(02-27-2017 08:56 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  We have Russia hacking the DNC and this is what the news is talking about. You guys own the media and the sickest thing. They have you convinced they don't. Absolutely amazing to me. Distract distract distract.

Funny, we had Benghazi happening and your side would not shut the hell up about Bruce Jenner.

(02-27-2017 09:25 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That you guys own the media and the narratives......... Serious as a heart attack........................


It's political ju jitsu......... and you are miles ahead of the D's and I am truly jealous of it. You guys can make a national news story pop up out of thin air. You make mountains out of molehills and when something is really bad. You diffuse it and cast it aside without nary a peep. It really is amazing. If this situation were reversed there would be riots in the streets. Buildings would be blowing up and you wouldn't have milk or bread in stores.

Curious about something Mach... Who brings shaq like this to the media's attention more? the left or the right. I mean who called the news to get the story out there about a girl on PEDS wanting to wrestle boys?

(02-27-2017 11:17 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 09:25 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That you guys own the media and the narratives......... Serious as a heart attack........................


It's political ju jitsu......... and you are miles ahead of the D's and I am truly jealous of it. You guys can make a national news story pop up out of thin air. You make mountains out of molehills and when something is really bad. You diffuse it and cast it aside without nary a peep. It really is amazing. If this situation were reversed there would be riots in the streets. Buildings would be blowing up and you wouldn't have milk or bread in stores.

Curious about something Mach... Who brings shaq like this to the media's attention more? the left or the right. I mean who called the news to get the story out there about a girl on PEDS wanting to wrestle boys?

He has a right to participate in taxpayer supported physical contact team sports. Texas is attempting to deny that to him (the UIL's leadership has already announced they're going to get the legislature to ban Trans kids), while providing those benefits to cisgendered kids.

Mach, any attempt by the government to deny equal access and participation to any member of the LGBT community, simply because they are visibly LGBT, is serious, and is a big deal.

With the exception of the few sports where girls outperform men (long distance swimming) girls can compete in boys division but not the other way around.

transgendered individuals may be allowed to compete in their own division, but only if they meet the standard performance enhancing drug medical exemptions that are in place for all other sports.

(02-27-2017 11:25 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 11:17 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 09:25 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That you guys own the media and the narratives......... Serious as a heart attack........................


It's political ju jitsu......... and you are miles ahead of the D's and I am truly jealous of it. You guys can make a national news story pop up out of thin air. You make mountains out of molehills and when something is really bad. You diffuse it and cast it aside without nary a peep. It really is amazing. If this situation were reversed there would be riots in the streets. Buildings would be blowing up and you wouldn't have milk or bread in stores.

Curious about something Mach... Who brings shaq like this to the media's attention more? the left or the right. I mean who called the news to get the story out there about a girl on PEDS wanting to wrestle boys?

He has a right to participate in taxpayer supported physical contact team sports. Texas is attempting to deny that to him (the UIL's leadership has already announced they're going to get the legislature to ban Trans kids), while providing those benefits to cisgendered kids.

If this is a matter of a girl concluding she's a boy and wants to compete with boys then I have no problem with it provided they adhere to the rules for the sport regarding PEDS. But I have a big problem with a boy deciding he's a girl wanting to compete against girls. Despite their psychological conclusion of how they identify, males were born with physical characteristics that would give them an unfair advantage when competing against females.

In my viewpoint it's a Texas thing. I think it's the right bringing this up because the vast majority of people will think it's bs that "the girl" is competing as a girl. I mean it was on EVERYTHING this past weekend. Local newspaper. Local broadcast news. Enough already.

(02-27-2017 11:25 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  He has a right to participate in taxpayer supported physical contact team sports.

Not if she's on PED's... I'm not saying any ped usage should be banned but testosterone injections for the point of treating gender identity disorder should be treated like any other peds. If they are over a certain level then you don't compete.

It's a safety issue.

Quote:Mach, any attempt by the government to deny equal access and participation to any member of the LGBT community, simply because they are visibly LGBT, is serious, and is a big deal.

Tom, let me ask you.

Why do you think we sex segregate sports? should we sex segregate them?

