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Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches

By Todd Starnes

A federal appeals court has ruled that New York City can ban churches from using public school facilities for Sunday worship services and does not violate free speech.

Thursday's 2-1 decision by the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan overturned a lower court ruling that allowed the Bronx Household of Faith to hold services in a public school.

The justices said that it could unconstitutionally convert schools into state-sponsored Christian churches on weekends.

An attorney representing the church said they would appeal the ruling.
The ruling means that dozens of churches that rent public school buildings in New York City could face eviction by the end of June.


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The Department of Education said it’s reviewing how to implement the decision. The city said it has no intention of immediately evicting the groups. However, they may be asked to cease using school buildings by the end of June.

“We are very pleased with the Court’s decision today in this longstanding case, which, reversing the lower court, upholds the Department of Education’s policy not to allow public schools to be used for congregational worship services,” said city attorney Jane Gordon in a written statement.

“The Department is quite properly concerned about having any school in this diverse city identified with one particular religious belief or practice.” Jordan Lorence, senior counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, blasted the ruling and called it “very, very disappointing.”
“If we do not get an emergency stay, the churches could be thrown out by the school district,” Lorence told Fox News Radio.

“They might be meeting on the street.” Lorence said they hope the court will grant a longer stay so that churches can continue to rent public buildings. “The religious groups are not seeking special treatment, but equal treatment,” Lorence told Fox News Radio.

“It would be a tragedy if these churches that serve the communities would be tossed out and be made homeless by this anti-religious policy.” But the court determined that allowing churches to use schools resulted in an “unintended bias in favor of Christian religions” – since most Christian churches worship on Sunday.

“Jews and Muslims generally cannot use school facilities for their services because the facilities are often unavailable on the days that their religions principally prescribe for services,” Judge Pierre Leval declared. “At least one request(ed) to hold Jewish services (in a school building used for Christian services on Sundays) was denied because the building was unavailable on Saturdays. This contributes to a perception of public schools as Christian churches, but not synagogues or mosques.”

Judge Leval also took issue with the evangelical church’s membership. “Bronx Household acknowledges that it excludes persons not baptized, as well as persons who have been excommunicated or who advocate the Islamic religion, from full participation in its services.” Leval wrote.
But it all boiled down to a key point, the judges decided. “In the end, we think the board could have reasonably concluded that what the public would see, were the Board not to exclude religious worship services, is public schools, which serve on Sundays as state-sponsored Christian churches,” Leval wrote.

One of those churches that could be homeless is The Journey Church, an evangelical congregation of about 1,000 people that meets in four different public school buildings. “For us, it’s always been about having equal access that any other secular organization might have,” said Kerrick Thomas, one of the church’s pastors.

“I think the fear a lot of people have is that a church meets in the school and they’ll be proselytizing – and it’ll appear that the school is promoting the church. But that’s not the case.” The Journey Church was founded nine years ago and for many of those years, the congregation has worshipped in public school buildings. Thomas said churches are not given any favors. They pay thousands of dollars in rent – and must abide by the same rules as any other organization.

“There are no special benefits given to churches,” he told Fox News Radio. Nevertheless, Thomas said they’ve developed positive relationships with every school they’ve rented – and they’ve gone above and beyond to help students.

“Our commitment has always been to leave the schools in better shape than when we got there through any way we could help and support,” Thomas said, adding that in many instances they’ve assisted schools anonymously. In one case, the church provided school supplies and computers for under-privileged children. Another wanted to perform a play but the school lacked theatrical equipment. So the church provided a sound and lighting system.

“We just did that because we wanted to help out,” Kerrick said. “We believe in what the schools are doing.” But the court determined that allowing churches to use public schools would send the wrong signal to the public.

“When worship services are performed in a place, the nature of the site changes,” Judge Leval wrote. “The place has, at least for a time, become the church.” Whatever happens, Pastor Thomas said they will continue to minister to the city.

