(03-02-2015 02:10 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  [quote='Kaplony' pid='11827120' dateline='1425319500']
Why do you put illegal in quotations? If they did not come to this country by the established legal way they are illegal immigrants and are criminals.

Perfect example of conservative whining on display here. Again as I've stated before in this thread. There is no realistic way for poor people from south of the border to come to the USA for work. Its the perfect example of the term: "pissing on you and tell you its raining". Does crossing the border without papers make people illegals?

Yes.

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  I guess in your eyes it does, but I personally equate it to a starving man stealing a loaf of bread. Does that make him a thief?

Yes. As far as what you "equate it to"... your feelings are completely irrelevant to the law.

Fair enough, but what should the punishment be? Send him to jail? This way he'll learn how to rob a bank instead of a bakery when he gets out.

(03-02-2015 01:08 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Well, to Americans ISIS isn't as dangerous as illegals. But in the last 5 years how many murders occurred in Juarez? And what does a comparison have to do with immigration reform which we all know is code for amnesty?

This is where republicans get on my nerves. They do nothing when in power and then act like cry babies when democrats try to do something. Do I agree with amnesty, absolutely not, nor do I agree with obamacare for that matter. However I do appreciate that SOMETHING is tried to rectify the situation.

(03-02-2015 02:18 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:09 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 01:50 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 10:08 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(03-01-2015 06:15 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  How about enforcing the law?

This. It's really not that ******* difficult.

I guess you missed my post where I mentioned that there have been laws in place for decades now.

I didn't miss anything. They're not enforcing the laws.

Exactly. Why is that? My personal view is because the powers that be (those financing the politicians) don't want them enforced. They want a permanent underclass of cheap labor to pull from. Unintended consequences of this are higher crime, abuse of benefits, etc. here in the US. Consequences in Mexico and other countries south of the border are broken families which lead to higher crime, drug use, etc. In short everyone loses except the people at the top that couldn't care less about those issues.

I actually agree with all of this.

(03-02-2015 02:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 01:05 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Why do you put illegal in quotations? If they did not come to this country by the established legal way they are illegal immigrants and are criminals.

Innocent until proven guilty.

Yep, just like that cop in Ferguson and Zman.

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 01:05 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Why do you put illegal in quotations? If they did not come to this country by the established legal way they are illegal immigrants and are criminals.

Perfect example of conservative whining on display here. Again as I've stated before in this thread. There is no realistic way for poor people from south of the border to come to the USA for work. Its the perfect example of the term: "pissing on you and tell you its raining". Does crossing the border without papers make people illegals? I guess in your eyes it does, but I personally equate it to a starving man stealing a loaf of bread. Does that make him a thief?

Yes to both.

If you don't like that lobby congress to change the federal immigration law. Up until they do change the law if someone enters the country in contrary to the established legal methods proscribed by law they are illegal immigrants and criminals no matter how much you whine about it.

(03-02-2015 05:04 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Yes to both.

If you don't like that lobby congress to change the federal immigration law. Up until they do change the law if someone enters the country in contrary to the established legal methods proscribed by law they are illegal immigrants and criminals no matter how much you whine about it.

Well I do concede that I've yet to write my congressman about it. I guess I will do that one of these days. Then my question would be what would you have us do about it. Kick them out of our country? I'm cool with that. How?

(03-02-2015 06:30 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 05:04 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Yes to both.

If you don't like that lobby congress to change the federal immigration law. Up until they do change the law if someone enters the country in contrary to the established legal methods proscribed by law they are illegal immigrants and criminals no matter how much you whine about it.

Well I do concede that I've yet to write my congressman about it. I guess I will do that one of these days. Then my question would be what would you have us do about it. Kick them out of our country? I'm cool with that. How?

First thing I would do is empower the state and local agencies that have received the training from ICE to have the authority to enforce the law and offer the training to any agency that wants it. That instantly multiplies the manpower available to enforce the existing statutes without costing the taxpayers any additional money. You can also authorize the border states to utilize their National Guard to patrol the border if they so desire.

Second, speed up the deportation process. The hearing should be a formality anyway. Unless you are claiming political asylum if you did not enter the country in the legal manner your next stop should be your home country. There is no release awaiting the deportation hearing....you sit in jail until you get one. If you ever enter the country illegally you are prohibited from entering the country legally for 10 years. A third time? Life at hard labor.

