cbfranchise3 Wrote:Thank you Nate. Being (or trying my best to be) a religious man, it is just my opinion that no human has the right to take another human's life, despite the crimes he has committed. I know that seems simple, and that is because it really is that simple. As Nate said, we are all sinners, and there is only one being that has the right to judge in this world.

Amen.

RebelKev Wrote:Ok, how about, "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"?

You're blanketing me Nate. My views are my views alone. It doesn't matter to me what conservatives think, liberals think, Catholics think, Episcopals think, or anyone else. "I" don't want to have to pay for him and as far as the whole "it's cheaper to keep them in jail" argument, well that's society's fault. If someone is proven guilty without a shadow of doubt, give him one time to appeal(within a year) and when he/she loses, take them out in the street and execute them publically. If that DID happen I can guarantee you violent crime would drop.

Call me a vicious SOB(Sorry Neal) all you want. My heart lies with the victims and their families....not with some animal that thought it was fun to snuff out lives of not only adults, but children as well. ...and if they weren't in good with the Lord, they are in Hell as they didn't have a chance to repent.

......and to quote Megadeth, Judge: "Boy, your soul better belong to Jesus, mmm hmmm, 'cause your ****** belongs to me".

I'm sorry, but have you ever heard of a guy named Jesus Christ? His heart lied with the animals IN ADDITION to the mourning families... The sick need a doctor, not the healthy. Jesus would reach out to his enemies... the murderers, the sinners (every one of us), and help to reconcile them to be a new person... You're trying to be God by judging whether someone is fit to live or die. By deciding that this man has no chance to live anymore, you are acting upon the same premise Muhammed did when he killed those people. You want to play God. No one can fault you for it, we all do it at different times. I do it just as often as anyone on these boards, but I realize my mistakes and hope for forgiveness. I don't condone playing God, but I do realize that we all try to do it, and that it is necessary to realize that it is a sin and you must repent.

RebelKev Wrote:Ok, how about, "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"?

You're blanketing me Nate. My views are my views alone. It doesn't matter to me what conservatives think, liberals think, Catholics think, Episcopals think, or anyone else. "I" don't want to have to pay for him and as far as the whole "it's cheaper to keep them in jail" argument, well that's society's fault. If someone is proven guilty without a shadow of doubt, give him one time to appeal(within a year) and when he/she loses, take them out in the street and execute them publically. If that DID happen I can guarantee you violent crime would drop.

Call me a vicious SOB(Sorry Neal) all you want. My heart lies with the victims and their families....not with some animal that thought it was fun to snuff out lives of not only adults, but children as well. ...and if they weren't in good with the Lord, they are in Hell as they didn't have a chance to repent.

......and to quote Megadeth, Judge: "Boy, your soul better belong to Jesus, mmm hmmm, 'cause your ****** belongs to me".

Oh, I forgot... you don't believe in a community of Christians... :rolleyes:

No one "owns" anything in this world... all is owned by the Creator of those things, God. People can possess things, but they are all finite. When you die, they are gone... You can't own someone's body, someone's fate... any of that. It's impossible. Again, by trying to own someone, whether it's their soul or their flesh, you are trying to be God.

And you aren't a vicious SOB... You're just someone who has let his intellect get in the way of true Christian beliefs.

BTW... I don't care if you don't follow any set Christian doctrine... but you must remember that there have been thousands upon thousands of people who have given up their lives to study theology... 98% of whom are against the death penalty... These people have studied scripture... written scholarly books, been challenged by people like you... etc... and the almost unanimous Christian response is against the death penalty...

There is a fairly consistent trend that the more someone studies scripture... the more they value human life and become pacifists... People who don't study scripture often are pro-war, pro-death penalty and kill human life wrecklessly.

And this... Ok, how about, "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"?


Thanks for proving my point... This does not say "He who lives by the sword shall die by another mortal's sword"... For all we know, this is making a statement about how God will deal with this person's sin.

Damn Nate, that's a lot of responding. :laugh:

We'll just agree to disagree. I still want to see him fried.

How many of you who are saying he shouldn't fry live in the DC area. How many of you live less than a mile away from the middle school where the little boy was shot. My friends wife had just dropped her son off at the very spot where the boy was shot 8 minutes prior to him being shot. Could have easily been their kid.

I as well as all others in the DC Metro area spent weeks zig zagging back and forth as we walked into stores and then started pumping gas and running back into your car or into the quick mart just to try to stay safe.

