(06-28-2020 11:21 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 10:09 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 04:40 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

why?

Because they aren’t of him.

Jesus was a Jew from the Levant, Judea, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc. MENA and W. Asians don't look much different than a lot of Europeans. Most depictions seem to show brown and eyes.

No matter the characteristics, the first images of him come about 300 years after his death. None of those people saw him. They aren’t pictures of his image. They are abstractions that have come to represent the idea of Jesus over the centuries.

(06-28-2020 02:42 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 11:21 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 10:09 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 04:40 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

why?

Because they aren’t of him.

Jesus was a Jew from the Levant, Judea, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc. MENA and W. Asians don't look much different than a lot of Europeans. Most depictions seem to show brown and eyes.

No matter the characteristics, the first images of him come about 300 years after his death. None of those people saw him. They aren’t pictures of his image. They are abstractions that have come to represent the idea of Jesus over the centuries.

The first images put on walls or canvas was most likely Coptics and Ethiopians, as best we know. Imagery is one of the best ways to spread the news, even today, in a world where dam near everyone was illiterate.

(06-28-2020 02:56 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  The first images put on walls or canvas was most likely Coptics and Ethiopians, as best we know. Imagery is one of the best ways to spread the news, even today, in a world where dam near everyone was illiterate.

That is 180 degrees opposite of what the Bible says. Creating images of Jesus is one of the worst possible ways to spread the gospel.

The NT teaches us how to spread the gospel to people whether they are literate or illiterate, and there is not one verse in the whole bible that says to create pictures or images, in fact it tell us specifically NOT to do those things.

The literacy factor plays no role in the modern churches that are covered in idols and images.

I think a lot of people just don't want to have to change their lifestyles to fit a Biblical Christian life, so they want nothing to do with it.

People are willing to believe in Jesus as long as they are able to live, worship and follow Jesus in the way that is easier and comfortable to them, as opposed to learning what God says about how to live, worship and follow Christ. If they seek out what God tells us about these things they may have to make too many changes in their life or give up things they don't want to give up for Him.

God is going to judge each of us based on what we understood, and how available His Word was to us in our lives. Some people openly admit they want to know as little as possible so they can claim ignorance when the time comes, but they don't realize He is going to hold them accountable if His Word was readily available to them and they wanted nothing to do with it.

If you live like we do in the most literal society ever, and at the peak of the information age with the most abundant access to His Word in human history, we will be held accountable for never bothering to seek it out.

We can't claim ignorance of what His Word says when we never bothered to seek it out and purposely avoided it at all costs.

Well this conversation took a turn.

I grew up evangelical so I get the natural aversion to icons Or imagery in general. As an adult, though, I’ve come to appreciate the Orthodox love of iconography. They aren’t praying to or worshipping the images. They’re simply guides to help spread and grow in the Faith. I do agree that if taken to far the use of icons can cross a line, but I really believe that their purpose is greatly misunderstood by western Protestantism.

Besides, St. Luke is traditionally considered to be the 1st iconographer. If it was good enough for him...

(06-28-2020 04:36 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  They aren’t praying to or worshipping the images.

Yes, they are and its actually quite common. Its beyond me that people will deny this. Catholics and a few others routinely pray to Mary and saints, and bowing and praying before idols of her is quite common. Even popes.




















"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." — Isaiah 42:8

How could anyone be so foolish to actually bow down in prayer to a statue of Mary, yet at the same time deny that they are worshipping her? God clearly command us in the first of the ten commandments NOT to make unto ourselves ANY graven images.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" —Exodus 20:4

Do the people need glasses? It says right there in black and white in Exodus 20:4 that we are NOT to make unto ourselves ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven! Mary is in heaven. We are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! Here's another shocker...

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." —Exodus 20:5

(06-28-2020 04:52 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 04:36 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  They aren’t praying to or worshipping the images.

Yes, they are and its actually quite common. Its beyond me that people will deny this. Catholics and a few others routinely pray to Mary and saints, and bowing and praying before idols of her is quite common. Even popes.




















"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." — Isaiah 42:8

Well, I’m not Catholic. I merely gave you an interpretation based on my own experiences with Orthodoxy. They are clear that icons are a guide to aid in prayer and worship. Actually praying to an icon would be idolatry. No disagrees with that.

