(06-26-2020 02:58 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(06-26-2020 02:47 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  It's only idolatry if you worship the statue.

That is not remotely true. The Bible teaches you can worship things and never bow down before them or ever say a prayer to them.

Simply loving money is the worship of Mammon according to God. That is idolatry.

The Bible is very clear about this, we should not be making images of Jesus, Angels or the Father and displaying them in churches. The Catholics do this and you can pull up thousands of pics of people bowing down and praying before statues and other images. Even popes will bow down before statues and pray at them and to them.

Respectfully, Eric, your opinion on this is misguided, and Captain Bearcat has the correct perspective on this question. I have never known a person to worship and actual statue or image in my life (well, maybe some do that for Dear leader ZerO), but I can imagine a few extremely ignorant folks might have from time to time in the past. If you disagree and suggest taking the Bible literally and as the only source of information on Christs's teachings, I would ask you: How does one know which books are supposed to be in the Bible? It has no divine Table of Contents (those were added by book publishers much later on) that self-references exactly which books belong and which don't (there were many that were considered for inclusion in what most call the modern version of the Bible, but the decision was factually definitely not made by referencing any direct passage that one can cite from Scripture. Further, never did Jesus Christ Himself say to His disciples to teach people only from these specific books, nor did he ever speak about Paul during His earthly ministry, nor did he say: 'if you want to follow me, be sure to buy my book,' nor did Jesus say anything about waiting around for someone named King James. Jesus did however direct His disciples to go forth by twos and teach people everything he had taught them, His Tradition, which was specifically unwritten, and involved actions, not mere words, and interactions and intercession with human beings, which he called His bride, His Church, which he built upon His Rock, who he specifically named and gave authority to decide on earthly matters when it came to His Church, and who He knew in advance was an imperfect man, who had even denied Him three times, and yet Jesus still entrusted this Man with the authority of His Church on Earth., and Jesus commanded whose sins you retain on Earth are retained in heaven, whose sins you forgive on Earth are forgiven in heaven. Jesus was never Himself a Christian, He was a Jew in his Earthly life. And Jesus never commanded not to make statues, he was concerned about worshipping them as gods, which I am not personally aware anyone who calls themselves a Christian does, (but perhaps there are some, as there are many who cite His words but then ignore them and follow churches that are not the one Jesus started, since they let them get out of doing things Jesus asked us to do to follow Him).

Yeah, I don't mean to turn this into another one of those threads. Jesus always allows for Free Will and Choice, and then allows the consequences to occur from those choices. God didn't make us robots, though He could have if He wanted to. He creates the ability to choose both for and against. He forgives and grants us grace, but grace itself, by Jesus' own description is specifically not a form of a "get out of Hell free" card, though many teat it as such. Jesus allows those who cannot read, and thus who have no use for a Bible, to still go to Heaven by following Him and the traditions He taught to His disciples, which He commanded to become His Church here on Earth. Now the only ones putting worshiping qualities into statues and images, seem to be folks like those who occupy CHOP/CHAZ/Whatever and who worship the burning down of our institutions to advance their godless Marxist cause, for that is who they worship. Anyway, If God did not want images to accompany the faithful in their journey, then Our lady would not have made her image appear on the cloak that today still hangs in the Cathedral in Guadalupe, and our Lord would not have allowed His own image to appear on the cloth that veronica herself used to wipe the face of Jesus on His way to Calvary. If things really were as you say, then that would not be so. No, it is not only permitted to have statues and images and icons of our Lord and the Saints, et cetera (there's no 'x' in that phrase)... in our Churches, it is imperative that we carry these images visually, lest our minds be easily turned away from the Truth of our salvation and to lesser things, like the band and the personality of the pastor, instead of the truth and tradition of Jesus' Church he left for us while we navigate This Mortal Coil. If you want to know what the Love of God really is, there is no better example than to look upon the image of our Lord Jesus Christ Crucified on the cross. Without the body of Jesus on it, it's just a couple of stick of wood, and many places that call themselves churches don't even have that as a reminder, though they do have expensive Sound Systems an d band instruments, which kind of misses the whole point, but as I've heard many a non-christian pastor say: "by the time of your third or fourth divorce, you can count on god's grace to blah, blah, blah." There's nothing Christian about divorce, since in the Beginning Jesus' own words say it was not so and doesn't exist. But then, too many ignore the words after purchasing a book, so that's why we have all these idiots in the streets burning, rioting and defacing historical statues. 78% of the rioters and blm-ers et cetera (there's no "x" in that phrase) didn't follow Jesus' command about keeping their families intact, or even keeping a family in the first place. It is no big surprise that they do what they do, as they listen to and follow those who make it up for themselves instead of following the Truth that Jesus commanded, and left us His own Church for us while we're here on this Earth. It's a darn slippery slope once you start messing with Jesus' Church, and that slope leads you directly to Antifa, Marxism and all the other stuff we're seeing today. I'll give a mulligan on one, maybe even two, but you know, I'd rather have Jesus' own Crucifix there to remind me that Love is Sacrificial, Love usually doesn't get its own way in this world, and Love leaves you with nothing material, yet Love is greater than all these. Prosperity gospels and divorce may sell, but they that do ain't following Jesus, and you can take that to the bank.

