(12-13-2017 09:33 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-11-2017 12:32 PM)miko33 Wrote:  ...feel that it is justified to kill people in the name of said religion...IMHO, that religion should be invalidated in any sane person's mind. I'm not saying that it should be outlawed in the U.S.; however, I think it's sane to call it out for what it really is. IMHO, Islam is in reality a godless cult run by men for the sole purpose of furthering the will of the men in charge of the various denominations within Islam.
I get that the majority of Muslims are probably peaceful people. But when 40%, 30% or even 20% of the people who believe in the religion believes that it is right in the eyes of God to kill in his name - there is a fundamental problem with the religion itself. This sh!t was typical back in the 1400s and earlier. Not today. Islam has way too many artifacts from a bygone era where we should know better. Sadly, the truly pathetic part is that Muslims in the middle ages were MUCH more tolerant and believers in propagating science than the idiots in the ME are today. That is a major problem for today's Muslims to grapple with.

Well, like it or not, a large part of the problem is that our attempts to westernize the Middle East drives many of them into the radical camp. Muslims were a problem for Europe until around 1500. Dias and da Gama found a way around Africa to India, and suddenly the overland trade routes became irrelevant, and we didn't hear much from them for about 400 years. Then we found oil there, and they became economically relevant again. So we started trying to micromanage their culture--for their own good, of course. And now they are reacting.

We build a school in Afghanistan, and for the first time boys and girls go ton school together. And 80% of them love. Problem is, the other 20% are down at the al-Qaeda/ISIS/terrorist flavor of the month recruiting office..

Leave them alone, and thy will leave us alone. Mess with them, and they mess with us. It's not rocket science.

Empower moderate Muslims to modernize at their own pace and it will happen.

XACLY! agree with that 20,000,000,000$%

all that was req'd was to leave 'em in their form of stone age and simply pay the toll tax.....there were so many different ways to let that one take shape.....

now, that region has become a problem by 'design'.....

human evolution.....it's a pickle at times.....we're simply witnesses of such in this day.....

(12-13-2017 10:29 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 09:57 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 09:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 09:33 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Leave them alone, and they will leave us alone.

That is not what the Koran says.

Koran also forbids suicide, so..... Like someone else mentioned a lot of this stuff is cultural, not religious. Folks everywhere have used their view of a religion to shape culture for eons. I don't even think the hijab is mandated by the Koran.

you nailed the keyword.....too many get lost in an attempt to translate to thine self.....

hmmmmmmm......I have no clue why I'm an atheist,,,, /sarc

(12-13-2017 11:00 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 08:42 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 09:13 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Liberals can't explain their love of Islam.

Maybe, but I can.

It’s a minority group, therefore it’s an oppressed group, and thus it's not bad.

It's a group of over 1 billion. Hardly a minority by any stretch of the imaginative.

I think the liberals so called "love" of Islam comes from a little known phrase called "freedom of religion".

Remember that phrase?

1 billion out of 7 - minotiry
only religion running around killing innocent civilians in the name of God - minority

you really don't grasp the First Amendment very well.

(12-13-2017 09:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 09:33 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Leave them alone, and they will leave us alone.

That is not what the Koran says.

which can only lend to ____________ (you know the answer)

(12-13-2017 11:00 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's a group of over 1 billion. Hardly a minority by any stretch of the imaginative.

Re-calibrate your imagination. Islam is only 1% of Americans and is perfectly classifiable as a "minority" group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_t...ted_States

(12-13-2017 11:00 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think the liberals so called "love" of Islam comes from a little known phrase called "freedom of religion".

When the issue is physical harm to another, religious liberty is no defense.

(12-13-2017 11:00 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Remember that phrase?

I do, for sure. But liberals hate religion because they hate having competition to their idea of being a savior.....

(12-13-2017 11:15 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 11:00 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's a group of over 1 billion. Hardly a minority by any stretch of the imaginative.

Re-calibrate your imagination. Islam is only 1% of Americans and is perfectly classifiable as a "minority" group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_t...ted_States

(12-13-2017 11:00 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  I think the liberals so called "love" of Islam comes from a little known phrase called "freedom of religion".

When the issue is physical harm to another, religious liberty is no defense.

(12-13-2017 11:00 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Remember that phrase?

I do, for sure. But liberals hate religion because they hate having competition to their idea of being a savior.....

The religion of Islam does not preach physical harm to another. That's just a myth that the alt. right adheres to in order to justify getting rid of Muslims.

(12-13-2017 11:17 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The religion of Islam does not preach physical harm to another. That's just a myth that the alt. right adheres to in order to justify getting rid of Muslims.

You don't want to go down this path.

(12-13-2017 09:48 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 09:33 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Leave them alone, and they will leave us alone.

That is not what the Koran says.