(02-27-2017 11:29 AM)john01992 Wrote:  With the exception of the few sports where girls outperform men (long distance swimming) girls can compete in boys division but not the other way around.

transgendered individuals may be allowed to compete in their own division, but only if they meet the standard performance enhancing drug medical exemptions that are in place for all other sports.

That doesn't work. Here's why. Its not about sports but about access to the FUNDED and watched sports. To put them in some sort of 'special olympics' is to marginalize them.

The whole point of high school athletics is about socialization and access to being 'included'. And being part of a team of their classmates and being highly visible as equal representatives of their school. The FCA doesn't concentrate on the chess club for a reason. Because its not really the same as being on the 'cool contact sport' team with your classmates. Sports isn't about competing, but about popularity, for the vast majority of the kids participating in it. Also, making Trans kids compete against inferiror competiton will hurt their chances of gettting scholarships to college, where Trans people can compete. Is every school district in the country going to hire coaches for the "Trans" teams so that Trans kids get the same level of training? Of course not.

The problem with a drug exemption list, is that from a practical perspective, those that hate Trans people will engineer the list to prevent Trans persons from transitioning and competing. That's their entire point. To keep sports taxpayer funded, but exclude Trans kids from the benefits of it. If there's a drug exemption list, it must come with a mandate that Trans kids be provided with a path to TRANSITION and compete on their teams' physical contact sports with their classmates.

(02-27-2017 11:37 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 11:25 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  He has a right to participate in taxpayer supported physical contact team sports.

Not if she's on PED's... I'm not saying any ped usage should be banned but testosterone injections for the point of treating gender identity disorder should be treated like any other peds. If they are over a certain level then you don't compete.

It's a safety issue.

Quote:Mach, any attempt by the government to deny equal access and participation to any member of the LGBT community, simply because they are visibly LGBT, is serious, and is a big deal.

Tom, let me ask you.

Why do you think we sex segregate sports? should we sex segregate them?

We allow football, which is really dangerous, and wrestling has weight divisions. Men have wrestled women for years.

Look, the whole point of the anti-Trans movement is to make Trans persons invisible or marginalized. I can't think of a more effective way to do it than by banning them (and yes, what you're demanding is a ban - and you know it) from being Trans and competing.

(02-26-2017 12:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:42 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Simple solution. Women's/girls' competitions are open only to genetic females not taking any gender alteration drugs that would tend to be performance enhancing. Men's/boys' competitions are open competitions, open to all.

Nope..Not good enough for Tom. No compromise...period. The alphabets must get their way 100 percent.

Full equality. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, passing a bunch of rules in order to stop participation by Trans kids is targeting.

The issue with Owl's plan is that it makes M to F Trans kids compete in their incorrect gender. You want male wrestlers to compete against a kid with boobs?

The real problem is that the UIL decided to look at it from a Texas GOP perspective, and forced Mack to choose between competing against girls or not compete at all.

(02-26-2017 01:42 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 01:05 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 12:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:55 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 11:54 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Lots of kids compete on drugs, under the guidance of a doctor.
I see your respect and kindness for Trans persons. I can't imagine why anyone would read your post and conclude that you wish to harm Trans kids.
As far as being a snowflake. It takes a lot of balls to tell the UIL 'F -you, I'm going to compete' and put up with the abuse resulting from that.

In other words, you dont want protections, you want special treatment. Nah, I think most of us will pass on that. Thanks.

No, just equal access to competition. And no rules designed to bar or marginalize Trans kids. Again, lots of kids compete on performance enhancing drugs under the care of a doctor.

How do you have equality for people that are inherently unequal?

I've posted my proposed approach above. What solution would satisfy you? Not platitudes like "equal access" but specific concrete proposals. And how would they be implemented without disrupting the objective of competition for all? What negative impacts would you expect your solution to have on non-LBGT persons, and how would you propose to address those issues? Have you ever even thought about negative impacts on others? Ever?

This is your problem, Tom. You see everything through, and only through, the narrow lens of a tiny minority of people. Their valid and legitimate interests count, but so do the valid and legitimate interests of others. And there are many others with valid and legitimate interests in protecting competitions from the distortions that you seek to impose. And despite your allegations, those interests have absolutely nothing to do with any phobia of any sort. You need to wake up and look at the world, and not just your narrow corner.

Don't pretend that there are lots of people who wish us harm. And they're in power.