Believe me if you lived the terror of those weeks who would want nothing more than to see these guys FRY publicly.

I

[quote="NavyDoc69"] How many of you who are saying he shouldn't fry live in the DC area. How many of you live less than a mile away from the middle school where the little boy was shot. My friends wife had just dropped her son off at the very spot where the boy was shot 8 minutes prior to him being shot. Could have easily been their kid.

I as well as all others in the DC Metro area spent weeks zig zagging back and forth as we walked into stores and then started pumping gas and running back into your car or into the quick mart just to try to stay safe.

Believe me if you lived the terror of those weeks who would want nothing more than to see these guys FRY publicly.

I

This is a hard one. My personal conviction has always been opposed to the death penalty, because of all the reasons Nate has mentioned.

However, I know it would be hard for me to keep that conviction if someone close to me were murdered and the murderer were sentenced to death. There would be a part of me that would want retribution. But, I don't think that would make it right. That would be my vindictive feeling and it would be one that (in my eyes) goes against the example that Christ set.

But, I will not judge anyone for feeling differently on the issue. I can understand it, just as I understand that the death penalty has some benefits (e.g., I think some murderers have truly confessed of their sins and turned to the Lord because of the clarity/powerlessness that their coming execution offered them).

Nate (or anyone else): I wanted to ask if you've seen The Green Mile. It was a long film in some parts, but I really think it was extremely powerful for me and had a lot of good symbolism. Truly one of my favorites of all time....

-JD

NATE Enjoy!

Quote: I'm not someone who believes in the infallability of the Bible, I believe that parts of the old testament are either false or misinterpreted over time.

Well if you honestly believe this then there is no way you can call yourself a true Christian because this statement goes against everything Christianity teaches.

Quote: Further, God never tells Joshua or Moses to kill anyone, he merely promises them the land and tells them to "take the land"...

Well it is outstanding of you to not let the facts get in your way. You may want to check into the battles that were fought for these lands that GOD just told them to take. Do you honestly think that Joshua just walked up to the walls of Jericho and said my GOD says this is our land you must leave now? Sure he did that but they laughed at him. Why don

I also believe the DP is ethically wrong, but whether or not you believe in the death penalty as an ethical/moral issue, there are many, many other flaws with it, including factors with poor counsel, disproportions with race, the fact that it is NOT a deterrent to crime, and that states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than those states without it.

Over the past 23 years, there has been on average a 68% error rate regarding capital cases (usually involving serious errors in trials, where 82% were convicted of something other than 1st degree or not given a DP sentence, including 7% who were flat out innocent), and as DNA testing becomes more and more frequent, there are more and more stories buried in the back pages of the newspaper about people who were on death row for 14-15 years and were finally found innocent

as for the personal matter, if someone convicted of 1st degree murder killed one of my loved ones, I'd prefer they spend life in prison without parole. I wouldn't care if they had televison or radio, that's no compensation to waking up every day for the rest of your life in a tiny cell with one hour of outside time.

I simply don't believe that state-sponsored killings are going to solve anything, especially when you throw in a few innocent folks into the mix.

I can understand the retirubution factor though, and realize that the families of the victims can sometimes be comforted by the execution of a killer.

As was one of the points on this thread, God does have the power to punish and kill as he sees fit, humans do not. If God however instructs his people to kill, he has given them that right.
The only way that I would condone killing is if they were directly told by God to kill, and the government in this country I doubt has had that calling.

I am sure nobody on this thread is intending to disrespect anybody, they are just passionate about a very serious topic. I still will say that the judgement that is passed every day in this country is the biggest threat in all aspects of our lives. It is the root of racism, murder, and every thing else that destroys our lives. We all pass judgement every day without realizing that, some judgements more serious than others. The judgement and decision to end somebodys life is the worst somebody can pass. We have no right to do something that affects the world in such a big way.

You argue that I would feel differently if I lived in the DC area or was connected to one of the victims in any way. I honestly hope that my beliefs would not change. Vengeance is the basis of the death penalty, and sends the message to this nation to take an eye for an eye. This has been proved by comments on this board that you simply want to see them die. It honestly pains me to read that.

SSJT Wrote:I also believe the DP is ethically wrong, but whether or not you believe in the death penalty as an ethical/moral issue, there are many, many other flaws with it, including factors with poor counsel, disproportions with race, the fact that it is NOT a deterrent to crime, and that states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than those states without it.

