I agree with GDawgs...there is a peace in knowing that God has a plan for your life, and you recieve this peace by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - John 14:27

"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." - John 16:33

GrayBeard Wrote:

mlbUC Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:It would be too depressing to think that you are a mistake that have ape relatives and have no meaning and then die and become nothing.

How does believing in and following God make your life have meaning?

It's called giving your life a purpose.

Once we realize that we are here on Earth to serve the God that Serves Us, then our life has meaning. Your life is not yours, but the Lords. :angel:

techfan4 Wrote:Why? Because man sinned. And with that comes struggles. If you choose to follow God, then your struggles are over for eternity...if you don't, you'll live in hell for eternity...take your pick. It's a whole lot more peaceful knowing that your life has a purpose. It would be too depressing to think that you are a mistake that have ape relatives and have no meaning and then die and become nothing.

But N*Sync...I think that was a mistake...I think they dropped out of his hands

If you ask me, needing an imaginary friend to feel better about life is like a kid having an imaginary friend to feel better when he's lonely.

But that's another topic... the excuse for the things I listed is "because man sinned." Well, just about every faith holds forgiveness very high up in its list of values. Certainly God should have the same quality faith pushes forward as ideal, right? I mean, if God isn't going to forgive you, that's pretty unloving, isn't it? If he didn't care about you during your stay on Earth, why would he suddenly care after your (theoretical) afterlife?

As for the heaven/hell thing.... that sounds to me like a great method of social control. How to make sure the people stay in order and don't get out of hand? You have a big brother figure (in this case God) that knows what you do at all times. You can't escape this big brother. If you aren't good, big brother does something very very very horrible to you (reducation followed by murder, or hell). If you are good big brother lets you live happily (not die and enjoy your stay on problem-ridden earth ... or re-live in heaven).

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:Why? Because man sinned. And with that comes struggles. If you choose to follow God, then your struggles are over for eternity...if you don't, you'll live in hell for eternity...take your pick. It's a whole lot more peaceful knowing that your life has a purpose. It would be too depressing to think that you are a mistake that have ape relatives and have no meaning and then die and become nothing.

But N*Sync...I think that was a mistake...I think they dropped out of his hands

If you ask me, needing an imaginary friend to feel better about life is like a kid having an imaginary friend to feel better when he's lonely.

But that's another topic... the excuse for the things I listed is "because man sinned." Well, just about every faith holds forgiveness very high up in its list of values. Certainly God should have the same quality faith pushes forward as ideal, right? I mean, if God isn't going to forgive you, that's pretty unloving, isn't it? If he didn't care about you during your stay on Earth, why would he suddenly care after your (theoretical) afterlife?

As for the heaven/hell thing.... that sounds to me like a great method of social control. How to make sure the people stay in order and don't get out of hand? You have a big brother figure (in this case God) that knows what you do at all times. You can't escape this big brother. If you aren't good, big brother does something very very very horrible to you (reducation followed by murder, or hell). If you are good big brother lets you live happily (not die and enjoy your stay on problem-ridden earth ... or re-live in heaven).

I believe God is giving his children a choice to follow him, otherwise we would all be perfect. YOU have to choose for YOURSELF whether you want to believe in him.

Imaginary? No. I receive peace every day. Ask others here that believe like I do. Knowing that my life has a purpose and knowing that I will spend eternity in heaven gives me peace every day. Now, who knows? Maybe the Mormon's belief that God is a man is correct(Although Romans 1:22 disproves that)? As for the big brother...If there was a need for social control, they would go to communism. Just ask China...look how miserable they are...look at Hitler and Stalin. Now GTS...don't get me wrong..you have mentioned many times how bad a man Stalin was...he didn't like people standing in the way of his evolution/communist beliefs. What a great guy to have on your side, right? Hitler was into the "survival of the fittest" and basically promoted the evolution theory with his murdering. I think you start to notice that there are faults to many people who believe in evolution. Lyell was a lawyer who made up the column...he knew it wasn't true. He simply didn't want to believe in a God.

