JRsec
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RE: CBS: How the ACC used coaches, quarterbacks to overtake the SEC in 2016
(02-01-2017 10:31 AM)Lou_C Wrote: (01-31-2017 03:05 PM)JRsec Wrote: (01-31-2017 09:45 AM)Lou_C Wrote: (01-30-2017 10:13 PM)JRsec Wrote: The article misses the point entirely. Saban, like Meyer, is an absolute control freak. He dictates what he expects from each assistant and hovers over them like a helicopter Mom at rush. Kiffin was a hire to help an old friend out, Monty.
If you look back at great SEC coaches the modus operandi is a constant. Bear, Shug, Charlie Mac, Vince, Johnny V., and Gen. Neyland were all workaholic / obsessive compulsive dictators. Poppa Bowden, Joe Pa, Woody & Bo, Pete Carroll, John McKay, Darrell Royal, Lou Holtz, Bobby Dodd, Ara, Broyles, Devaney, Wilkinson and Knute were all similar in that regard.
The problem in the SEC right now is that the rest are laid back and try to be nice guys, or they are simply disorganized. Hugh and Gus are high school coaches who overachieved. Mullen can coach, but he's stayed too long at Mississippi State. Les like Tommy Tubberville was cruising to retirement but still wanted a fat check. Kirby and Jim have their hands full at institutions that expect everything all at once. Muschamp and Butch couldn't organize their underwear drawer let alone a football team. Stoops has the most thankless coaching job for football in the SEC. And Bielema is just plain inconsistent even if he overachieved at home.
This happened once before in the late 70's and early 80's when every SEC hire had to be a disciple of Bear. Most weren't worth a hoot. Why? The same reason Saban's haven't been able to make stellar transitions to head coaching.....it was Saban's ever vigilant eye and his Hitleresque control that makes Alabama roll. If the Head Coach does it for you it doesn't mean you learn how to do it for yourself.
I think Jimbo and Dabo get this. And if you think about it it makes a great deal of sense. Nobody wants to get fired because one of their assistants screws the pooch. Therefore if you have to take ultimate responsibility then by God it's going to be done your way. After all if you get fired it had better be for your own shortcomings and not some underling's.
Miami will be better off than it was, but Richt will simply remain above average. Virginia Tech made a good hire. Pitt did too but, oh well! Folks can get wrankled all they want about Paul at GT but he is consistently competitive with less talent. So until the BMD's in the SEC wake up and once again hire the top coaches wherever they can find them instead of taking Saban disciples we will remain in this funk.
But kudos to the poster here that pointed out Texas's lack of success in spite of money. It's not about money. It's about the guy you pick to run your team. If he is detail oriented, fundamentally sound and can teach fundamentals, and if he command obedience from his subordinates he will win.
The advantage the ACC has right now is that you are looking everywhere for the best available. The SEC has returned to its incestuous "must hire from within" mode that took us to mediocrity once before. But hey, the old AD's that learned that lesson in the 80's have all been replaced and the new ones have to learn that lesson all over again!
JR, I don't think you are necessarily off base with your evaluation of coaches, but I don't think that any of this is necessarily inconsistent with the column.
When you talk about the success of coaches that are control freak/dictators, I think it's reasonable to to ask, what SEC schools allow that?
Obviously, Saban's got it. That's not an Alabama thing, that's a Saban thing...he demanded it/earned it, etc. But Franchione fled Alabama because he couldn't get a new secretary or change the carpet in his office, that kind of thing, because it stepped on toes.
I think it's reasonable to consider how many programs in the SEC, because of massive booster influence and huge pressure on/from ADs, will allow this kind of control.
Here's Malzahn, who took Auburn within seconds of a national title, who can't hire an offensive coordinator of his choosing:
http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/index.s...r_s_4.html
At Florida, it is not much of a secret that the AD forced Muschamp to hire Charlie Weis. And now...how much do you think McElwain likes the fact that Steve Spurrier was brought into the program again. Do you think it was his choice? You think he enjoyed having Spurrier reveal his starting QB for him?
At Tennessee, they might hire Phil Fulmer as the AD:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nca.../96644036/
"Fulmer has grown close to Tennessee President Joe DiPietro and a group of influential boosters have been working behind the scenes to help install him as Dave Hart’s replacement, according to people close to the situation."
I'm sure the coach at Tennessee, Jones or his successor, will love answering to a guy that has been angling for his job back ever since he was fired, and has no real AD qualifications.
Ole Miss can't keep their boosters within reasonable and acceptable levels of cheating.
I guess what I'm saying is that the type of top down control you have at Clemson or Florida State or Duke over the football programs, or that Richt and Fuente are probably getting as well...how much more difficult is that to get at an SEC school?
It's not impossible, as Saban has demonstrated, but it's tougher there than in other conferences I believe (while at some other individual programs, like Texas, it's at least as bad).
