Claw
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 11:37 AM)cb4029 Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:35 AM)Claw Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:31 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:30 AM)Claw Wrote: (07-18-2017 10:23 AM)Paul M Wrote: Charge a crime before confiscating. Convict and keep it. Lose, give it back. Jury trials only.
More theft by the government than law enforcement going on.
That is too simplistic.
Property requires maintenance and its value is not static with time.
Let's say they seize your house for a year. Are they going to water, mow, winterize, repair storm damages, insure it, pay the mortgage?
Maybe they seize a farm with livestock. What then?
Or maybe no livestock, but you can't farm it. The loss of income alone could be the end of it.
Even a car loses a large amount of value in just a year.
Now you're just being redundant.
Edit: I see you deleted the duplicate post. Never mind...
Like to hear myself talk
First true statement you've made on this board.
Second.
I admitted that once before.
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07-18-2017 11:40 AM |
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john01992
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 11:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:21 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: I'm pretty sure the law already requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Ideally, all any good defense attorney has to do is introduce and prove reasonable doubt in their case to persuade a jury to either acquit or at the least create a hung jury.
Not to seize assets, it doesn't.
And getting them back if you are found not guilty is not a straightforward or certain proposition.
congratz on 50K
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07-18-2017 11:42 AM |
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fsquid
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 11:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:21 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: I'm pretty sure the law already requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Ideally, all any good defense attorney has to do is introduce and prove reasonable doubt in their case to persuade a jury to either acquit or at the least create a hung jury.
Not to seize assets, it doesn't.
And getting them back if you are found not guilty is not a straightforward or certain proposition.
And that is why I don't support it unless you do it after conviction.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using CSNbbs mobile app
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07-18-2017 11:57 AM |
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Owl 69/70/75
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 11:57 AM)fsquid Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:21 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: I'm pretty sure the law already requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Ideally, all any good defense attorney has to do is introduce and prove reasonable doubt in their case to persuade a jury to either acquit or at the least create a hung jury.
Not to seize assets, it doesn't.
And getting them back if you are found not guilty is not a straightforward or certain proposition.
And that is why I don't support it unless you do it after conviction.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using CSNbbs mobile app
I'm okay with it after conviction. Not before.
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07-18-2017 12:20 PM |
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TigerBlue4Ever
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 12:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:57 AM)fsquid Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:21 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: I'm pretty sure the law already requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Ideally, all any good defense attorney has to do is introduce and prove reasonable doubt in their case to persuade a jury to either acquit or at the least create a hung jury.
Not to seize assets, it doesn't.
And getting them back if you are found not guilty is not a straightforward or certain proposition.
And that is why I don't support it unless you do it after conviction.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using CSNbbs mobile app
I'm okay with it after conviction. Not before.
I know it can take years and large sums of money to get seized property back. So you guys are starting to bring me around but I still hold that criminals shouldn't profit off their crimes and there needs to be some way to address that. How do you seize cash that's likely already disposed of after conviction though?
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07-18-2017 12:33 PM |
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rath v2.0
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
Large sums of cash being confiscated with no associated crime goes back to the 1986 Money Laundering Control Act and then in the 1990's when law enforcement switched tactics to the Proceeds Approach to interdict the flow of $$, halt money laundering and to impact enterprise crimes.
People who are stopped for a traffic ticket and who have a large sum of cash on them would do well to have some way of tracking the legitimate source of the funds (bank withdrawal, just sold something, payment for services, gift, etc). With the bank reporting laws now, any transactional sum over $10k is documented up the line. When large sums are found on folks, its almost always $$ that is obtained illegally, is being used for an illegal venture, or there is an ongoing attempt to circumvent tax laws and reporting. I suppose there are the odd stories of the old guy who has saved money in a coffee can for 40 years but those are not likely the norm.
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07-18-2017 01:13 PM |
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Lord Stanley
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 01:13 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote: People who are stopped for a traffic ticket and who have a large sum of cash on them would do well to have some way of tracking the legitimate source of the funds (bank withdrawal, just sold something, payment for services, gift, etc). With the bank reporting laws now, any transactional sum over $10k is documented up the line. When large sums are found on folks, its almost always $$ that is obtained illegally, is being used for an illegal venture, or there is an ongoing attempt to circumvent tax laws and reporting. I suppose there are the odd stories of the old guy who has saved money in a coffee can for 40 years but those are not likely the norm.
Your example is like saying all women who wear short skirts at night are prostitutes and they should have some documentation proving that they are wearing the skirt for legitimate business reasons.
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07-18-2017 01:57 PM |
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rath v2.0
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
Same reason that if you deposit $10k or more in your bank that it is a great idea to have some way of tracking it as coming from a legitimate or taxable source.