You know there is something wrong with your theory when mass execution is used to promote it.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:Why? Because man sinned. And with that comes struggles. If you choose to follow God, then your struggles are over for eternity...if you don't, you'll live in hell for eternity...take your pick. It's a whole lot more peaceful knowing that your life has a purpose. It would be too depressing to think that you are a mistake that have ape relatives and have no meaning and then die and become nothing.

But N*Sync...I think that was a mistake...I think they dropped out of his hands

If you ask me, needing an imaginary friend to feel better about life is like a kid having an imaginary friend to feel better when he's lonely.

But that's another topic... the excuse for the things I listed is "because man sinned." Well, just about every faith holds forgiveness very high up in its list of values. Certainly God should have the same quality faith pushes forward as ideal, right? I mean, if God isn't going to forgive you, that's pretty unloving, isn't it? If he didn't care about you during your stay on Earth, why would he suddenly care after your (theoretical) afterlife?

As for the heaven/hell thing.... that sounds to me like a great method of social control. How to make sure the people stay in order and don't get out of hand? You have a big brother figure (in this case God) that knows what you do at all times. You can't escape this big brother. If you aren't good, big brother does something very very very horrible to you (reducation followed by murder, or hell). If you are good big brother lets you live happily (not die and enjoy your stay on problem-ridden earth ... or re-live in heaven).

Everybody sins and "being good" isn't going to get you to heaven.

I think you make a great point about God and your time on earth. You asked why would he suddenly care after your death?

That's the whole point. He does care about you and your time on earth. That is precisely what techfan4 is trying to tell you. The whole point is He is giving you this time on earth to make your decision. When you die, you or really anyone who has heard God's word won't have any excuses or be able to blame anyone for their situation, but themselves. The minute you accept God, he wipes your slate clean (see techfan4's John 3:16). It is kind of like getting your ticket to eternity. However, after you die, it is too late to get the ticket. You have to get it beforehand. It isn't that God doesn't want to forgive you, it is that you do not want Him to forgive you. He wants to, but its free will. you have to make the decision. If He made it, you would just be a puppet. That's what is hard about faith. You have to believe in something you can't see, touch or hear.

As far as the social control thing, the thing that supposedly keeps everyone under control is your conscience, not God. Believers and non-believers alike have this, which is why non-believers don't go around killing people. Think about it, if you don't believe in God and God was the one that "kept us in line", what would stop a non-believer from doing whatever they wanted? Nothing. I think if you look around you can see that when something bad has happened, it is usually because that person who did the bad thing either lost their conscience or stopped listennig to it.

As I stated above, I don't believe just "being good" gets you to heaven (i.e. this wouldn't control a person who believes this.) I also believe there are just as many very good/nice non-believers as believers and probably just as many bad believers as non-believers.

techfan4 Wrote:Imaginary? No. I receive peace every day. Ask others here that believe like I do. Knowing that my life has a purpose and knowing that I will spend eternity in heaven gives me peace every day. Now, who knows? Maybe the Mormon's belief that God is a man is correct(Although Romans 1:22 disproves that)? As for the big brother...If there was a need for social control, they would go to communism. Just ask China...look how miserable they are...look at Hitler and Stalin. Now GTS...don't get me wrong..you have mentioned many times how bad a man Stalin was...he didn't like people standing in the way of his evolution/communist beliefs. What a great guy to have on your side, right? Hitler was into the "survival of the fittest" and basically promoted the evolution theory with his murdering. I think you start to notice that there are faults to many people who believe in evolution. Lyell was a lawyer who made up the column...he knew it wasn't true. He simply didn't want to believe in a God.

You know there is something wrong with your theory when mass execution is used to promote it.

I am comparing social control through heaven/hell with big brother.. b/c they parallel beautifully. I'm not talking about socialism or communism... but CONTROL.

Also, there is no comparison between Hitler and evolution, unless you consider Hitler's judgement IDENTICAL to the laws of nature and fitting every form of person in every form of location. And if you do, well, I think we can stop the argument right there.

To construe the two to be one in the same is a logical fallacy the size of Ralph Friedgen.

Quote:To construe the two to be one in the same is a logical fallacy the size of Ralph Friedgen.

Why not Ric Majerus?