And if they don't recognize Trans people as the gender they are, then they really don't have any credibility on these issues. Don't pretend that they don't want us, and by us that means ALL LGBT people, to simply cease to exist. Or only to exist in marginalized places.

Don't pretend that there are many who seek to use power to discriminate against our ability to thrive in society. Telling minorities to 'just shut up and let society decide what scraps of fifth class citizenship they deem good enough for us' isn't acceptable. And it won't result in any movement on the very real and very concrete issues that impact our lives.

No one is going to help us towards our goal of complete equality if we don't advocate for ourselves.

Tom - rules in sports are not about social transformation and political correctness... they are primarily about fairness in competition (not so much in life). Your solution would have Bruce Jenner competing as a woman. Who would that really have benefited? It likely would have resulted in Olympic records that could not be broken by women athletes. While the genitalia of Bruce Jenner might match those who he competes against, the bones and muscles would remain those of a man. Which are more significant in competition? By the same token, the use of performance enhancing drugs, for whatever reason, should not be ignored in competition. There are some who advocate for unrestricted use of PEDs, but I think that works to the detriment of athletes' health and this would be treading dangerously on normalizing the use of PEDs on the grounds of fairness in competition. What would you do if one girl were caught using PEDs solely for competitive advantage against an opponent using PEDs as part of the sex-change process?

I also have to question the basic ethics of gender transformation in someone so young. I understand that sexual orientation may well be determined by this age, my understanding is that gender identity is much more fluid. Most teenagers of any sexual orientation are awkward and somewhat uncomfortable in a changing body, and to make such a trans-formative decision at a time when things may soon change does not seem like a good idea. Please understand that when I say I question the morality, I care nothing about religious or societal expectations and am basing this only on the best outcome for the individual as they transition into adulthood.

(02-27-2017 09:01 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  RUSSIANS!

Transgender Russians control the Media...

(02-27-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  That doesn't work. Here's why. Its not about sports but about access to the FUNDED and watched sports. To put them in some sort of 'special olympics' is to marginalize them.

Why in the world does "watched" have anything to do with it.

Quote:The whole point of high school athletics is about socialization and access to being 'included'. And being part of a team of their classmates and being highly visible as equal representatives of their school.

Right... and someone who is biologically a woman can do that on womens teams *or* mens teams provided they are not on PED's.

Men cant be on womens teams because it spits in the face of title ix.

Quote:The FCA doesn't concentrate on the chess club for a reason.

Chess is not a sport.

Quote:Because its not really the same as being on the 'cool contact sport' team with your classmates.

Track, CC, Hockey, Hoops, Swimming, vball, and others provide both a girls and a boys sports. For the few sports which are basically men only like football and wrestling women *are* allowed to compete.

You really have said nothing of note so far.

Quote:Sports isn't about competing, but about popularity, for the vast majority of the kids participating in it.

Spoken like someone who was either unpopular or uninvolved with sports.

As someone who was all district in multiple sports and all section in another I disagree. The competition and the drive to compete was the primary benefit I got out of sports.

But I did not start sports until my junior year and even awards did not enhance my social standing. Basically my circle of friends was band, the paper, homeroom, and (oddly) chess. All of which were things I did for four years.

Quote:Also, making Trans kids compete against inferiror competiton will hurt their chances of gettting scholarships to college, where Trans people can compete.

For girls playing at being men: Don't take PED and you can compete

For boys playing at being women: Being awesome against stronger male competition will not hurt scholarship opportunities in the least.

Again... This is a molehill, not a mountain.

Quote:The problem with a drug exemption list, is that from a practical perspective, those that hate Trans people will engineer the list to prevent Trans persons from transitioning and competing.

Adolescents should not be doping up on hormones in any event. Especially given a number of them will want to transition *back* to their actual gender at some point in their lives.

But even for those who don't, taking puberty blockers and hormones during adolescence raise the risk of future heart problems and diabetes. They create a short term immediate risk of blood clots.

They also seriously damage the prospect of future fertility.

This is *NOT* good for children. They should wait until they are adults to make these decisions.

Quote: To keep sports taxpayer funded, but exclude Trans kids from the benefits of it.

As I've pointed out, thats a pile of horse ****. Girls can play football and wrestle without PEDs, without puberty blockers, and without the risk associated.