Third, if you are caught a second time entering the country illegally you are sentenced to five years in a prison labor camp without parole. When you finish your five years you are immediately deported.

Fourth, companies and/or individuals that hire illegals are fined $100,000 a pop and the hiring authority serves five years in prison. Increase the fine and prison time with every violation.

Fifth, streamline the legal immigration process. The legal process is far too long and too complicated right now and is a big reason why illegal immigration is a problem.

(03-02-2015 06:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 06:30 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 05:04 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Yes to both.

If you don't like that lobby congress to change the federal immigration law. Up until they do change the law if someone enters the country in contrary to the established legal methods proscribed by law they are illegal immigrants and criminals no matter how much you whine about it.

Well I do concede that I've yet to write my congressman about it. I guess I will do that one of these days. Then my question would be what would you have us do about it. Kick them out of our country? I'm cool with that. How?

First thing I would do is empower the state and local agencies that have received the training from ICE to have the authority to enforce the law and offer the training to any agency that wants it. That instantly multiplies the manpower available to enforce the existing statutes without costing the taxpayers any additional money. You can also authorize the border states to utilize their National Guard to patrol the border if they so desire.

Second, speed up the deportation process. The hearing should be a formality anyway. Unless you are claiming political asylum if you did not enter the country in the legal manner your next stop should be your home country. There is no release awaiting the deportation hearing....you sit in jail until you get one. If you ever enter the country illegally you are prohibited from entering the country legally for 10 years. A third time? Life at hard labor.

Third, if you are caught a second time entering the country illegally you are sentenced to five years in a prison labor camp without parole. When you finish your five years you are immediately deported.

Fourth, companies and/or individuals that hire illegals are fined $100,000 a pop and the hiring authority serves five years in prison. Increase the fine and prison time with every violation.

Fifth, streamline the legal immigration process. The legal process is far too long and too complicated right now and is a big reason why illegal immigration is a problem.

Some of those laws are already in place. Example: if you are deported you can't come back legally for 10 years with jail time if caught, and technically there are already fines and/or jail time of hiring illegals. The only things I disagree with are in making fourth and fifth 1st and 2nd. Mainly because it would reduce costs even more on need for deportations. I would also add some sort of liaison-organization between social security, irs, homeland security and employers. This way it would make it easier for the employer to make sure the SSN is valid and that the potential employee is who he/she really is. I would allow a one year grace period to allow employers and "employees" to leave voluntarily.
Now we just have to figure out what we (Americans) are going to do about all those vegetables that are going to be left rotting on the field for lack of hands to pick them, all those cows and chickens that will live long past their prime for lack of hands to process them. Not to mention houses that won't get built, lawns that won't get cut, etc, etc. BTW I'm not mentioning this to be ironic or facetious in any way, rather it is a very real problem that has to be addressed. This is why I like 'Owl69/70/75' approach the best because it does address this issue even though he didn't mention it.

(03-02-2015 02:22 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:10 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  [quote='Kaplony' pid='11827120' dateline='1425319500']
Why do you put illegal in quotations? If they did not come to this country by the established legal way they are illegal immigrants and are criminals.

Perfect example of conservative whining on display here. Again as I've stated before in this thread. There is no realistic way for poor people from south of the border to come to the USA for work. Its the perfect example of the term: "pissing on you and tell you its raining". Does crossing the border without papers make people illegals?

Yes.

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  I guess in your eyes it does, but I personally equate it to a starving man stealing a loaf of bread. Does that make him a thief?

Yes. As far as what you "equate it to"... your feelings are completely irrelevant to the law.

Fair enough, but what should the punishment be? Send him to jail? This way he'll learn how to rob a bank instead of a bakery when he gets out.

Why do liberals hate bakeries so much?

(03-02-2015 12:23 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(03-01-2015 02:25 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  We rarely hear about the number of deaths we have in this country that can be attributed to illegals. Between their murders (and they use guns!!!) and their drunk driving manslaughters you'd think the left would be howling to do something about it.

Quote:Reacting to the murder of a young black man by an illegal immigrant, firebrand conservative columnist Ann Coulter argued on Fox News’ “Hannity” that for all the emphasis put on fighting ISIS, illegal aliens have killed a lot more Americans.

HOST SEAN HANNITY: Here’s a guy saying, do black lives really matter, or does it only matter if you’re shot by a white policeman or white person? In other words, why does the president stay silent when a black American is shot by an illegal immigrant, who was likely let out by his justice department.

