor league or semi-pro setup and get paid and other kids can play college football.

Terry you win the grand prize for best post. I agree totally

College doesn't teach them how to handle the money or do any number of other things that they need to know as adults. The real issue is the number of kids coming from poor homes who lack the required life skills needed as an adult let alone an adult who just signed a 5 million dollar contract. I don't believe forcing kids to attend college is going to have any effect on the sad stories we hear about broke professional athletes.