(04-20-2017 03:27 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 01:06 PM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 11:43 AM)cpawfan Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 07:08 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Cincinnati has much to be proud of from the rebirth of the Riverfront (Banks) to OTR to Uptown. That big white elephant that resides on prime riverfront property can't be counted among the points of pride.

What has been built this century looks great but were the decisions strategic? It doesn't appear to be the case. The city has an outdated, undersized convention center; no domed stadium or quality indoor venue capable of augmenting convention capacity and no major league winter sports to offset the cost of a state of the art arena. So is this the Nederlander's last gasp before throwing in the towel and selling the real estate to a hotel or condo developer? One has to wonder. I've seen no indication that the NBA or NHL will be riding into town to save the day either.

Somewhat related, I would even argue that the casino represents a misuse of a fine parcel of land that, if developed as a new sports/music venue, would have further accelerated the growth of Pendleton/OTR dining, hotels, housing and entertainment.

Indianapolis can't touch Cincinnati for it's scenic setting, character, charm and history. But it does have facilities that enabled their city to dominate this metro for conventions, sports championships and major concerts. There is no easy answer but some solutions could unlock much more economic development than some of the windmills city and county leaders have chased the past 20 years.

To add a bit to the convention center portion.

Indy, Columbus, and Louisville are able to host multiple huge club volleyball tournaments during January - June because of the size of their convention centers. Last month, Cincinnati hosted a tournament at the convention center and I was surprised at how few courts it would be able to hold if space was maximized.

Yep. I don't know the square footage at our convention center but I was in the Music City Center in Nashville earlier this month and it's an enormous (and beautiful) facility. And you walk out of it in most any direction and you see cranes building more high rise hotels. A convention center that can accommodate the largest events really drives hotel occupancy and all hospitality related revenues through the roof.

This is why it's really annoying to me. A remodeled us bank arena would be a great thing for the city. PBS seems to do very little for it. But after the bengals raped the county I just don't think it'll happen. As a Kentuckian though, I encourage all of you to vote in favor of it.

Maybe we can work out a deal where we vote for a US Bank Arena renovation if you'll pay for the Brent Spence renovation, the majority of which hangs over the Kentucky portion of the Ohio River.

No way in Hell I am doing a US Bank tax hike when I am still paying for the PBS and Great American ones.

Kansas City built their arena (again, without a primary tenant) and funded it with an additional rental car and hotel tax. Hopefully the city recognizes that the taxpayers are probably not willing to shoulder the load of another stadium and can realize some alternative methods of coming up with the funds.

I think any deal with Nederlander should stipulate that they are responsible for putting a certain amount of money into upgrades over a certain time period. The very last thing we should do is give Nederlander a new arena to use and allow them to let it go to pot again.

(04-20-2017 03:46 PM)crex043 Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 03:27 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 01:06 PM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 11:43 AM)cpawfan Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 07:08 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Cincinnati has much to be proud of from the rebirth of the Riverfront (Banks) to OTR to Uptown. That big white elephant that resides on prime riverfront property can't be counted among the points of pride.

What has been built this century looks great but were the decisions strategic? It doesn't appear to be the case. The city has an outdated, undersized convention center; no domed stadium or quality indoor venue capable of augmenting convention capacity and no major league winter sports to offset the cost of a state of the art arena. So is this the Nederlander's last gasp before throwing in the towel and selling the real estate to a hotel or condo developer? One has to wonder. I've seen no indication that the NBA or NHL will be riding into town to save the day either.

Somewhat related, I would even argue that the casino represents a misuse of a fine parcel of land that, if developed as a new sports/music venue, would have further accelerated the growth of Pendleton/OTR dining, hotels, housing and entertainment.

Indianapolis can't touch Cincinnati for it's scenic setting, character, charm and history. But it does have facilities that enabled their city to dominate this metro for conventions, sports championships and major concerts. There is no easy answer but some solutions could unlock much more economic development than some of the windmills city and county leaders have chased the past 20 years.

To add a bit to the convention center portion.

Indy, Columbus, and Louisville are able to host multiple huge club volleyball tournaments during January - June because of the size of their convention centers. Last month, Cincinnati hosted a tournament at the convention center and I was surprised at how few courts it would be able to hold if space was maximized.

Yep. I don't know the square footage at our convention center but I was in the Music City Center in Nashville earlier this month and it's an enormous (and beautiful) facility. And you walk out of it in most any direction and you see cranes building more high rise hotels. A convention center that can accommodate the largest events really drives hotel occupancy and all hospitality related revenues through the roof.

This is why it's really annoying to me. A remodeled us bank arena would be a great thing for the city. PBS seems to do very little for it. But after the bengals raped the county I just don't think it'll happen. As a Kentuckian though, I encourage all of you to vote in favor of it.