But it was what they did when we ignored them. Ignore them again, and it's what they will do again.

Don't be in their faces telling their women to take off their veils, and they won't blow up our buildings. Sounds a fair trade to me.

(12-13-2017 11:33 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Don't be in their faces telling their women to take off their veils, and they won't blow up our buildings. Sounds a fair trade to me.

Well, I disagree.

I suspect the root cause of Islamic terroristism is radical Islam, even if everybody in Washington is terrified to say it. Now I don't think we have to bomb them back to the stone age, but this idea that Islam will retreat to their desert hideouts and ignore the West is irrational and illogical (with all due respect.)

(12-13-2017 11:51 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 11:33 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Don't be in their faces telling their women to take off their veils, and they won't blow up our buildings. Sounds a fair trade to me.

Well, I disagree.

I suspect the root cause of Islamic terroristism is radical Islam, even if everybody in Washington is terrified to say it. Now I don't think we have to bomb them back to the stone age, but this idea that Islam will retreat to their desert hideouts and ignore the West is irrational and illogical (with all due respect.)

I'm in the same camp. The radicals want us dead whether we are in their face or not.

(12-13-2017 11:20 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 11:17 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  The religion of Islam does not preach physical harm to another. That's just a myth that the alt. right adheres to in order to justify getting rid of Muslims.

You don't want to go down this path.

I studies the Koran in college. I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about.

(12-11-2017 12:56 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(12-11-2017 12:43 PM)tennis2k4 Wrote:  There are over 1.8 billion muslims so you believe at your 20% figure that 360 million muslims believe that it is right to kill in the name of allah, you are ******* insane.

Well, not saying there are that many that actually attempt to act on the killing, but I suspect there are that many that are "okay" with it when it occurs.....

LGBT folks might say the same thing about Christians, using your logic. Would you consider Franklin Graham, Tony Perkins, Roy Moore, etc. to be equivalent to a Muslim that is "okay" with killing people because they're Gay? They all support criminalization.

If not, why?

I wouldn't go as far as the OP regarding any religious group, including Christians or Muslims. There are good and bad. And there are people who whip up hatred of the 'other' in both religions and both have followers that 'excuse' outrageous abuses. But that doesn't mean the whole group or religion is bad, but rather that there are some people who are bad, some interpretations (of the Koran, of the Bible, of the Gita, etc.) that are bad, and that there are some followers who are bad.

Yes, this is whataboutism. But I figured I'd rather just throw this in here instead of starting a separate thread.

Why not make the discussion about ALL religious extremists who advocate violence and incarceration of those that don't follow their particular religious tenets?

Also, do you actually know any Muslims?

(12-13-2017 12:45 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I studies the Koran in college. I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about.

"How dare the lesser have an opinion about what is best. I have studied this at length in books at college!" / puffs on pipe, adjusts tweed jacket

I take Islam and the Koran by it's word that Islam is inherently political and sharia and violent jihad is integral to their theology.

(12-13-2017 12:51 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 12:45 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I studies the Koran in college. I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about.

"How dare the lesser have an opinion about what is best. I have studied this at length in books at college!" / puffs on pipe, adjusts tweed jacket

I take Islam and the Koran by it's word that Islam is inherently political and sharia and violent jihad is integral to their theology.

I don't own a tweed jacket.

(12-13-2017 12:54 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 12:51 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 12:45 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I studies the Koran in college. I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about.

"How dare the lesser have an opinion about what is best. I have studied this at length in books at college!" / puffs on pipe, adjusts tweed jacket

I take Islam and the Koran by it's word that Islam is inherently political and sharia and violent jihad is integral to their theology.

I don't own a tweed jacket.

You must be a poor academic then......

(12-13-2017 12:51 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 12:45 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I studies the Koran in college. I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about.

"How dare the lesser have an opinion about what is best. I have studied this at length in books at college!" / puffs on pipe, adjusts tweed jacket

I take Islam and the Koran by it's word that Islam is inherently political and sharia and violent jihad is integral to their theology.

Are you talking about Hadith or the Koran? Just curious as to how you came up with that view. Fair warning..cherrypick at your own risk, I could do that too with the Bible.

Remember, Hadith, which is where much (certainly not all) of the bad stuff in Islam comes from are the 'interpretations' of the Koran. Some believe them to be divinely inspired, but they're not part of the Koran. The distinction is that the Hadith are not in a single collection and some are accepted by some and not by others. So, if you're quoting a particular Hadith, its more instructive to ensure that you know what kind of Hadith is it, whether it is generally recognized, and who really supports its relevance.

The difference between the formation of Islam and Christianity was that the Christians didn't employ their religion in an attempt to take political power for the first 5 or so centuries of their existence, whereas Islam did so from its inception.

That being said, since then, BOTH have been frequently very concerned with political matters and BOTH have been frequently invoked by their adherents to justify violence and naked political grabs.