COULTER: Right, and consider what a narrow category this is we’re hearing from today. These are illegal aliens already convicted of crimes in this country, scheduled for deportation, whom the Obama administration released and then went onto commit heinous crimes against yet more Americans. How about all non-citizens who are killing Americans in this country? Instead of #BlackLivesMatter, how about American lives matter? A lot more Americans are killed by immigrants than killed by ISIS. The number is four now, and as long as you don’t go to Syria, you’re safe from ISIS.


http://dailycaller.com/2015/02/25/ann-co...sis-video/

So this is the conservatives solution to immigration reform? To compare "illegals" to ISIS?

Wow. Just wow.

It's Walker all over again.

No comparison was made.

Wow. Just wow.

(03-02-2015 08:44 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:22 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:10 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  [quote='Kaplony' pid='11827120' dateline='1425319500']
Why do you put illegal in quotations? If they did not come to this country by the established legal way they are illegal immigrants and are criminals.

Perfect example of conservative whining on display here. Again as I've stated before in this thread. There is no realistic way for poor people from south of the border to come to the USA for work. Its the perfect example of the term: "pissing on you and tell you its raining". Does crossing the border without papers make people illegals?

Yes.

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  I guess in your eyes it does, but I personally equate it to a starving man stealing a loaf of bread. Does that make him a thief?

Yes. As far as what you "equate it to"... your feelings are completely irrelevant to the law.

Fair enough, but what should the punishment be? Send him to jail? This way he'll learn how to rob a bank instead of a bakery when he gets out.

Why do liberals hate bakeries so much?

I'm not a liberal and you didn't answer the question.

(03-02-2015 09:14 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 08:44 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:22 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:10 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  [quote='Kaplony' pid='11827120' dateline='1425319500']
Why do you put illegal in quotations? If they did not come to this country by the established legal way they are illegal immigrants and are criminals.

Perfect example of conservative whining on display here. Again as I've stated before in this thread. There is no realistic way for poor people from south of the border to come to the USA for work. Its the perfect example of the term: "pissing on you and tell you its raining". Does crossing the border without papers make people illegals?

Yes.

(03-02-2015 02:07 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  I guess in your eyes it does, but I personally equate it to a starving man stealing a loaf of bread. Does that make him a thief?

Yes. As far as what you "equate it to"... your feelings are completely irrelevant to the law.

Fair enough, but what should the punishment be? Send him to jail? This way he'll learn how to rob a bank instead of a bakery when he gets out.

Why do liberals hate bakeries so much?

I'm not a liberal and you didn't answer the question.

Yes, a guy stealing a loaf of bread is a thief. It's no different than mugging someone and using that money to buy a loaf of bread.

(03-02-2015 09:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 09:14 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 08:44 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:22 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:10 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Perfect example of conservative whining on display here. Again as I've stated before in this thread. There is no realistic way for poor people from south of the border to come to the USA for work. Its the perfect example of the term: "pissing on you and tell you its raining". Does crossing the border without papers make people illegals?

Yes.


Yes. As far as what you "equate it to"... your feelings are completely irrelevant to the law.

Fair enough, but what should the punishment be? Send him to jail? This way he'll learn how to rob a bank instead of a bakery when he gets out.

Why do liberals hate bakeries so much?

I'm not a liberal and you didn't answer the question.

Yes, a guy stealing a loaf of bread is a thief. It's no different than mugging someone and using that money to buy a loaf of bread.

The question was "What should the punishment be?" I've already conceded that a starving man stealing a loaf of bread should be a criminal. Even though I personally don't think it's necessarily immoral act since "a man's gotta eat" kinda thing.

(03-02-2015 10:01 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 09:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 09:14 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 08:44 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 02:22 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  Fair enough, but what should the punishment be? Send him to jail? This way he'll learn how to rob a bank instead of a bakery when he gets out.

Why do liberals hate bakeries so much?

I'm not a liberal and you didn't answer the question.

Yes, a guy stealing a loaf of bread is a thief. It's no different than mugging someone and using that money to buy a loaf of bread.

The question was "What should the punishment be?" I've already conceded that a starving man stealing a loaf of bread should be a criminal. Even though I personally don't think it's necessarily immoral act since "a man's gotta eat" kinda thing.

Sorry man, this thread is getting hard to follow. The punishment should be relative to the crime. A guy stealing bread should somehow make restitution to the person he stole it from and then some form of other punishment like community service or something.