(06-28-2020 05:10 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  Well, I’m not Catholic. I merely gave you an interpretation based on my own experiences with Orthodoxy. They are clear that icons are a guide to aid in prayer and worship. Actually praying to an icon would be idolatry. No disagrees with that.

I get that, and I realize you are not a Catholic. But interpretation really has nothing to do with this, they put up idols everywhere and their followers routinely bow to pray to them. That is why God commanded not to make them in the first place. If you put up idols and images in your places of worship, some people are going to start bowing and praying to them.

God takes this VERY seriously, so how in the world can we be so dismissive of it?

(06-28-2020 05:04 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  How could anyone be so foolish to actually bow down in prayer to a statue of Mary, yet at the same time deny that they are worshipping her? God clearly command us in the first of the ten commandments NOT to make unto ourselves ANY graven images.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" —Exodus 20:4

Do the people need glasses? It says right there in black and white in Exodus 20:4 that we are NOT to make unto ourselves ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven! Mary is in heaven. We are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! Here's another shocker...

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." —Exodus 20:5

Here’s my issue with this line of reasoning. In the Old Testament, God had not physically revealed himself. However, the the New Testament, God reveals himself to humanity through Jesus Christ, but God still demands that we don’t create any images of that revelation? This makes no sense. If Christ revealed himself in the modern age, would it be heretical to pull out your phone and take a picture of Christ? the apostles? Saints? Martyrs? Of course not. So why is it heretical that the ancients painted icons of these events?

(06-28-2020 05:16 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 05:04 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  How could anyone be so foolish to actually bow down in prayer to a statue of Mary, yet at the same time deny that they are worshipping her? God clearly command us in the first of the ten commandments NOT to make unto ourselves ANY graven images.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" —Exodus 20:4

Do the people need glasses? It says right there in black and white in Exodus 20:4 that we are NOT to make unto ourselves ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven! Mary is in heaven. We are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! Here's another shocker...

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." —Exodus 20:5

Here’s my issue with this line of reasoning. In the Old Testament, God had not physically revealed himself. However, the the New Testament, God reveals himself to humanity through Jesus Christ, but God still demands that we don’t create any images of that revelation? This makes no sense. If Christ revealed himself in the modern age, would it be heretical to pull out your phone and take a picture of Christ? the apostles? Saints? Martyrs? Of course not. So why is it heretical that the ancients painted icons of these events?

You are twisting things all around to try and avoid the point here. I'm not talking about a picture on your phone, I'm talking about idols in places of worship with people bowing and praying to them.

There is a MASSIVE difference between a pic on your phone and bowing and praying to idols in your church.

This is what I was talking about in the earlier post. Some people will just go to amazing lengths to miss the key issue here. No matter how bluntly and definitively God states it in the Bible some people just aren't going to accept it and find some way to rationalize it away. Its a very simple issue and God was very clear about it in the Bible.

This is not just another sin, this is one God made clear He has a very serious problem with.

(06-28-2020 05:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 05:16 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 05:04 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  How could anyone be so foolish to actually bow down in prayer to a statue of Mary, yet at the same time deny that they are worshipping her? God clearly command us in the first of the ten commandments NOT to make unto ourselves ANY graven images.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" —Exodus 20:4

Do the people need glasses? It says right there in black and white in Exodus 20:4 that we are NOT to make unto ourselves ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven! Mary is in heaven. We are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! Here's another shocker...

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." —Exodus 20:5

Here’s my issue with this line of reasoning. In the Old Testament, God had not physically revealed himself. However, the the New Testament, God reveals himself to humanity through Jesus Christ, but God still demands that we don’t create any images of that revelation? This makes no sense. If Christ revealed himself in the modern age, would it be heretical to pull out your phone and take a picture of Christ? the apostles? Saints? Martyrs? Of course not. So why is it heretical that the ancients painted icons of these events?

You are twisting things all around to try and avoid the point here. I'm not talking about a picture on your phone, I'm talking about idols in places of worship with people bowing and praying to them.

There is a MASSIVE difference between a pic on your phone and bowing and praying to idols in your church.

This is what I was talking about in the earlier post. Some people will just go to amazing lengths to avoid the key issue here. No matter how bluntly and definitively God states it in the Bible some people just aren't going to accept it and find some way to rationalize it away.

Ok, I’m not twisting or avoiding your point. I understand where you’re coming from. I simply disagree with you.

As I stated before, I don’t inherently view praying in the presence of icons to be idolatry. You do. I don’t think there’s going to be any movement from either of us on this.

