Really? Who in the W&M athletics community approves of the termination of the Tribe 7? Not one person in my vast circle has spoken favorably of this.

The direction of donor dollars reflects Option 3 ... keeping Olympics and emphasizing certain sports ... which is my position.

Ways to do both?

Easy. Forget about maximized scholarship money in the Olympic sports. Don’t have to raise money.

But I suspect that Title IX is the problem with that approach which is why this is a structural issue, and the school really needs to be BOLD.

Reform the NCAA. Leave the NCAA. Change conference affiliation. Go independent. Form a new conference. Change D-1 classification. File a legal challenge against the NCAA and Title IX over all rules and regs. that have allegedly “forced” W&M to terminate the Tribe 7. Partner with private entities re: facilities. Partner with US Olympic Committee. Allow enhanced giving to certain sports without the school taking it away on the back side when general funds are disbursed.

would people support dropping to the Patriot League or D3 in order to have more sports?

seems both of those ideas would lower costs, but those ideas also have zero support among this board of posters, based on my memories of when this is discussed in the past.

This board was very excited that Rowe saw the value that sports can bring to the school and how they can be used to lift the profile. Now those decisions are being made and many are unhappy.

Can't have it both ways.

(09-16-2020 12:25 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Really? Who in the W&M athletics community approves of the termination of the Tribe 7? Not one person in my vast circle has spoken favorably of this.

On the balance, I support cutting some (volleyball and the gymnastics) of the sports. Of course I'd rather choose Door #3 but if I'm presented with the (false) choice of increasing funding to football/basketball or keeping volleyball and the gymnastics, I'd choose the cuts.

(09-16-2020 12:27 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  would people support dropping to the Patriot League or D3 in order to have more sports?

seems both of those ideas would lower costs, but those ideas also have zero support among this board of posters, based on my memories of when this is discussed in the past.

This board was very excited that Rowe saw the value that sports can bring to the school and how they can be used to lift the profile. Now those decisions are being made and many are unhappy.

Can't have it both ways.

Pretty much this.

The other thing that is mostly being ignored in this discussion is the reality of the financial situation during and post-pandemic. Regardless of whatever cuts may or may not have been planned in the past, it seems like a good chance that these moves may now need to happen not to invest more in basketball/football, but just to stay afloat in those sports and keep them funded at a level that has any hope of being competitive. The basketball program in particular was already abysmally funded compared to our conference rivals and merely overachieved the level of that funding. If that funding was further slashed, there would almost be no hope for the program.

So I'd be surprised if we see a dramatic expansion of support above pre-COVID levels for the flagship sports, and that this is more about survival.

(09-16-2020 11:52 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  At the heart of all of this is a disagreement on what people want athletics at W&M to be. Some want it to continue as a broad based program (more broad than similar sized schools with similar resources) where resources are stretched thin for all teams and athletics doesn't do much to add to W&M's national profile and awareness. Others, including the current administration, want to put more resources towards programs where continued success can enhance W&M's national profile and awareness. So current decisions are being made with that goal in mind.

I think it's fair to say that there are discernible "broad program" and "focus on football/basketball to raise profile" camps. (There's also a smaller, less vocal "dump football" camp -- and, truth be told, FCS football will never be much of a profile-raiser).

But there's plenty of room for someone to want to elevate football and basketball, and acknowledge that some cuts (although not necessarily these particular cuts) were inevitable, but still to be completely horrified by the fundamental dishonesty and ham-fistedness with which these cuts have been executed at W&M.

It's hard to believe at this point that less than a year ago, "Tribe 2025" was actually talking about adding another women's sport.

(09-16-2020 12:27 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  would people support dropping to the Patriot League or D3 in order to have more sports?

seems both of those ideas would lower costs, but those ideas also have zero support among this board of posters, based on my memories of when this is discussed in the past.

This board was very excited that Rowe saw the value that sports can bring to the school and how they can be used to lift the profile. Now those decisions are being made and many are unhappy.

Can't have it both ways.