Maybe we can work out a deal where we vote for a US Bank Arena renovation if you'll pay for the Brent Spence renovation, the majority of which hangs over the Kentucky portion of the Ohio River.

I'd gladly pay a tax for that as long as they pick the least expensive proposal and dont spend $200 million extra to make it the most beautiful bridge in the country.

(04-20-2017 01:06 PM)OKIcat Wrote:  Yep. I don't know the square footage at our convention center but I was in the Music City Center in Nashville earlier this month and it's an enormous (and beautiful) facility. And you walk out of it in most any direction and you see cranes building more high rise hotels. A convention center that can accommodate the largest events really drives hotel occupancy and all hospitality related revenues through the roof.

Where's the market failure here that requires taxpayers to step in to fund a fancy convention center? If it's truly beneficial for hotels, why aren't rich, savvy, successful hotel owners jumping at this opportunity? It's so odd, we tax the crap out of hotels and at the same time spend a bunch of tax money to subsidize them.

(04-20-2017 03:46 PM)crex043 Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 03:27 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 01:06 PM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 11:43 AM)cpawfan Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 07:08 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Cincinnati has much to be proud of from the rebirth of the Riverfront (Banks) to OTR to Uptown. That big white elephant that resides on prime riverfront property can't be counted among the points of pride.

What has been built this century looks great but were the decisions strategic? It doesn't appear to be the case. The city has an outdated, undersized convention center; no domed stadium or quality indoor venue capable of augmenting convention capacity and no major league winter sports to offset the cost of a state of the art arena. So is this the Nederlander's last gasp before throwing in the towel and selling the real estate to a hotel or condo developer? One has to wonder. I've seen no indication that the NBA or NHL will be riding into town to save the day either.

Somewhat related, I would even argue that the casino represents a misuse of a fine parcel of land that, if developed as a new sports/music venue, would have further accelerated the growth of Pendleton/OTR dining, hotels, housing and entertainment.

Indianapolis can't touch Cincinnati for it's scenic setting, character, charm and history. But it does have facilities that enabled their city to dominate this metro for conventions, sports championships and major concerts. There is no easy answer but some solutions could unlock much more economic development than some of the windmills city and county leaders have chased the past 20 years.

To add a bit to the convention center portion.

Indy, Columbus, and Louisville are able to host multiple huge club volleyball tournaments during January - June because of the size of their convention centers. Last month, Cincinnati hosted a tournament at the convention center and I was surprised at how few courts it would be able to hold if space was maximized.

Yep. I don't know the square footage at our convention center but I was in the Music City Center in Nashville earlier this month and it's an enormous (and beautiful) facility. And you walk out of it in most any direction and you see cranes building more high rise hotels. A convention center that can accommodate the largest events really drives hotel occupancy and all hospitality related revenues through the roof.

This is why it's really annoying to me. A remodeled us bank arena would be a great thing for the city. PBS seems to do very little for it. But after the bengals raped the county I just don't think it'll happen. As a Kentuckian though, I encourage all of you to vote in favor of it.

Maybe we can work out a deal where we vote for a US Bank Arena renovation if you'll pay for the Brent Spence renovation, the majority of which hangs over the Kentucky portion of the Ohio River.

Legally, the state of Kentucky is 100% responsible for the bridges between there and Ohio. Considering that the three Northern Kentucky counties refused to participate in spreading out the sales tax for the stadiums, despite supposedly reaping some sort of economic benefit, I say F'em as far as Brent Spence is considered. They can pay the full billions price tag. Ohio will take care of the ramps to the new bridge on the north side of the river

If you think schools can "tap into" general funds to pay for capital projects in a non-academic sector of a University, you have no idea how general funds, Institutional finance, and budgetary approval work within a University and it would take more space than this entire thread to explain it to you. That's all.

Nederlander are greedy pieces of **** who tried to bend UC over, now they're just going to the next easiest target since we laughed them out of the room.

(04-20-2017 03:57 PM)crex043 Wrote:  Kansas City built their arena (again, without a primary tenant) and funded it with an additional rental car and hotel tax. Hopefully the city recognizes that the taxpayers are probably not willing to shoulder the load of another stadium and can realize some alternative methods of coming up with the funds.

I think any deal with Nederlander should stipulate that they are responsible for putting a certain amount of money into upgrades over a certain time period. The very last thing we should do is give Nederlander a new arena to use and allow them to let it go to pot again.

Rental cars mostly get picked up in KY so a rental car tax does nothing.