We are both no wasting our time and I’m on leave with an expensive bourbon staring me in the face.

(06-28-2020 05:32 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  Ok, I’m not twisting or avoiding your point. I understand where you’re coming from. I simply disagree with you.

As I stated before, I don’t inherently view praying in the presence of icons to be idolatry. You do. I don’t think there’s going to be any movement from either of us on this.

We are both no wasting our time and I’m on leave with an expensive bourbon staring me in the face.

The issue is not how you or I see it, its how God sees it. And He made it as clear as can be countless times in the OT.

Its says WORD for WORD don't make any images of anything in heaven and don't bow yourself down before them. Its black and white.

If that is not clear enough then its simply not possible to communicate it to you. There is literally nothing He could have said or anyway He could have worded it that would have mattered.

Again this is how most Bible disagreement actually are at their core. It has nothing to do with the text or "interpretation", sometimes people just don't like what it says and won't accept it no matter what it says. I was guilty of this for many years myself. There are some things we just don't want to hear, so we can't hear them no matter how clearly they are stated. It cuts down through the flesh to the bone.

(06-28-2020 05:43 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 05:32 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  Ok, I’m not twisting or avoiding your point. I understand where you’re coming from. I simply disagree with you.

As I stated before, I don’t inherently view praying in the presence of icons to be idolatry. You do. I don’t think there’s going to be any movement from either of us on this.

We are both no wasting our time and I’m on leave with an expensive bourbon staring me in the face.

The issue is not how you or I see it, its how God sees it. And He made it as clear as can be countless times in the OT.

Its says WORD for WORD don't make any images of anything in heaven and don't bow yourself down before them. Its black and white.

If that is not clear enough then its simply not possible to communicate it to you. There is literally nothing He could have said or anyway He could have worded it that would have mattered.

Again this is how most Bible disagreement actually are at their core. It has nothing to do with the text or "interpretation", sometimes people just don't like what it says and won't accept it no matter what it says.

Aren’t you just confirming my post?

Since I’m apparently spending my fine bourbon induced evening in this God forsaken penal colony talking to you. Do you agree that the Holy Spirit worked through the Ecumenical Councils?

(06-28-2020 05:55 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  Aren’t you just confirming my post?

Since I’m apparently spending my fine bourbon induced evening in this God forsaken penal colony talking to you. Do you agree that the Holy Spirit worked through the Ecumenical Councils?

I'm not trying to upset you my friend, I'm just suing this as an example of how nearly impossible it can be fore scripture to communicate things to us sometimes.

The Holy Spirit works through men in all things that glorify His Kingdom, but He does not work were doctrines or practices contrary to His Word are created or enforced.

(06-28-2020 06:12 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 05:55 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  Aren’t you just confirming my post?

Since I’m apparently spending my fine bourbon induced evening in this God forsaken penal colony talking to you. Do you agree that the Holy Spirit worked through the Ecumenical Councils?

I'm not trying to upset you my friend, I'm just suing this as an example of how nearly impossible it can be fore scripture to communicate things to us sometimes.

The Holy Spirit works through men in all things that glorify His Kingdom, but He does not work were doctrines or practices contrary to His Word are created or enforced.

Is that a yes or no?

(06-28-2020 06:16 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 06:12 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 05:55 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  Aren’t you just confirming my post?

Since I’m apparently spending my fine bourbon induced evening in this God forsaken penal colony talking to you. Do you agree that the Holy Spirit worked through the Ecumenical Councils?

I'm not trying to upset you my friend, I'm just suing this as an example of how nearly impossible it can be fore scripture to communicate things to us sometimes.

The Holy Spirit works through men in all things that glorify His Kingdom, but He does not work were doctrines or practices contrary to His Word are created or enforced.

Is that a yes or no?

Its a yes and a no because both are true. He works through them on some things but that does not mean everything they did was divine. All men are still flawed, even with the Holy Spirit guiding them. We see that play out in almost every story in the Bible.

There is nothing in the world they could have done to change the 10 commandments or do a 180 on the whole bible and make it acceptable to have people bowing and praying before idols in churches.

(06-28-2020 06:26 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 06:16 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 06:12 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 05:55 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  Aren’t you just confirming my post?

Since I’m apparently spending my fine bourbon induced evening in this God forsaken penal colony talking to you. Do you agree that the Holy Spirit worked through the Ecumenical Councils?