We’ll never know if we could have had it both ways or not, because there was no effort at communication or direct warning and no effort at targeted fundraising for these programs was made during the campaign for the (un)bold or OTOD. In my opinion this is not an either or decision. We can have a successful basketball program that raises the profile of the school and maintain olympic sports. The fact that WM raised money for Kaplan before these cuts were announced is proof of that. As is the fact that the swimming team was, on their own, able to solicit pledges in the amount of 1 million in less than a week of fundraising. Because Huge used the pandemic as an excuse to cut sports she quite obviously was happy to be rid of, we will never know if the needed funds could have been raised. Knowing the commitment and generosity of the WM community, I wouldn't not have bet against us raising the funds. I’m guessing Huge feared the same, which is why she couldn’t have been bothered to even try before cutting these programs. I’m done until I see an athletic department culture that I recognize. I didn’t hire Huge and I never signed onto her vision for modeling our athletics department after the corrupted P5 model.

If the last two, well-written, moderate posts fail to permeate the gray matter of a few folks, nothing will. Neither appear to be militant Fire Huge drum beaters, either.

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(09-16-2020 01:11 PM)Tribal Wrote:  If the last two, well-written, moderate posts fail to permeate the gray matter of a few folks, nothing will. Neither appear to be militant Fire Huge drum beaters, either.

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Well, maybe not militant, but to be honest I’d give that drum a few whacks, given the opportunity.

(09-16-2020 12:27 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  would people support dropping to the Patriot League or D3 in order to have more sports?

seems both of those ideas would lower costs, but those ideas also have zero support among this board of posters, based on my memories of when this is discussed in the past.

This board was very excited that Rowe saw the value that sports can bring to the school and how they can be used to lift the profile. Now those decisions are being made and many are unhappy.

Can't have it both ways.

C'mon! Don't cherry pick and put words in our mouths.

This is a very nuanced subject, and to simply say that there are only two ways is simplistic, unbecoming a W&M grad, and shines a light on why some of us are apoplectic that apparently our Administration went simplistic, rather than nuanced, in addressing the college athletics challenges of the day.

You want to be simple?

Fine.

Our school has done a 180. How's that?

(09-16-2020 01:20 PM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 01:11 PM)Tribal Wrote:  If the last two, well-written, moderate posts fail to permeate the gray matter of a few folks, nothing will. Neither appear to be militant Fire Huge drum beaters, either.

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Well, maybe not militant, but to be honest I’d give that drum a few whacks, given the opportunity.

I was going for a subtle touch. Feels weird.

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(09-16-2020 01:29 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 01:20 PM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 01:11 PM)Tribal Wrote:  If the last two, well-written, moderate posts fail to permeate the gray matter of a few folks, nothing will. Neither appear to be militant Fire Huge drum beaters, either.

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Well, maybe not militant, but to be honest I’d give that drum a few whacks, given the opportunity.

I was going for a subtle touch. Feels weird.

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Subtlety and finesse is a natural instinct when commenting on a post that uses the term "ham-fistedness"...

(09-16-2020 01:21 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 12:27 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  would people support dropping to the Patriot League or D3 in order to have more sports?

seems both of those ideas would lower costs, but those ideas also have zero support among this board of posters, based on my memories of when this is discussed in the past.

This board was very excited that Rowe saw the value that sports can bring to the school and how they can be used to lift the profile. Now those decisions are being made and many are unhappy.

Can't have it both ways.

C'mon! Don't cherry pick and put words in our mouths.

This is a very nuanced subject, and to simply say that there are only two ways is simplistic, unbecoming a W&M grad, and shines a light on why some of us are apoplectic that apparently our Administration went simplistic, rather than nuanced, in addressing the college athletics challenges of the day.

You want to be simple?

Fine.

Our school has done a 180. How's that?

FWIW I would prefer to not cut the sports. And I would prefer that there were fundraising efforts made explicitly to save them. I am not happy. But I understand why they did it.

Just because I disagree with the result doesn't mean the deciders didn't follow a logical thought/action process to get there. I think the President, BOV, and AD had a common vision for the athletic department, and that plan is being executed.

edit: and obviously I also agree the PR efforts are terrible

Fair enough.