“We’ll find a place and we’ll work hard,” he said. “I’m confident we’ll find a home – but it’s going to be difficult.”
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 11:07 AM by SumOfAllFears.)
06-03-2011 11:05 AM
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Native Georgian Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
New York City should be allowed to run it's schools the way it wants to.
06-03-2011 11:44 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
“Jews and Muslims generally cannot use school facilities for their services because the facilities are often unavailable on the days that their religions principally prescribe for services,” Judge Pierre Leval declared. “At least one request(ed) to hold Jewish services (in a school building used for Christian services on Sundays) was denied because the building was unavailable on Saturdays. This contributes to a perception of public schools as Christian churches, but not synagogues or mosques.

I'm sorry don't Muslims pray every day five times? I know Friday is their big day of worship but nothing except *their beliefs* keeps them from renting a public building on a Sunday..

This is money coming out of the school districts and for a crap reason.
06-03-2011 12:10 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-03-2011 11:44 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  New York City should be allowed to run it's schools the way it wants to.

And who do you think "New York City" is? It's the citizens who live there, and obviously some would like to exercise their Constitutionally protected rights, on the property they pay for.

Your willfully contrarian attitude is easily proven absurd.

In Fairfax county, every, and I mean every elementary school (and several Middle and High schools) has a church meeting in it on Sun. It's good for the schools (extra revenue) and good for the environment, and those who oppose urban sprawl.

Meanwhile Maryland schools are less open to such arranagements. Their taxes are higher and schools are worse.
06-03-2011 12:47 PM
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RobertN Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-03-2011 11:05 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches

By Todd Starnes

A federal appeals court has ruled that New York City can ban churches from using public school facilities for Sunday worship services and does not violate free speech.

Thursday's 2-1 decision by the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan overturned a lower court ruling that allowed the Bronx Household of Faith to hold services in a public school.

The justices said that it could unconstitutionally convert schools into state-sponsored Christian churches on weekends.

An attorney representing the church said they would appeal the ruling.
The ruling means that dozens of churches that rent public school buildings in New York City could face eviction by the end of June.


Read more

The Department of Education said it’s reviewing how to implement the decision. The city said it has no intention of immediately evicting the groups. However, they may be asked to cease using school buildings by the end of June.

“We are very pleased with the Court’s decision today in this longstanding case, which, reversing the lower court, upholds the Department of Education’s policy not to allow public schools to be used for congregational worship services,” said city attorney Jane Gordon in a written statement.

“The Department is quite properly concerned about having any school in this diverse city identified with one particular religious belief or practice.” Jordan Lorence, senior counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, blasted the ruling and called it “very, very disappointing.”
“If we do not get an emergency stay, the churches could be thrown out by the school district,” Lorence told Fox News Radio.

“They might be meeting on the street.” Lorence said they hope the court will grant a longer stay so that churches can continue to rent public buildings. “The religious groups are not seeking special treatment, but equal treatment,” Lorence told Fox News Radio.

“It would be a tragedy if these churches that serve the communities would be tossed out and be made homeless by this anti-religious policy.” But the court determined that allowing churches to use schools resulted in an “unintended bias in favor of Christian religions” – since most Christian churches worship on Sunday.

“Jews and Muslims generally cannot use school facilities for their services because the facilities are often unavailable on the days that their religions principally prescribe for services,” Judge Pierre Leval declared. “At least one request(ed) to hold Jewish services (in a school building used for Christian services on Sundays) was denied because the building was unavailable on Saturdays. This contributes to a perception of public schools as Christian churches, but not synagogues or mosques.”

Judge Leval also took issue with the evangelical church’s membership. “Bronx Household acknowledges that it excludes persons not baptized, as well as persons who have been excommunicated or who advocate the Islamic religion, from full participation in its services.” Leval wrote.
But it all boiled down to a key point, the judges decided. “In the end, we think the board could have reasonably concluded that what the public would see, were the Board not to exclude religious worship services, is public schools, which serve on Sundays as state-sponsored Christian churches,” Leval wrote.