And I can't speak for techfan4, but see my arguement above in regards to the social control.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:Imaginary? No. I receive peace every day. Ask others here that believe like I do. Knowing that my life has a purpose and knowing that I will spend eternity in heaven gives me peace every day. Now, who knows? Maybe the Mormon's belief that God is a man is correct(Although Romans 1:22 disproves that)? As for the big brother...If there was a need for social control, they would go to communism. Just ask China...look how miserable they are...look at Hitler and Stalin. Now GTS...don't get me wrong..you have mentioned many times how bad a man Stalin was...he didn't like people standing in the way of his evolution/communist beliefs. What a great guy to have on your side, right? Hitler was into the "survival of the fittest" and basically promoted the evolution theory with his murdering. I think you start to notice that there are faults to many people who believe in evolution. Lyell was a lawyer who made up the column...he knew it wasn't true. He simply didn't want to believe in a God.

You know there is something wrong with your theory when mass execution is used to promote it.

I am comparing social control through heaven/hell with big brother.. b/c they parallel beautifully. I'm not talking about socialism or communism... but CONTROL.

Also, there is no comparison between Hitler and evolution, unless you consider Hitler's judgement IDENTICAL to the laws of nature and fitting every form of person in every form of location. And if you do, well, I think we can stop the argument right there.

To construe the two to be one in the same is a logical fallacy the size of Ralph Friedgen.

Sorry I got off...but was just thinking about how the great guys you have pulling for this theory!

I am vehemently opposed to the current theories of (macro)evolution because they are BAD SCIENCE.

They are this generation's version of phlogiston. It's embarassing that this theory is considered "science".

Here are some of my objections:

1. The theory it worthless. Often it is tautological- a circular argument. Despite claims to the contrary from biologists, they will often site "evidence" like, "this animal (or adaptation) provides the fittest species...ergo survival of the fittest is proven". Of course this isn't proven, often other adapations aren't considered.
Another popular line of reasoning is, "genetics show how close humans are to chimpanzees...thus proving their close taxonomical relationship along the evolutionary tree". Well, taxonomy groups animals by similar traits...genetics dictates what traits a species has...ergo if animals are similar they MUST have similar genetics.

And I have read, first hand, that when a mistake was made in the observation of an animals behavior...botht the mistaken publication and the corrected one were used as "evidence" to support evolution. Wait, if a theory can be "proven" no matter what the observable is...then it's WORTHLESS!

2. Little to no evidence. We're talking macro-evolution. And there is little fossil evidence. That's why Gould had to come up w/ his "puncuated equilibrium " theory. I have a reference from Sci American (c. 1980) that explicitly says the same thing. Note, little new fossil evidence has been discovered in the past 25 years, however suddenly evolutionists have bountiful fossil evidence, there was never a problem (why did Gould bother then) and *real* skeptics are luddites. Curiously, evolutionists don't have clear references to that fossil evidence, and few have ever actually worked in the area of paleontology.

3. Too much BS. In addition to the dearth of fossil evidence, evolutionists have a long history of faking data: from Piltdown man, embryonic recapitulation, and faked photos of pepper moths...evolutionists always seem to be citing bogus evidence. Why? No real evidence to cite. BTW, the pepper moth argument was never one that supported evolution (as if natural selection was of any consequence) so throwing that one out is almost meaningless.

4. Too much evidence against. The notion of "irreducible complexity" is the death nell to the current theories. Briefly, it says that modern animals have systems that are comples, involving many different organs, structures and proteins. These are unlikely to evolve, because the independent component offer no "advantage" (an absolute requsite for evolution, that is often conveniently forgotten) by themselves. However, the genetic mutations required to cause ALL of these components to occur could NEVER happen at the same time.
Evolutionists now simply dismiss this as a "logical fallacy". And SOME complex systems they have a thin line of reasoning against (no evidence to support their idea, and the onus is on them to prove it, but modern skeptics have forgotten who's supposed to prove their ideas.) However, many of these complex systems exist, and the hand-waving excuse is an indictment on how bad this theory is.