(06-26-2020 10:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Respectfully, Eric, your opinion on this is misguided, and Captain Bearcat has the correct perspective on this question. I have never known a person to worship and actual statue or image in my life (well, maybe some do that for Dear leader ZerO), but I can imagine a few extremely ignorant folks might have from time to time in the past. If you disagree and suggest taking the Bible literally and as the only source of information on Christs's teachings, I would ask you: How does one know which books are supposed to be in the Bible? It has no divine Table of Contents (those were added by book publishers much later on) that self-references exactly which books belong and which don't (there were many that were considered for inclusion in what most call the modern version of the Bible, but the decision was factually definitely not made by referencing any direct passage that one can cite from Scripture. Further, never did Jesus Christ Himself say to His disciples to teach people only from these specific books, nor did he ever speak about Paul during His earthly ministry, nor did he say: 'if you want to follow me, be sure to buy my book,' nor did Jesus say anything about waiting around for someone named King James.

Well first off you are just factually wrong on several things here. Anyone can pull up countless pictures and examples of Catholics (and other denominations) bowing and praying before statues, even popes themselves, so do not tell me that people do not do this. That is grossly dishonest and you are deceiving yourself on this badly. Its not an opinion, its a fact. You are welcome to your own opinions but not your own facts. If you want to argue that further I have no problem at all posing literally hundreds of pictures of supposed Christians bowing and praying before statues and other idols.

So don't DARE tell me they do not, because they absolutely do, and there are many Catholics here who left the RCC church but are still Christians and they can testify to it firsthand as well.

You also totally flushed the Word of God down the toilet and made pretty clear you are a catholic. Most catholics want as little to do with the Bible as possible because it is so dramatically opposed to catholic practices and tradition. HINT:that is why the reformation happened. People began to read the Bible and saw how opposed the RCC was to the NT.

You try to paint this false picture that we don't know what books were supposed to be in the Bible and that we don't know if our Bible today is what was meant to be the Bible.

The fact is we know EXACTLY what books the early church fathers considered to be Holy Scripture. WE KNOW FOR A FACT THE SAME 66 BOOKS IN OUR KJB ARE THE SAME 66 BOOKS THE CHURCH FATHERS SAW AS HOLY SCRIPTURE IN THE FIRST 2 CENTURIES OF THE CHURCH.

We know this for a fact because we have over 200 thousand letters from the first church fathers in the first few centuries of the church that all quoted these books, some even entire chapters and entire books in their letters.