What is the vision? Whose vision is it? Does it have broad support? “Reports” don’t cut it ... it has to be sold ... and it wasn’t sold. BTW, since I follow this, regardless of the “sale”, I don’t agree with the vision.

I value a football player, a basketball player, a gymnast, a volleyball player, a track athlete, and a swimmer equally. They all bring something to the table.

The table had 23 coming for dinner. Seven just got dis-invited; the table now only seats 16.

Who dis-invited the seven? Mom and dad.

Why? Not because mom and dad could no longer feed 23 ... but because mom and dad wanted to give the 16 bigger portions.

Where do mom and dad get the money to feed 23, now 16? From the relatives. When the relatives are asked for the same/more money, they inquire as to the missing seven. The response is ... we miss them, but the 16 need bigger portions.

The relatives’ response? Not on my dime.

One Tribe. One Family.

673 rocks have been turned over ... $1,012,837.13 has been raised.

There is also a Response to “Open Letter from W&M Athletics” that has been released by W&M Past and Present SAAC Presidents calling out the Athletics Department. Very powerful.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=12...n__=%2B%3E

Based on this, the new ISC extension/Millington replacement will also house Kinesiology. This means Adair will largely be abandoned. Should it be retroactively turned back to its old gym/pool layout? Possible natatorium? Will it be demolished?

https://www.wm.edu/offices/facilities/de.../index.php

Small in the scope of things, but Tim Payne (WR on the football team) also runs the 100, 200, and hurdles. Guess he can punt that idea.

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(09-18-2020 02:27 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  Based on this, the new ISC extension/Millington replacement will also house Kinesiology. This means Adair will largely be abandoned. Should it be retroactively turned back to its old gym/pool layout? Possible natatorium? Will it be demolished?

https://www.wm.edu/offices/facilities/de.../index.php

For what it's worth, the 2015 Campus Master Plan plans for Adair to be renovated for fitness, recreation, and athletic use so likely multipurpose (pgs. 67-68). A natatorium would be interesting to see, if we should be so lucky, though.

1. I believe the BOV will conduct a "listening session" on 9/23 (maybe Zoom?) then they will have closed sessions over the following two days. I don't have the info in front of me.

2. Released on a Friday night, totally obscure, I had to screenshot this from a social media post. Anyway...

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(09-18-2020 02:58 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Small in the scope of things, but Tim Payne (WR on the football team) also runs the 100, 200, and hurdles. Guess he can punt that idea.

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Also, '21 commit, Jalen Jones, is a state champion T&F. He takes it seriously, so...

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(09-19-2020 04:48 AM)Tribal Wrote:  1. I believe the BOV will conduct a "listening session" on 9/23 (maybe Zoom?) then they will have closed sessions over the following two days. I don't have the info in front of me.

2. Released on a Friday night, totally obscure, I had to screenshot this from a social media post. Anyway...

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I’ve largely stayed out of the fray with things related to Huge, especially after some well respected members of this board left because of the first big blowup with her.

But...

This incident and letter speak to the heart of what my major concerns are to with her.

I think, for better or worse, there is a logic and plan to her high profile moves. They may not align with everyone’s belief or desires for W&M athletics, but I believe there is a rationale to them.

However, when it comes to the day to day machinations and responsibilities I believe that she has failed on a continuing basis. From communication, to engagement, the transparency, to timing, to respect for the athletes, to how the ticket office functions, to accessibility to constituents, to people management... all evidence I’ve seen shows that she’s failing at those basic responsibilities.

It’s not the decision making that I think means her bosses should be considering whether she’s fit for the role (which to be clear, doesn’t mean I agree with her decisions), but her ability to successfully manage the basics of the operation.

To me, thus letter is the first sign that maybe this is becoming a problem for her superiors. That maybe finally someone is noticing that there are problems with how she is managing operations. This is a fairly open, kind of mea culpa that has 100% not been her style throughout her tenure. This to me smells of a boss saying “you need to fix this not just internally, but publicly”.

Let’s hope that we see change out of this. Whether it’s a change on her, the department, or who is doing the job - a change.


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