Hitting on genetics for a moment (and only Dawkins seems to like this area, Gould would rather look at the big picture, offering no plausible mechanism for his theory. He might as well be looking for the Philosophers Stone). The advances made in the past 2 decades work against evolutionary theory. It has been learned that many portions of the genetic code actually affect _various_ regions in the body. For example, part of the code that affects hair color may also be part of the code that affects the nervous system. Thus a mutation in one section, one of those *rare* beneficial mutations, would likely affect at least one other system...and it's even less likely that it would be beneficial!

No, quite frankly, the scientific evidence points against macro-evolution...to believe in it requires a faith that defies logic. If the self-proclaimed skeptics of the day really knew logic and science, they'd bash these bozos and we'd get it out of schools and start teaching something worthwhile.

techfan4 Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Evolution;  I find the refusal to believe one is descended from monkies, given the archeological evidence, arrogant.  I am Deist, so my religious beliefs mesh with evolution perfectly.  To believe in creationism, in my opinion, is to replace a landslide of scientific evidence with your imaginary friend of preference.

Arrogant? If I'm wrong, then maybe...but I have too much faith to believe that. Until any transitional evidence is found, I am 100% doubtful of humans coming from apes. Isn't it weird that the whole story of creation in the Bible fits? Where did the monkies/apes come from?

Im sorry but some naked dude pulling his ribs out to make some naked chic isnt exactly believable.

If that were the case 99.9% of men would be ribless.
:eek:

mlbUC Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:It would be too depressing to think that you are a mistake that have ape relatives and have no meaning and then die and become nothing.

How does believing in and following God make your life have meaning?

Exactly.

I was waiting for this thread to turn into that bullsh_t.

techfan4 Wrote:I agree with GDawgs...there is a peace in knowing that God has a plan for your life, and you recieve this peace by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - John 14:27

"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." - John 16:33

Now Im really going to barf.

MU ATO Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Evolution;  I find the refusal to believe one is descended from monkies, given the archeological evidence, arrogant.  I am Deist, so my religious beliefs mesh with evolution perfectly.   To believe in creationism, in my opinion, is to replace a landslide of scientific evidence with your imaginary friend of preference.

Arrogant? If I'm wrong, then maybe...but I have too much faith to believe that. Until any transitional evidence is found, I am 100% doubtful of humans coming from apes. Isn't it weird that the whole story of creation in the Bible fits? Where did the monkies/apes come from?

Im sorry but some naked dude pulling his ribs out to make some naked chic isnt exactly believable.

If that were the case 99.9% of men would be ribless.
:eek:

If your going to ridicule the Bible, at least get the stories right. Otherwise you just look like a Religion Hating Idiot and nobody, except for other religion hating idiots, will give your thoughts the time of day.

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:Why? Because man sinned. And with that comes struggles. If you choose to follow God, then your struggles are over for eternity...if you don't, you'll live in hell for eternity...take your pick. It's a whole lot more peaceful knowing that your life has a purpose. It would be too depressing to think that you are a mistake that have ape relatives and have no meaning and then die and become nothing.

But N*Sync...I think that was a mistake...I think they dropped out of his hands

If you ask me, needing an imaginary friend to feel better about life is like a kid having an imaginary friend to feel better when he's lonely.

But that's another topic... the excuse for the things I listed is "because man sinned." Well, just about every faith holds forgiveness very high up in its list of values. Certainly God should have the same quality faith pushes forward as ideal, right? I mean, if God isn't going to forgive you, that's pretty unloving, isn't it? If he didn't care about you during your stay on Earth, why would he suddenly care after your (theoretical) afterlife?

As for the heaven/hell thing.... that sounds to me like a great method of social control. How to make sure the people stay in order and don't get out of hand? You have a big brother figure (in this case God) that knows what you do at all times. You can't escape this big brother. If you aren't good, big brother does something very very very horrible to you (reducation followed by murder, or hell). If you are good big brother lets you live happily (not die and enjoy your stay on problem-ridden earth ... or re-live in heaven).

Makes sense to me.

Make people think they are going to the big Evil hot uncomfortable place to peel potatoes for the rest of their lives.

OR

Go to the nice soft comfortable room temperature place where they get to see all of their dead croaked friends and family that are waiting with open arms.

:rolleyes:

GrayBeard Wrote:

MU ATO Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Evolution;  I find the refusal to believe one is descended from monkies, given the archeological evidence, arrogant.  I am Deist, so my religious beliefs mesh with evolution perfectly.   To believe in creationism, in my opinion, is to replace a landslide of scientific evidence with your imaginary friend of preference.