This means not only do we know which books they considered to be holy scripture and which books were not, we also KNOW we have the same words in these books that they had and that our modern Bible has NOT changed the words or the books. You can deabte about the apocrypha and a couple of book included in the catholic bible, but it makes NO difference at all on NT doctrine or the 66 cannon that has been around since the first 2 centuries of the church.

Those are not opinions, they are FACTS. I realize that goes against everything you have been taught by the catholic church, but you are going to have to ask yourself what is your faith in, the traditions of men or the Word of God.

The RCC has gone through so many incarnations, changes and complete doctoral reworks that its just insanity to pretend they have held some special tradition and knowledge from the apostles. The church was founded in Jerusalem anyway, not Rome.

Unlike a single church that has changed and has so many reincarnations so many times over, the Word of God has NOT changed. We have the same words today the church fathers had. God himself is the author of the bible, that is what Jesus, that apostles and all the OT saints taught. His word is eternal, purified 7 times over and protected and kept by the Holy Ghost.

The simple fact is without the Bible you do not have a clue if the traditions and practices of your chruch are what the Apostles taught and Jesus intended.

That is why Jesus put the focus on the Word of God over the traditions of men.

(06-26-2020 10:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Further, never did Jesus Christ Himself say to His disciples to teach people only from these specific books, nor did he ever speak about Paul during His earthly ministry, nor did he say: 'if you want to follow me, be sure to buy my book,' nor did Jesus say anything about waiting around for someone named King James. Jesus did however direct His disciples to go forth by twos and teach people everything he had taught them, His Tradition, which was specifically unwritten, and involved actions, not mere words, and interactions and intercession with human beings, which he called His bride, His Church, which he built upon His Rock, who he specifically named and gave authority to decide on earthly matters when it came to His Church

WOW what a terribly, terribly anti-Bibical response and doctrine.

Ironically the pharisees of Jesus day also taught the same thing you are claiming here, that its traditions of men that we should hold to and not the Word of God, that Holy scripture cannot even be trusted, so we must trust in the doctrines and traditions of men.

Jesus specifically rebuked them for this false teaching and warned them of coming judgment on them for their rejection of the Word of God to hold to their traditions instead.


Mark 7

He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.

And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. ”



Matt 4:4
“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”



With all due respect your comments are 100% diametrically opposed to what Jesus said and what the Bible teaches.

Eric are you one of those who wants to tear down statues.

(06-26-2020 10:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Further, never did Jesus Christ Himself say to His disciples to teach people only from these specific books, nor did he ever speak about Paul during His earthly ministry,

The NT books were not yet written. What an amazingly disingenuous point to be making. Jesus had already told them they were going to be written and that the Holy Spirit would guide them just as he had guided all the OT saints and prophets who wrote the OT. But God had decreed them to be written AFTER the church age had already begun and AFTER the apostles had already founded churches all over region and Roman empire. He wanted them to be written directly to these churches about the real problems they were now dealing with.

I can certainly understand the need for catholics to reject Paul and all of Pauls epistles to the gentile churches. They are so dramatically opposed to catholic tradition.

Quote:nor did he ever speak about Paul during His earthly ministry,

That is a very deceptive attempt to pretend nothing Jesus said after the crucifixion really matters. And I KNOW you are not a dishonest person, but you have been deceived into these things by catholic tradition.

Jesus made quite clear in Acts that He hand chose Paul on the road to Damascus.

Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Acts 9:15

There are a TON of things Jesus did not reveal until AFTER his earthly ministry and the crucifixion. And its not an accident, its because His earthy ministry was not the church age, it was Him offering Himself to the Jews as their Messiah, which they rejected and crucified Him. Only AFTER these events did Jesus begin the church age and send the Gospel to the Gentiles across the whole earth. Before the crucifixion they had the opportunity to accept Him as Messiah and the Kingdom age would have begun. But they rejected it and the time of the gentiles (Church age) began instead.

These are not OPINIONS, they are simply what the Bible says word for word.