They can also do so while living as a *whatever the hell they want*. Trans, gender fluid, or normal girls who want to play football.

For boys who plan to transition in their adult life going to states against men will not hurt their scholarship opportunities when applying for a woman's title IX provided slot at a college.

(02-27-2017 12:09 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 11:37 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 11:25 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  He has a right to participate in taxpayer supported physical contact team sports.

Not if she's on PED's... I'm not saying any ped usage should be banned but testosterone injections for the point of treating gender identity disorder should be treated like any other peds. If they are over a certain level then you don't compete.

It's a safety issue.

Quote:Mach, any attempt by the government to deny equal access and participation to any member of the LGBT community, simply because they are visibly LGBT, is serious, and is a big deal.

Tom, let me ask you.

Why do you think we sex segregate sports? should we sex segregate them?

We allow football, which is really dangerous, and wrestling has weight divisions. Men have wrestled women for years.

Look, the whole point of the anti-Trans movement is to make Trans persons invisible or marginalized. I can't think of a more effective way to do it than by banning them (and yes, what you're demanding is a ban - and you know it) from being Trans and competing.

You know, I missed that you never actually answered the dang question..

Why do you think we sex segregate sports? should we sex segregate them?

Muh Putin has a Puddy

(02-27-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 11:29 AM)john01992 Wrote:  With the exception of the few sports where girls outperform men (long distance swimming) girls can compete in boys division but not the other way around.

transgendered individuals may be allowed to compete in their own division, but only if they meet the standard performance enhancing drug medical exemptions that are in place for all other sports.

That doesn't work. Here's why. Its not about sports but about access to the FUNDED and watched sports. To put them in some sort of 'special olympics' is to marginalize them.

The whole point of high school athletics is about socialization and access to being 'included'. And being part of a team of their classmates and being highly visible as equal representatives of their school. The FCA doesn't concentrate on the chess club for a reason. Because its not really the same as being on the 'cool contact sport' team with your classmates. Sports isn't about competing, but about popularity, for the vast majority of the kids participating in it. Also, making Trans kids compete against inferiror competiton will hurt their chances of gettting scholarships to college, where Trans people can compete. Is every school district in the country going to hire coaches for the "Trans" teams so that Trans kids get the same level of training? Of course not.

The problem with a drug exemption list, is that from a practical perspective, those that hate Trans people will engineer the list to prevent Trans persons from transitioning and competing. That's their entire point. To keep sports taxpayer funded, but exclude Trans kids from the benefits of it. If there's a drug exemption list, it must come with a mandate that Trans kids be provided with a path to TRANSITION and compete on their teams' physical contact sports with their classmates.

sorry Tom but I have never seen a kid in a wheelchair play a varsity level sport. I'm all for inclusion but not at the cost of destroying the competitive balance of sports.

The drug exemption list is incredibly accommodating and has a proven track record. I don't see it as an institution of discrimination.

(02-27-2017 12:26 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  That doesn't work. Here's why. Its not about sports but about access to the FUNDED and watched sports. To put them in some sort of 'special olympics' is to marginalize them.

Why in the world does "watched" have anything to do with it.

Quote:The whole point of high school athletics is about socialization and access to being 'included'. And being part of a team of their classmates and being highly visible as equal representatives of their school.

Right... and someone who is biologically a woman can do that on womens teams *or* mens teams provided they are not on PED's.

Men cant be on womens teams because it spits in the face of title ix.

Quote:The FCA doesn't concentrate on the chess club for a reason.

Chess is not a sport.

Quote:Because its not really the same as being on the 'cool contact sport' team with your classmates.

Track, CC, Hockey, Hoops, Swimming, vball, and others provide both a girls and a boys sports. For the few sports which are basically men only like football and wrestling women *are* allowed to compete.

You really have said nothing of note so far.

Quote:Sports isn't about competing, but about popularity, for the vast majority of the kids participating in it.

Spoken like someone who was either unpopular or uninvolved with sports.

As someone who was all district in multiple sports and all section in another I disagree. The competition and the drive to compete was the primary benefit I got out of sports.

But I did not start sports until my junior year and even awards did not enhance my social standing. Basically my circle of friends was band, the paper, homeroom, and (oddly) chess. All of which were things I did for four years.