Arrogant? If I'm wrong, then maybe...but I have too much faith to believe that. Until any transitional evidence is found, I am 100% doubtful of humans coming from apes. Isn't it weird that the whole story of creation in the Bible fits? Where did the monkies/apes come from?

Im sorry but some naked dude pulling his ribs out to make some naked chic isnt exactly believable.

If that were the case 99.9% of men would be ribless.
:eek:

If your going to ridicule the Bible, at least get the stories right. Otherwise you just look like a Religion Hating Idiot and nobody, except for other religion hating idiots, will give your thoughts the time of day.

I dont care about the story as thats all it is a story.

I dont hate religion, I have a great religion.

Football.

Dont be pissy becuase your religion stories sound stupid. You're lucky that some people believe that crap to begin with.
:rolleyes:

MU ATO Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

MU ATO Wrote:Im sorry but some naked dude pulling his ribs out to make some naked chic isnt exactly believable.

If that were the case 99.9% of men would be ribless.
:eek:

If your going to ridicule the Bible, at least get the stories right. Otherwise you just look like a Religion Hating Idiot and nobody, except for other religion hating idiots, will give your thoughts the time of day.

I dont care about the story as thats all it is a story.

I dont hate religion, I have a great religion.

Football.

Dont be pissy becuase your religion stories sound stupid. You're lucky that some people believe that crap to begin with.
:rolleyes:

Hey, if you want to look ignorant, that is your decision. Have at it!

blah Wrote:1 & 2. Not true. Scientists believe they will find water on Mars, but as of yet have not. They recently used some sort of telescope to look for these lines that they say are caused by water under the surface, but as of now have not yet discovered any. The Bible dosen't reference life on any other planet, so finding it wouldn't really prove anything except that there is or was life on another planet. Although there again might be water on one of Saturn's moon, I don't believe anyone has proved this.

3. True

4. No, I don't. I was trying to comment on how there is almost perfect symbiosis between plants and animals. If there wasn't one would have taken over the other over the last "billion" years. You can't use evolution on this one, because history has shown that many species have run out of resources and have gone extinct before they adapt/evolve.

5. For me, this is the most compelling. The one thing that almost every thing needs, water, just happens to be the one thing that is less dense in its solid form, thereby preserving life.

My friend, who is also a deist, says that this fact is the one thing that makes him believe that there might have been a higher power who started this whole thing, as he cannot explain it away through simple science.

1 & 2 are both true. Mars has polar ice caps. This has been well documented, and is known to be there. It is also known to be on Titan due to chemical signitures water gives off.

If there is life on other planets (which it appears there is/was), that would be a pretty big point in Gods history that was left out by the bible.

4. If you don't look at the science, and you believe blindly, yes, the bible is a good place to start.

5. I don't get your point about ice being less dense than regular water making life possible... care to explain?

I don't necessarily doubt that there might have been something that started it all (a God, per se). My point is that evolution has the evidence behind it to show the evolution of man. According to the bible, man was created on the 7th day. Poof, out of the blue, man was there. When there is evidence that directly contradicts this, I have trouble believing anything else stated inside of the book.

GrayBeard Wrote:

mlbUC Wrote:How does believing in and following God make your life have meaning?

It's called giving your life a purpose.

Once we realize that we are here on Earth to serve the God that Serves Us, then our life has meaning. Your life is not yours, but the Lords. :angel:

I've always been told that if I don't take God to heart, I will go to hell for eternity. Wouldn't that then be eternal life as well? :)

GrayBeard Wrote:Hey, if you want to look ignorant, that is your decision. Have at it!

Touche... depending on a person's viewpoint on this subject, you could be considered ignorant for ignoring scientific evidence...

mlbUC Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:Hey, if you want to look ignorant, that is your decision.  Have at it!

Touche... depending on a person's viewpoint on this subject, you could be considered ignorant for ignoring scientific evidence...

You missed my point. It was not about agreeing with something or not. It was if you are going to quote or discuss parts of the Bible (or anything else for that matter), he should atleast get them right.