One of those churches that could be homeless is The Journey Church, an evangelical congregation of about 1,000 people that meets in four different public school buildings. “For us, it’s always been about having equal access that any other secular organization might have,” said Kerrick Thomas, one of the church’s pastors.

“I think the fear a lot of people have is that a church meets in the school and they’ll be proselytizing – and it’ll appear that the school is promoting the church. But that’s not the case.” The Journey Church was founded nine years ago and for many of those years, the congregation has worshipped in public school buildings. Thomas said churches are not given any favors. They pay thousands of dollars in rent – and must abide by the same rules as any other organization.

“There are no special benefits given to churches,” he told Fox News Radio. Nevertheless, Thomas said they’ve developed positive relationships with every school they’ve rented – and they’ve gone above and beyond to help students.

“Our commitment has always been to leave the schools in better shape than when we got there through any way we could help and support,” Thomas said, adding that in many instances they’ve assisted schools anonymously. In one case, the church provided school supplies and computers for under-privileged children. Another wanted to perform a play but the school lacked theatrical equipment. So the church provided a sound and lighting system.

“We just did that because we wanted to help out,” Kerrick said. “We believe in what the schools are doing.” But the court determined that allowing churches to use public schools would send the wrong signal to the public.

“When worship services are performed in a place, the nature of the site changes,” Judge Leval wrote. “The place has, at least for a time, become the church.” Whatever happens, Pastor Thomas said they will continue to minister to the city.

“We’ll find a place and we’ll work hard,” he said. “I’m confident we’ll find a home – but it’s going to be difficult.”
A couple of things, aren't schools typically closed on sunday? So someone wanted to have them open up the school, bring in someone to clean up after them just so they can do their religous services there? Why can't they do that in the church? Isn't that the point of a church? One other thing, it seems to me that the author got the wording in the title of the article wrong.

Oops. Never mind the first part. Looks like the building is open on Sundays.
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2011 01:14 PM by RobertN.)
06-03-2011 01:11 PM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
[/quote]A couple of things, aren't schools typically closed on sunday? So someone wanted to have them open up the school, bring in someone to clean up after them just so they can do their religous services there? Why can't they do that in the church? Isn't that the point of a church? One other thing, it seems to me that the author got the wording in the title of the article wrong.

Oops. Never mind the first part. Looks like the building is open on Sundays.
[/quote]

i'm assuming these congregations don't have their own facilities. My mom's church used the local high school gym while their new church was being built
06-03-2011 02:55 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-03-2011 12:47 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  In Fairfax county, every, and I mean every elementary school (and several Middle and High schools) has a church meeting in it on Sun.
I fully approve of such practice.
Quote:It's good for the schools (extra revenue) and good for the environment, and those who oppose urban sprawl.
All true, and I wish the authorities in New York would learn from Virginia's example. But I don't believe the courts -and the federal courts, least of all - should require them to do so.

Quote:Meanwhile Maryland schools are less open to such arranagements. Their taxes are higher and schools are worse.
I don't doubt it.
06-03-2011 06:43 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-03-2011 06:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(06-03-2011 12:47 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  It's good for the schools (extra revenue) and good for the environment, and those who oppose urban sprawl.
All true, and I wish the authorities in New York would learn from Virginia's example. But I don't believe the courts -and the federal courts, least of all - should require them to do so.

I understand your point, and agree with it. However, it is a case of taxation w/o fair representation.
06-04-2011 11:26 AM
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RobertN Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
A couple of things, aren't schools typically closed on sunday? So someone wanted to have them open up the school, bring in someone to clean up after them just so they can do their religous services there? Why can't they do that in the church? Isn't that the point of a church? One other thing, it seems to me that the author got the wording in the title of the article wrong.

Oops. Never mind the first part. Looks like the building is open on Sundays.
[/quote]

i'm assuming these congregations don't have their own facilities. My mom's church used the local high school gym while their new church was being built
[/quote]I see. So they want to use taxpayer money to support their religion.
06-04-2011 11:44 AM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-03-2011 06:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(06-03-2011 12:47 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  In Fairfax county, every, and I mean every elementary school (and several Middle and High schools) has a church meeting in it on Sun.
I fully approve of such practice.
Quote:It's good for the schools (extra revenue) and good for the environment, and those who oppose urban sprawl.
All true, and I wish the authorities in New York would learn from Virginia's example. But I don't believe the courts -and the federal courts, least of all - should require them to do so.