The IRS requires the bank to file a Form 8300 on your deposit (or even a series of deposits exceeding $10K). Bank Secrecy Act has a whole volume of requirements for them to follow. Not saying I like it, just that this has been the way it is by a series of statutes for a long time.
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 02:10 PM by rath v2.0.)
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07-18-2017 02:09 PM |
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Lord Stanley
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 02:09 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote: Same reason that if you deposit $10k or more in your bank that it is a great idea to have some way of tracking it as coming from a legitimate or taxable source.
I understand that. That is a great idea. No argument there, seriously.
But it remains legal to have over $10,000 on your person even without a way of tracking it as coming from a legitimate or taxable source and currently the government is finding way too many reasons to take that money.
People are innocent until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, in a court of law, maybe even judged by a jury of their peers should they be so lucky. Even people with large sums of money on their person.
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07-18-2017 02:19 PM |
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rath v2.0
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
I did a poor way of explaining my point...I agree with you...but the statutes I mentioned tend to put the onus on the person carrying the cash to establish its legitimacy. Seems like a prime topic for judicial review but I have not looked to see the views of the Supremes on the topic.
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07-18-2017 02:31 PM |
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ODUsmitty
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 12:33 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: (07-18-2017 12:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I'm okay with it after conviction. Not before.
I know it can take years and large sums of money to get seized property back. So you guys are starting to bring me around but I still hold that criminals shouldn't profit off their crimes and there needs to be some way to address that. How do you seize cash that's likely already disposed of after conviction though?
After conviction, it is easy. Either make the illegally-gained profits available or we start harvesting organs for sale, starting with the redundant ones, until the PROVEN profits of the convicted activity are paid back.
Also, a compliment to TigerBlue. It is rare around here to see someone engage in a discussion, listen to an alternate point of view, and actually indicate that the alternate point of view may be correct. +2
(This post was last modified: 07-18-2017 02:58 PM by ODUsmitty.)
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07-18-2017 02:55 PM |
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olliebaba
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
are you starting to see why I believe if you give them even an inch they will try to stretch that into a mile?
[/quote]
For once I agree with you. That's how the government works and it does it in the entitlement business too. That's why there's so many on welfare.
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07-18-2017 03:00 PM |
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Paul M
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 11:13 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:04 AM)john01992 Wrote: (07-18-2017 10:59 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: (07-18-2017 10:49 AM)john01992 Wrote: (07-18-2017 10:44 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: "on its face I agree with the above statement", "No criminal should be allowed to keep the proceeds of their crime."
but that's not how it works. this is a literal quote by a law enforcement official defending it's use "we don't have to find the person is guilty just the money."
the money is "guilty" if a drug sniffing dog calls it dirty. cash out your entire bank account, go buy a pizza, get one bill back in change that was used to snort coke...all that money can not only be seized, but has enough "evidence" to beat any legal attempt you use to try and get it back
At the risk of being repetitive, I agree with the basic premise that criminals should not have the ability to enrich themselves off their crimes while being concerned - and aware - that abuses can and do happen. I'm not sure if I'm poorly communicating my opinion or if you are hellbent on reading something into it that simply doesn't exist.
I think your position assumes that there are NO honest LEO's and that NONE of them can be trusted to do the right thing or even that the majority of LEO's and their agencies are inherently corrupt and that is the motivation behind all seizures. I strongly disagree with your position. Like you, I have a right to my opinion. I can respect your right to your own opinion even while possibly thinking it's stupid as hell. And FTR I don't think your opinion on this is stupid as hell. I get your point, unsurprisingly you don't seem to accept mine
there are good LEOs. But how many bad LEOs are acceptable? you are not gonna have zero. what will you settle for? It's not that I don't see your point, I'm just trying to convince you that mine is correct. and I'm doing that by asking you where you will draw the line on abuses and wonder if after you have done that, is that something you are still willing to stomach?
There's the rub. I'd hate to see even one innocent person adversely impacted by this but at the same time would hate to think that my local drug dealer is living better than myself off his ill-gotten profits, especially if he's sold some heroin to a local kid who dies from an overdose or even just provided the vehicle by which one person has driven him/herself into a wall with disastrous consequences.
It's a sticky situation no doubt. I guess I've retained a little of my naivete or idealism because I look for the good in people while sometimes not being cognizant of the bad that's staring me in the face.
Convict the drug dealer of his crimes and take all his ill gotten booty. Don't think anyones arguing otherwise. The "rub" is they are taking property from people without proving any crime.
No innocent person would be adversely affected if proof of a crime had to be shown before the confiscation.
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07-18-2017 03:27 PM |
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58-56
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 10:46 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: (07-18-2017 10:24 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote: Quote:Joseph Rivers was hoping to hit it big. According to the Albuquerque Journal, the aspiring businessman from just outside of Detroit had pulled together $16,000 in seed money to fulfill a lifetime dream of starting a music video company. Last month, Rivers took the first step in that voyage, saying goodbye to the family and friends who had supported him at home and boarding an Amtrak train headed for Los Angeles.