I don't think that's inconsistent with what you're saying, but it further fleshes out what you are saying is missing. And the hiring of Saban assistants definitely exacerbates it because these are generally guys that haven't proven themselves as head coaches anywhere or in any meaningful way, so they aren't as likely to give them free reign.
I see your nuance here and some of it is very valid. But the examples you cited all have less public issues behind them. In the world of college athletics reporters don't get access if they spill too many beans. Therefore the public is carefully given information.
Do you really think the folks in Happy Valley had any idea of just how much influence Paterno had? Sure there were a few inside the administration that knew in spades what was going on, but most of the folks just believed in St. Joe. Now you can substitute St. Paul "Bear" Bryant, or any other name with the same effect.
At Auburn Malzahn doesn't have the influence because he has other issues pertaining to his judgement that have hamstrung his largess. Do you think they will publicize that?
Hugh Freeze, as other head coaches do, let the boosters know which kids he wanted. I promise you these guys are fully aware even though they are very careful not to put anything in writing or to speak on phones, or via the internet. Most information is passed face to face and outside of the Athletic Department building.
Pat Dye had plenty of control at Auburn. Tubby earned his way into it. Bowden earned his control at FSU.
If Fulmer worms his way in as AD at Tennessee it is highly doubtful he returns to coaching. First, he's lost his recruiting ties. Most of those dry up with a 3 year absence let alone a decade or more. Second, Butch doesn't have as much control because Kiffin abused his. There's more here than meets the eye and each school's situation is unique. But I stick by my observation, it's not about money, and that includes having so much that spending it has been bureaucratized, it hasn't. It's about trust. The young guys haven't earned it, some schools have been abused by giving out too much (Tennessee / Florida / Arkansas), and some have coaches that secretly have demonstrated they can't handle it.
The SEC simply got complacent, fell into easy appeasement of BMD's by hiring Saban disciples (because those were the names hot on the BMD's lips) instead of doing the hard job of actually going beyond our borders for great hires. They've forgotten that Meyer came from Utah, Saban from Michigan State, and Miles from outside SEC pipelines, and yes Miles was fine until he got complacent. So I just don't buy the OP's point of view. But I do see and get your perspective even if it is based on the OP's assessment. We've forgotten the most important rule about life and success. Success doesn't guarantee future outcomes. Hard work does.
Public or private reasons aside, I see what you are saying, but still think that if this premise from the source in this column is true (and I don't know if it is):
A successful program today has to be run with one voice from the top down, in every aspect of the program.
I still say the SEC is less conducive to that than any other conference. It's coaches, for a variety of reasons, have the most difficulty assembling that authority. There are exceptions inside the SEC and out of course.
I find it funny you would even say Tubby was in total control at Auburn, when boosters were literally interviewing Petrino behind his back. Auburn has to be right up there as the most interfered with program in America.
Anyway, whether this "one voice" issue is a huge factor, a small factor or virtually no factor at all is certainly up for discussion. I just found it an interesting premise that someone claimed it as THE explanation, because it has interesting ramifications IF it was true.
I think what you are most saying is that there are a lot of other, better explanations for basically a one year funk in the SEC than this premise. I don't have any reason to disagree with that.
That's fair enough Lou. Tubby got his his authority at Auburn with the failed coup of Yellow Wood boy Jimmy Raines and his master Bobby Lowder. Jimmy Sexton had the Auburn Trustees nuts in a vice after that one. While Tubs had his issues off and on the field, he nonetheless had the strongest position he had enjoyed after Lowder's jet flew to Louisville. Was that Pat Dye level strength? No But, Pat Dye level strength led to allegations of lack of institutional control and the Auburn administration will probably never give up that kind of control again. However, Tubs had more control than any coach since Shug other than Dye, and certainly enough control over his own staff to make it function with one voice.
Chizik was a disorganized mess as head man and he lost control of his staff and the team. Malzahn is uni-focused on his offense and won't let his OC's function. He totally ignored the defense until the AD stepped in to insure that focus. We were spending two thirds of our scholarships on the offensive side of the ball until two years ago. And Gus, for all of his abilities in X's and O's, is totally reliant upon a specific set of skills at QB. They have to be able to run, and need to be very fast and they must be able to free the line by having an arm capable of the deep ball. He hasn't recruited one of those yet and without it the offense fails. So there is a lack of trust where he is concerned. If not for making the title game against you guys he would have already been gone. Instead he is bleeding power because of mistrust of his program choices.
Remember, Cam Newton was a freak of nature that Auburn got out of JC. Marshall came in as a transfer DB and was converted to QB when our anointed went down in pre-season. Since then? Nothing. Gus may luck out next year when the kid from Baylor finds a new home with us. We'll see. But Malzahn came in with all the control he needed. Those closest to him realize his deficits. The title game and the fact that we are still paying Tubby and Chiz (minus their current salaries) have helped Gus hold onto his job.
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