(04-20-2017 05:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 03:57 PM)crex043 Wrote:  Kansas City built their arena (again, without a primary tenant) and funded it with an additional rental car and hotel tax. Hopefully the city recognizes that the taxpayers are probably not willing to shoulder the load of another stadium and can realize some alternative methods of coming up with the funds.

I think any deal with Nederlander should stipulate that they are responsible for putting a certain amount of money into upgrades over a certain time period. The very last thing we should do is give Nederlander a new arena to use and allow them to let it go to pot again.

Rental cars mostly get picked up in KY so a rental car tax does nothing.

That's just what Kansas City did. I'm sure the bright folks at City Hall can come up with alternate methods. Certainly a hotel tax will be useful.

The idea of spending taxpayer money to build an arena with no professional tenant is clinically insane. The idea that anyone thinks people would go along with it, after being fleeced by the last stadium deal, is also insane.

FC Cincinnati has a chance to be an actual chance to be an MLS squad, and even they are planning to privately finance a new stadium because they know there is zero appetite for a publicly financed building.

They just need to sell it as-is so someone can tear it down and do something productive with the land.

(04-20-2017 12:25 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 08:12 AM)TubaCat Wrote:  

(04-20-2017 07:08 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Cincinnati has much to be proud of from the rebirth of the Riverfront (Banks) to OTR to Uptown. That big white elephant that resides on prime riverfront property can't be counted among the points of pride.

What has been built this century looks great but were the decisions strategic? It doesn't appear to be the case. The city has an outdated, undersized convention center; no domed stadium or quality indoor venue capable of augmenting convention capacity and no major league winter sports to offset the cost of a state of the art arena. So is this the Nederlander's last gasp before throwing in the towel and selling the real estate to a hotel or condo developer? One has to wonder. I've seen no indication that the NBA or NHL will be riding into town to save the day either.

Somewhat related, I would even argue that the casino represents a misuse of a fine parcel of land that, if developed as a new sports/music venue, would have further accelerated the growth of Pendleton/OTR dining, hotels, housing and entertainment.

Indianapolis can't touch Cincinnati for it's scenic setting, character, charm and history. But it does have facilities that enabled their city to dominate this metro for conventions, sports championships and major concerts. There is no easy answer but some solutions could unlock much more economic development than some of the windmills city and county leaders have chased the past 20 years.

Great post. I agree that lack of a major winter tenant makes renovation unlikely. But hopefully, Cincinnati never gets an NBA team. It would be a death sentence to the UC, Xavier, and NKU basketball programs. We would be knocking out a few thousand more seats and permanently relegating ourselves to mid-major status.

And any hopes of rejoining the P5 would be hopelessly lost, there is no way a P5 conference invites a school that shares its mid-sized market with the NFL, NBA, MLB, (probably) MLS, ECHL, Xavier, and B1G/SEC juggernauts OSU and UK 90 minutes in either direction. Heck, even high school football noticeably hurts our attendance when we play Friday night games. Though probably not as bad, even an NHL team would only serve to further dilute the already overly saturated Cincinnati sports market, and give casual fans a pro sport during our basketball season.

I cringe whenever I see a UC fan on Facebook talking about how Cincinnati needs an NBA team... like that one kid who tweeted it at Ono a couple years ago, to which Ono responded something like, "All I need is Bearcat basketball!"

Sorry, I know you weren't calling for an NBA team OKIcat, I just get nervous whenever someone even mentions the idea of the NBA coming here and have to vent a bit.

I do not think you have to worry about this happening. The NBA is strategic in where they put an NBA franchise. Cincinnati is in the Pacers' footprint and the Cavs are close by as well. Not sure the NBA wants another franchise this close. Besides, Cincy had and NBA franchise and it failed here.

It only failed because the Jacobs' family drove it into the ground in their attempt to relocate the team. NBA won't come here because of the CBB market here with UC, X, UD, UK, UL, IU and now NKU. A NHL team as a primary tenant would be the only solution albeit somewhat unlikely.

(04-19-2017 10:45 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  

(04-19-2017 06:49 AM)BeerCat Wrote:  Is the tide turning nationally as far as giving billionaires public money to build them stadiums?

If Cincinnati had an NBA team or NHL team their chances of extorting public money would be much greater.

If only PBS would have been constructed as a domed stadium this would not even be an issue as Cincinnati could then have hosted an NCAA Final Four.

Said the same thing from Day #1. NCAA Final Four, Super Bowl, Bowl Game, Expanded Convention Facilities, etc.

From Deadspin.

This pretty much sums it up.

(04-21-2017 09:26 AM)Teakwood Wrote:  From Deadspin.

This pretty much sums it up.

Nice article. It's reassuring to see quotes from the county commissioners pretty much telling Nederlander to go pound sand.