He never made it. From the Albuquerque Journal:
A DEA agent boarded the train at the Albuquerque Amtrak station and began asking various passengers, including Rivers, where they were going and why. When Rivers replied that he was headed to LA to make a music video, the agent asked to search his bags. Rivers complied.
Quote:The agents found nothing in Rivers's belongings that indicated that he was involved with the drug trade: no drugs, no guns. They didn't arrest him or charge him with a crime. But they took his cash anyway, every last cent, under the authority of the Justice Department's civil asset forfeiture program.
This is wrong.
No question that's wrong.
No one's disturbed by the bolded part?
Last time I had that experience, the train was headed from Timisoara to Bucharest, and the agent was from Ceausescu's Securitate. Bastard shook me down for three packs of marlies.
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07-18-2017 03:53 PM |
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TigerBlue4Ever
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 02:55 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote: (07-18-2017 12:33 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: (07-18-2017 12:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I'm okay with it after conviction. Not before.
I know it can take years and large sums of money to get seized property back. So you guys are starting to bring me around but I still hold that criminals shouldn't profit off their crimes and there needs to be some way to address that. How do you seize cash that's likely already disposed of after conviction though?
After conviction, it is easy. Either make the illegally-gained profits available or we start harvesting organs for sale, starting with the redundant ones, until the PROVEN profits of the convicted activity are paid back.
Also, a compliment to TigerBlue. It is rare around here to see someone engage in a discussion, listen to an alternate point of view, and actually indicate that the alternate point of view may be correct. +2
Well thank you sir.
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07-18-2017 05:57 PM |
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TigerBlue4Ever
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 03:53 PM)58-56 Wrote: (07-18-2017 10:46 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: (07-18-2017 10:24 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote: Quote:Joseph Rivers was hoping to hit it big. According to the Albuquerque Journal, the aspiring businessman from just outside of Detroit had pulled together $16,000 in seed money to fulfill a lifetime dream of starting a music video company. Last month, Rivers took the first step in that voyage, saying goodbye to the family and friends who had supported him at home and boarding an Amtrak train headed for Los Angeles.
He never made it. From the Albuquerque Journal:
A DEA agent boarded the train at the Albuquerque Amtrak station and began asking various passengers, including Rivers, where they were going and why. When Rivers replied that he was headed to LA to make a music video, the agent asked to search his bags. Rivers complied.
Quote:The agents found nothing in Rivers's belongings that indicated that he was involved with the drug trade: no drugs, no guns. They didn't arrest him or charge him with a crime. But they took his cash anyway, every last cent, under the authority of the Justice Department's civil asset forfeiture program.
This is wrong.
No question that's wrong.
No one's disturbed by the bolded part?
Last time I had that experience, the train was headed from Timisoara to Bucharest, and the agent was from Ceausescu's Securitate. Bastard shook me down for three packs of marlies.
It does reek of communist Russia or Nazi Germany.
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07-18-2017 05:59 PM |
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HeartOfDixie
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
It's not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water.
We need the help of these laws. What we need are clearer laws and better administrative guidelines.
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07-18-2017 06:03 PM |
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john01992
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 12:33 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: (07-18-2017 12:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:57 AM)fsquid Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (07-18-2017 11:21 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote: I'm pretty sure the law already requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Ideally, all any good defense attorney has to do is introduce and prove reasonable doubt in their case to persuade a jury to either acquit or at the least create a hung jury.
Not to seize assets, it doesn't.
And getting them back if you are found not guilty is not a straightforward or certain proposition.
And that is why I don't support it unless you do it after conviction.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using CSNbbs mobile app
I'm okay with it after conviction. Not before.
I know it can take years and large sums of money to get seized property back. So you guys are starting to bring me around but I still hold that criminals shouldn't profit off their crimes and there needs to be some way to address that. How do you seize cash that's likely already disposed of after conviction though?
for the record I would open to it continuing to remain legal after conviction, I only see minor issues with that albeit still issues.
but correct me if I'm wrong: how big of a factor does CAF play in convicts losing the money they gained via said crime? how much of it comes from restitution and/or plea bargains? i thought the very premise of CAF was to attack the orgainzations law enforcement can't get a conviction on?
it's a given that if you get caught you will lose your gains: but is CAF really what makes that statement hold true?
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07-18-2017 06:08 PM |
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cb4029
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
I give money to my drug dealer because I want them to have it.
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07-18-2017 06:20 PM |
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fsquid
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RE: Sessions wants police to steal more money.
(07-18-2017 06:03 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote: It's not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bath water.
We need the help of these laws. What we need are clearer laws and better administrative guidelines.
bull**** throw the baby out and make a new one.
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07-18-2017 08:09 PM |
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