Over the past 23 years, there has been on average a 68% error rate regarding capital cases (usually involving serious errors in trials, where 82% were convicted of something other than 1st degree or not given a DP sentence, including 7% who were flat out innocent), and as DNA testing becomes more and more frequent, there are more and more stories buried in the back pages of the newspaper about people who were on death row for 14-15 years and were finally found innocent

as for the personal matter, if someone convicted of 1st degree murder killed one of my loved ones, I'd prefer they spend life in prison without parole. I wouldn't care if they had televison or radio, that's no compensation to waking up every day for the rest of your life in a tiny cell with one hour of outside time.

I simply don't believe that state-sponsored killings are going to solve anything, especially when you throw in a few innocent folks into the mix.

I can understand the retirubution factor though, and realize that the families of the victims can sometimes be comforted by the execution of a killer.

We have not even touched the point of, Hey, what if we screw up and execute an innocent person? All it takes is once, and the death penalty would be gone forever. Watch the movie The Life of David Gale, a very interesting movie on this topic.

cbfranchise3 Wrote:As was one of the points on this thread, God does have the power to punish and kill as he sees fit, humans do not. If God however instructs his people to kill, he has given them that right.
The only way that I would condone killing is if they were directly told by God to kill, and the government in this country I doubt has had that calling.

I am sure nobody on this thread is intending to disrespect anybody, they are just passionate about a very serious topic. I still will say that the judgement that is passed every day in this country is the biggest threat in all aspects of our lives. It is the root of racism, murder, and every thing else that destroys our lives. We all pass judgement every day without realizing that, some judgements more serious than others. The judgement and decision to end somebodys life is the worst somebody can pass. We have no right to do something that affects the world in such a big way.

You argue that I would feel differently if I lived in the DC area or was connected to one of the victims in any way. I honestly hope that my beliefs would not change. Vengeance is the basis of the death penalty, and sends the message to this nation to take an eye for an eye. This has been proved by comments on this board that you simply want to see them die. It honestly pains me to read that.

You can't bring up things that are fiction. What about the people who don't believe in God? it's just not fair to bring up something that hasn't been close to 100% proven.

We have been talking about the Bible on this entire thread. :rolleyes:

regardless of how long you've been talking about it, i don't think it's fair to throw the bible at the non-believers.

The death penalty is needed and deserved. It's the only true way to eliminate terrorist and other such extreme threats. Read Patriot Games by Tom Clancy sometime... the extreme loonies find prison laughable.

If you want to get into a religious discussion, we can do that.

Frankly, I can only assume God would have no problem with the death penalty. Look around you.... hunger, filth, plague, poverty, death, destruction, bigotry, hate, war, crime, NSYNC, the ice capades, Gigli.... If the Earth were watched over by a proactive God, he would have to hate the Earth.

Enter Deism here, please.

[quote="NavyDoc69"] NATE Enjoy!

[quote] I'm not someone who believes in the infallability of the Bible, I believe that parts of the old testament are either false or misinterpreted over time. [/quote]

Well if you honestly believe this then there is no way you can call yourself a true Christian because this statement goes against everything Christianity teaches.

No... in order to be a fundamentalist you must believe in the infallability of the Bible. Christians as a whole believe that the Bible is God's word but like any mortal document, it is probably flawed. Jewish scholars didn't even want to put Ecclesiastes in the Torah because it was so depressing, and more about Earth and humanity than God.

[quote] Further, God never tells Joshua or Moses to kill anyone, he merely promises them the land and tells them to "take the land"...[/quote]

Well it is outstanding of you to not let the facts get in your way. You may want to check into the battles that were fought for these lands that GOD just told them to take. Do you honestly think that Joshua just walked up to the walls of Jericho and said my GOD says this is our land you must leave now? Sure he did that but they laughed at him. Why don

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:The death penalty is needed and deserved. It's the only true way to eliminate terrorist and other such extreme threats. Read Patriot Games by Tom Clancy sometime... the extreme loonies find prison laughable.

If you want to get into a religious discussion, we can do that.

Frankly, I can only assume God would have no problem with the death penalty. Look around you.... hunger, filth, plague, poverty, death, destruction, bigotry, hate, war, crime, NSYNC, the ice capades, Gigli.... If the Earth were watched over by a proactive God, he would have to hate the Earth.

Enter Deism here, please.

WHAT? That's full of so many holes I don't know where to start.