Quote:Meanwhile Maryland schools are less open to such arranagements. Their taxes are higher and schools are worse.
I don't doubt it.
I am sure you do support taxpayer money being used to support religion.
06-04-2011 11:46 AM
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Paul M Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
Did you miss the part about renting the facilities? Church goers aren't taxpayers?
06-04-2011 11:50 AM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-04-2011 11:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  I am sure you do support taxpayer money being used to support religion.

I guess that single dollar bill in you pocket is taxpayer support of religion too.

By the way, there is nothing to stop taxpayer support of religion.
06-04-2011 11:54 AM
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RobertN Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-04-2011 11:50 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Did you miss the part about renting the facilities? Church goers aren't taxpayers?
Does the rent actually cover the cost of renting the space out? If not then some/much of it is on the taxpayers dime.
06-04-2011 12:23 PM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-04-2011 11:54 AM)Paul M Wrote:  
(06-04-2011 11:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  I am sure you do support taxpayer money being used to support religion.

I guess that single dollar bill in you pocket is taxpayer support of religion too.

By the way, there is nothing to stop taxpayer support of religion.
Hey, if you don't want tax money going to abortions, I can not want my tax money going to religous organizations.
06-04-2011 12:25 PM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-04-2011 11:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  I am sure you do support taxpayer money being used to support religion.

Umm you do realize there were no taxpayer dollars being used here? The Church was paying the schools not the other way around....

IOW the schools now have *less money* than they did before..
06-04-2011 12:43 PM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-04-2011 12:23 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-04-2011 11:50 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Did you miss the part about renting the facilities? Church goers aren't taxpayers?
Does the rent actually cover the cost of renting the space out? If not then some/much of it is on the taxpayers dime.

Yes it does, otherwise a school would no do it...

What cost is there in renting out the space on Sunday? Electricity?

But you don't really care... Despite the fact it was clearly spelled out that the Church was paying the school your liberal mind went right to 'taxpayer dollars supporting religion'..
06-04-2011 12:46 PM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
Robert wants more money spent on schools but when the schools find a legitimate way to raise that money, he opposes it.
06-04-2011 01:02 PM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-04-2011 11:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-03-2011 06:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(06-03-2011 12:47 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  In Fairfax county, every, and I mean every elementary school (and several Middle and High schools) has a church meeting in it on Sun.
I fully approve of such practice.
I am sure you do support taxpayer money being used to support religion.
There is "support" and there is "support", and it all depends on the details. But certainly the idea of churches using school property on non-school days sounds unobjectionable to me. I am confident most people in America -- and for that matter, most people in New York City -- would agree with me on that.

Not to mention that, in this instance, the schools were actually getting money in exchange for the use of the space.
06-04-2011 01:26 PM
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RobertN Offline
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-04-2011 12:43 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-04-2011 11:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  I am sure you do support taxpayer money being used to support religion.

Umm you do realize there were no taxpayer dollars being used here? The Church was paying the schools not the other way around....

IOW the schools now have *less money* than they did before..
Really? You have the bills to prove that they are being charged the total cost of using the building?
06-04-2011 02:04 PM
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RE: Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches
(06-04-2011 12:46 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-04-2011 12:23 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(06-04-2011 11:50 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Did you miss the part about renting the facilities? Church goers aren't taxpayers?
Does the rent actually cover the cost of renting the space out? If not then some/much of it is on the taxpayers dime.

Yes it does, otherwise a school would no do it...

What cost is there in renting out the space on Sunday? Electricity?

But you don't really care... Despite the fact it was clearly spelled out that the Church was paying the school your liberal mind went right to 'taxpayer dollars supporting religion'..
06-04-2011 02:07 PM
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