Quote:Also, making Trans kids compete against inferiror competiton will hurt their chances of gettting scholarships to college, where Trans people can compete.

For girls playing at being men: Don't take PED and you can compete

For boys playing at being women: Being awesome against stronger male competition will not hurt scholarship opportunities in the least.

Again... This is a molehill, not a mountain.

Quote:The problem with a drug exemption list, is that from a practical perspective, those that hate Trans people will engineer the list to prevent Trans persons from transitioning and competing.

Adolescents should not be doping up on hormones in any event. Especially given a number of them will want to transition *back* to their actual gender at some point in their lives.

But even for those who don't, taking puberty blockers and hormones during adolescence raise the risk of future heart problems and diabetes. They create a short term immediate risk of blood clots.

They also seriously damage the prospect of future fertility.

This is *NOT* good for children. They should wait until they are adults to make these decisions.

Quote: To keep sports taxpayer funded, but exclude Trans kids from the benefits of it.

As I've pointed out, thats a pile of horse ****. Girls can play football and wrestle without PEDs, without puberty blockers, and without the risk associated.

They can also do so while living as a *whatever the hell they want*. Trans, gender fluid, or normal girls who want to play football.

For boys who plan to transition in their adult life going to states against men will not hurt their scholarship opportunities when applying for a woman's title IX provided slot at a college.

FFS dude that was an unnecessary cheap shot.

What division should Jenner compete in Tom?

(02-27-2017 12:40 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 12:26 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(02-27-2017 12:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Sports isn't about competing, but about popularity, for the vast majority of the kids participating in it.

Spoken like someone who was either unpopular or uninvolved with sports.

FFS dude that was an unnecessary cheap shot.

What was cheap about it.. Read it again without bias please.

He said " Sports isn't about competing, but about popularity "

If I'm right:
He could have been the most popular kid in school and not on a sports team.

or

He could have been an awesome athlete but not popular.

Not being on a sports team or not being mr popular is not an insult. Some of my best friends in HS never played on a team of any kind, some of the most popular kids in our school never did a sport.

But Tom saying the competitiveness and the things it breeds (teamwork, fair play, etc) are secondary to being popular in HS sports is a fairly twisted view of the benefits of sports. It's not something that too many people who played a sport would say.

Am I wrong in saying that?

(02-26-2017 05:14 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Ham,

Its Texas, its Trans people.

So? If you hate Texas so much, why do you still live there? Don't tell me that you've increasingly thought of leaving because Texas isn't 'worse' in this regard than it was 5 or 10 or 20 years ago. Later on you complain about Ohio.

None of that in any way addresses anything I pointed out.

Probably fewer than 1% of the population in ANY state is Trans... put that into high school and make them athletes and we're talking about a minuscule fraction of the participants. High Schools don't sponsor 'special' sports either, and I guarantee they make up more of the population than Trans.

Quote:Come on, you've heard those ads calling all Trans people like child molesters. There's only about 1000 pieces of legislation specifically trying to enable discrimination against them working their way through Dan Patrick's statehouse.

No, I actually have not. Nor do I get my opinions or feelings from commercials. I've seen what you call 'specifically trying to enable discrimination' and 90% of it is just as you're doing here... arguing that because we don't cater to an infinitesimally small sector of the population that has what are mostly 'phantom' issues, that they're being discriminated against.

Go Picket Dan Patrick's State House.

Quote:But no, while the war on Trans people is going on, expect full on equal protection arguments to erupt nationally.

Fine... Once again, all you're doing is turning people like me who generally support equality in all respects against you... because 'what you want' isn't equality in ANY respect. YOU and those who share your methods are the one(s) creating the lightning rod for the bigots.... because they can paint EVERYONE on your side of the aisle with your brush in order to dismiss them all.

It works, Tom... and the last election should have proven that. Calling people deplorables etc etc who demonstrably aren't doesn't marginalize the deplorables... It marginalizes YOU.... because LOTS of people who would otherwise side with you are the very people you're talking about. I don't support people who call me deplorable because I'm not willing to burn down the house to fix a leaky faucet.

I can just see a man on a women's water hockey game. Those women are mean, they'd be undressing the guy who thinks he's a woman all day and his schlong exposed for all to see. Oh, now I see why tommie wants trannys in sports. Hmm, interesting.