I'm not trying to upset you my friend, I'm just suing this as an example of how nearly impossible it can be fore scripture to communicate things to us sometimes.

The Holy Spirit works through men in all things that glorify His Kingdom, but He does not work were doctrines or practices contrary to His Word are created or enforced.

Is that a yes or no?

Its a yes and a no because both are true. He works through them on some things but that does not make everything they did was divine. All men are still flawed, even with the Holy Spirit guiding them. We see that play out in almost every story in the Bible.

There is nothing in the world they could have done to change the 10 commandments or do a 180 on the whole bible and make it acceptable to have people bowing and praying before idols in churches.

I’ve been reading this board for years and for someone who holds themself out as the only authority on Christianity, you’re hedging. Take a position and own it. Even if I disagree, I can respect it, but I have no use for this type of response.

Here’s my point. All of mainstream Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) agree on the basic tenants of the faith. This is obviously a generalization, btw.

If mainstream Christianity agrees on this, then we must also agree that the Holy Spirit worked through them to establish divine doctrine. If you find the overwhelming majority of the original adherents to this doctrine to be heretical based on their use of icons (which you seem to do), then you are completely outside the mainstream of the faith.

This is fine and I respect your opinion. Just own it.

(06-28-2020 05:16 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 05:04 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  How could anyone be so foolish to actually bow down in prayer to a statue of Mary, yet at the same time deny that they are worshipping her? God clearly command us in the first of the ten commandments NOT to make unto ourselves ANY graven images.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" —Exodus 20:4

Do the people need glasses? It says right there in black and white in Exodus 20:4 that we are NOT to make unto ourselves ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven! Mary is in heaven. We are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! Here's another shocker...

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." —Exodus 20:5

Here’s my issue with this line of reasoning. In the Old Testament, God had not physically revealed himself. However, the the New Testament, God reveals himself to humanity through Jesus Christ, but God still demands that we don’t create any images of that revelation? This makes no sense. If Christ revealed himself in the modern age, would it be heretical to pull out your phone and take a picture of Christ? the apostles? Saints? Martyrs? Of course not. So why is it heretical that the ancients painted icons of these events?

You can't reason with Eric. It is his way or no way. The fact that Anti Christian Marxists are framing this flies totally over his head.

(06-28-2020 06:49 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  I’ve been reading this board for years and for someone who holds themself out as the only authority on Christianity, you’re hedging. Take a position and own it. Even if I disagree, I can respect it, but I have no use for this type of response.

Oh please, I have never pretended I was a "sole authority on Christianity" or an authority at all. Simply reading and studying the Bible does not make me a "sole authority", it just makes me someone who is actually reading and studying the Bible. If anyone should have no use for a response its me with that hyper defense nonsense.

Its not my fault Scripture says what its says on this, so don't attack me for what it says.

(06-28-2020 06:49 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  Here’s my point. All of mainstream Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) agree on the basic tenants of the faith. This is obviously a generalization, btw.

If mainstream Christianity agrees on this, then we must also agree that the Holy Spirit worked through them to establish divine doctrine. If you find the overwhelming majority of the original adherents to this doctrine to be heretical based on their use of icons (which you seem to do), then you are completely outside the mainstream of the faith.

This is fine and I respect your opinion. Just own it.

Divine Christian doctrine was established by the NT, not the Ecumenical Councils. The basic tents of Christian doctrine were well established centuries before the first council of Nicaea in the 4th century. We have the entire NT and all of the letters and writings of the early church fathers in the first few centuries of the church that confirm all of this for us.

Where you got the idea that those councils founded Christian Doctrine is beyond me. The Holy Spirit worked through those men to help clarify and solidify the 66 book canon of the Bible, which was already well established centuries earlier but the influence of gnostics and pagans were bringing in false books and heresies. The Holy Spirit did NOT create new doctrine that totally contradicted Biblical doctrines. That is absurd and NO that is not the view of mainstream Christianity outside of the RCC.

There was a point in the middle ages were "mainstream" Christianity taught that you could buy you relatives out of hell by giving money to the RCC (as well as a bunch of other very evil doctrines). Just because an idea or practice is "mainstream" at some point does not make it divine and of God. That is an incredibly blind and dangerous attitude about doctrine.

And none of this has anything to do with the fact that nothing any council says is going to change what the entire Bible says about people bowing and praying before idols in churches. You are getting so far away from that basic point now that we are almost totally changing the subject.