(12-13-2017 01:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  That being said, since then, BOTH have been frequently very concerned with political matters and BOTH have been frequently invoked by their adherents to justify violence and naked political grabs.

Can you point out some of these 'frequent' justifications of violence by Christians? That's not really a challenge because I suspect you know what I'm getting at.

We're talking about the 21st century... not the 17th or earlier. Comparing what happened last week to what happened 30 or 75 or 300 years ago isn't equal.

Even at the height of the abortion protests, comparing the violence there to what we've seen every year for the past 20+ is not remotely close.

It's this continued false equivalency that keeps being repeated, especially by 'anti-religion' people that deflects from the message.

I'm perfectly fine with applying the same rules to all religions... but the CURRENT issue that needs to be addressed GLOBALLY is radical Islam. Deflecting from this fact only diffuses the issue and thus it's strength.

(12-13-2017 01:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Remember, Hadith, which is where much (certainly not all) of the bad stuff in Islam comes from are the 'interpretations' of the Koran. Some believe them to be divinely inspired, but they're not part of the Koran. The distinction is that the Hadith are not in a single collection and some are accepted by some and not by others. So, if you're quoting a particular Hadith, its more instructive to ensure that you know what kind of Hadith is it, whether it is generally recognized, and who really supports its relevance.

Your conclusion that Islam is non-violent is false because you've artificially limited the terms to only Muslims who don't commit violent acts. The left lecture's that there is no inherent, Koran or Hadith violence in Islam but that argument is unpersuasive because it’s a logical fallacy that goes like this:

Poster One: No Muslim would commit violence based on the Koran or a Hadith.
Poster Two: Abdul just did it. Said he was a true Muslim inspired by the Koran and the Hadiths
Poster One: Well, then, Abdul is not a TRUE Muslim.

See, by throwing the violence of Abdul out of the group, your are arbitrarily limiting the pool of True Muslims to “people who don’t do such a thing” which makes your conclusion self-fulfilling.

(12-13-2017 01:11 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  That being said, since then, BOTH have been frequently very concerned with political matters and BOTH have been frequently invoked by their adherents to justify violence and naked political grabs.

Can you point out some of these 'frequent' justifications of violence by Christians? That's not really a challenge because I suspect you know what I'm getting at.

We're talking about the 21st century... not the 17th or earlier. Comparing what happened last week to what happened 30 or 75 or 300 years ago isn't equal.

Even at the height of the abortion protests, comparing the violence there to what we've seen every year for the past 20+ is not remotely close.

It's this continued false equivalency that keeps being repeated, especially by 'anti-religion' people that deflects from the message.

I'm perfectly fine with applying the same rules to all religions... but the CURRENT issue that needs to be addressed GLOBALLY is radical Islam. Deflecting from this fact only diffuses the issue and thus it's strength.

Northern Ireland, Lords Resistance Army, Samuel Doe and the others in Liberia, Eric Rudolph, the Klan uses Christianity to justify its actions, the National Liberation Group of Tripura/India, Maronite militias in Lebanon, Charles Barbee, Robert Berry, Jay Merelle, Paul Hill, Michael Griffin, Scott Roeder, James Kopp.....I could go on for days.

For me, the CURRENT issue is the violence and the advocacy of it, regardless of who does it. Trying to blame Islam while ignoring Christianity's role in it is a deflection from my viewpoint.

(12-13-2017 01:34 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(12-13-2017 01:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Remember, Hadith, which is where much (certainly not all) of the bad stuff in Islam comes from are the 'interpretations' of the Koran. Some believe them to be divinely inspired, but they're not part of the Koran. The distinction is that the Hadith are not in a single collection and some are accepted by some and not by others. So, if you're quoting a particular Hadith, its more instructive to ensure that you know what kind of Hadith is it, whether it is generally recognized, and who really supports its relevance.

Your conclusion that Islam is non-violent is false because you've artificially limited the terms to only Muslims who don't commit violent acts. The left lecture's that there is no inherent, Koran or Hadith violence in Islam but that argument is unpersuasive because it’s a logical fallacy that goes like this:

Poster One: No Muslim would commit violence based on the Koran or a Hadith.
Poster Two: Abdul just did it. Said he was a true Muslim inspired by the Koran and the Hadiths
Poster One: Well, then, Abdul is not a TRUE Muslim.

See, by throwing the violence of Abdul out of the group, your are arbitrarily limiting the pool of True Muslims to “people who don’t do such a thing” which makes your conclusion self-fulfilling.

The Klan invokes Christianity to justify their views. Would you be okay if the rest of the world simply looked at Klan and Klan inspired violence and painted all Christianity and all Christianity as the equivalent of Klansmen, even ignoring the protestations of Christians against it?