You clearly reject the Word of God for the traditions of men. And i know you are a true believer with a pure heart. Your error comes from catholic tradition, not the Bible.

(06-27-2020 07:30 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Eric are you one of those who wants to tear down statues.

lol

I know right

I don't agree with statues and idols in churches, but I also don't agree with a mob vandalizing and destroying them like animals.

Good Owl doesn't disagree about the idolatry issue because of what the Bible says, he disagrees because of catholic tradition. The Bible is very clear about this issue, as some of the other Christians here have said as well.

13% of the population, 90 % of the bitchin and complainin. At lease 31% of the 13%.

Gfy seems appropriate

I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

Incredible. Seriously. And these people, these absolutely crazy, delusional, robots, get to vote.

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

Let us know if it does bother you, ok. Because that really really matters.

(06-27-2020 05:28 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

Let us know if it does bother you, ok. Because that really really matters.

Will do.

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

If only more people had this attitude.

(06-27-2020 07:40 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

If only more people had this attitude.

I try to maintain it. I’m no longer what I would consider a libertarian, but I still try to stay away from the authoritarian sentiment that comes with being into more mainstream politics.

(06-27-2020 07:40 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

If only more people had this attitude.

That's the whole problem. If it not offensive to me the it's ok. Well how about frick yourself and mind your own business.

I hate red cars but its ok with me if you have one.

Lol. That's good because if you didnt frick you. You dont decide.

(06-27-2020 08:14 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 07:40 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

If only more people had this attitude.

That's the whole problem. If it not offensive to me the it's ok. Well how about frick yourself and mind your own business.

I hate red cars but its ok with me if you have one.

Lol. That's good because if you didnt frick you. You dont decide.

I agree completely. Being offended is not a basis for policy making. Feeling are far too fluid and varied create a standard from them them.

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

why?

(06-28-2020 04:40 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

why?

Because they aren’t of him.

(06-28-2020 10:09 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 04:40 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

why?

Because they aren’t of him.

Jesus was a Jew from the Levant, Judea, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc. MENA and W. Asians don't look much different than a lot of Europeans. Most depictions seem to show brown and eyes.

(06-28-2020 10:09 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(06-28-2020 04:40 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(06-27-2020 05:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I don’t know if it is idol worship or not, but I think it’s pretty silly to have these depictions, but keep them up if you want. It doesn’t bother me.

why?

Because they aren’t of him.

Statues, pillars and other depictions of kings, priests or false gods were a huge issue in ancient Israel. Corrupt evil kings would rise to power in the northern and southern kingdoms and set up these statues and idols all across the land and on the high places. Time and time again God would specifically call out their desecration and blasphemies and would raise up a man of God to "drain the swamp" but putting down the corrupt king leaders and specifically taking down all the idols, statues and pillars they had set up all across the land. They not only took them down they were to totally destroy them or grind them into powder. This whole story and process repeats itself over and over and over again in the OT kingdom age. God took special offense to these images and idols and made that very clear.



Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth Duet 5:8

Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth Duet 4:16-18

Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger Duet 4



I think most Christians simply have not studied the OT much and just have no idea about how this was such a big issue in the OT Kingdom age, how much God hates these things, and how particular a desecration it is to set them up in place or worship. It also causes some to bow down and pray to them. Sometimes even popes and priests.

If pastors and leaders would just read their Bible a little more, they would know not to desecrate their churches with these or cause one single person to bow down before one.

This is a perfect example of how the issue concerning most disagreements over scripture is not because of the scripture.

No matter how plainly and how definitively God states something, there are those who simple refuse to accept it. So no matter how definitively its stated, its meaningless because it doesn't mean what it says.

That is actually what happens in most cases when people can't agree on a biblical issue. Its not because of whats written, its because they refuse to accept what is written. So they start the spinning and say I don't agree with your "interpretation". That is just code for them rejecting a plainly declarative, definitive statement in the text.