(03-02-2015 10:06 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Sorry man, this thread is getting hard to follow. The punishment should be relative to the crime. A guy stealing bread should somehow make restitution to the person he stole it from and then some form of other punishment like community service or something.

I understand. Admittedly I'm not a very good writer and have ADD issues which lead my train though away from conversations sometimes. Here are some bullet points on where I stand on the immigration issue.

1. I'm against illegal immigration as much as anyone, just for different reasons than most conservatives.

2. While I concede that someone crossing the border without papers committed a crime, I don't necessarily think of them along the same lines as bank robber any of the real criminals.

3. I believe that there is demand for illegal aliens to come to work here and the fact that the vast majority of them are working speaks to that fact.

4. I believe that American people in general are in denial about its need and dependance of cheap labor. For decades now there have been laws in place that would curtail illegal immigration the fact that they are only selectively enforced speaks volumes about how much people want to keep the status quo.

5. I hate the fact that instead of actually discussing how to solve the problem, people instead resort to vilifying an entire segment of the population. It gets you nowhere and usually results in the "i'm right, you're wrong" conversation where everyone in the conversation thinks the other person is an idiot. If that's what you want have at it.

If the border was secure and there was a "work pass" program, people wouldn't have to smuggle themselves in and out of the country. That could be done immediately WITHOUT addressing the larger issues of earning citizenship. That is the proposal that should be put forward.

(03-02-2015 10:54 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 10:06 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Sorry man, this thread is getting hard to follow. The punishment should be relative to the crime. A guy stealing bread should somehow make restitution to the person he stole it from and then some form of other punishment like community service or something.

I understand. Admittedly I'm not a very good writer and have ADD issues which lead my train though away from conversations sometimes. Here are some bullet points on where I stand on the immigration issue.

1. I'm against illegal immigration as much as anyone, just for different reasons than most conservatives.

2. While I concede that someone crossing the border without papers committed a crime, I don't necessarily think of them along the same lines as bank robber any of the real criminals.

3. I believe that there is demand for illegal aliens to come to work here and the fact that the vast majority of them are working speaks to that fact.

4. I believe that American people in general are in denial about its need and dependance of cheap labor. For decades now there have been laws in place that would curtail illegal immigration the fact that they are only selectively enforced speaks volumes about how much people want to keep the status quo.

5. I hate the fact that instead of actually discussing how to solve the problem, people instead resort to vilifying an entire segment of the population. It gets you nowhere and usually results in the "i'm right, you're wrong" conversation where everyone in the conversation thinks the other person is an idiot. If that's what you want have at it.

Exactly the way I think. Maybe it'll sink in. Remember the only ones that can complain are the Native Americans because EVERYONE AND HIS ANCESTORS migrated here. Heck, even the Native Americans who came from Asia through the Bering Strait.

I'm part Native American and you don't hear me complain.

(03-02-2015 08:30 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 06:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 06:30 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 05:04 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Yes to both.

If you don't like that lobby congress to change the federal immigration law. Up until they do change the law if someone enters the country in contrary to the established legal methods proscribed by law they are illegal immigrants and criminals no matter how much you whine about it.

Well I do concede that I've yet to write my congressman about it. I guess I will do that one of these days. Then my question would be what would you have us do about it. Kick them out of our country? I'm cool with that. How?

First thing I would do is empower the state and local agencies that have received the training from ICE to have the authority to enforce the law and offer the training to any agency that wants it. That instantly multiplies the manpower available to enforce the existing statutes without costing the taxpayers any additional money. You can also authorize the border states to utilize their National Guard to patrol the border if they so desire.

Second, speed up the deportation process. The hearing should be a formality anyway. Unless you are claiming political asylum if you did not enter the country in the legal manner your next stop should be your home country. There is no release awaiting the deportation hearing....you sit in jail until you get one. If you ever enter the country illegally you are prohibited from entering the country legally for 10 years. A third time? Life at hard labor.

Third, if you are caught a second time entering the country illegally you are sentenced to five years in a prison labor camp without parole. When you finish your five years you are immediately deported.

Fourth, companies and/or individuals that hire illegals are fined $100,000 a pop and the hiring authority serves five years in prison. Increase the fine and prison time with every violation.

Fifth, streamline the legal immigration process. The legal process is far too long and too complicated right now and is a big reason why illegal immigration is a problem.

Some of those laws are already in place. Example: if you are deported you can't come back legally for 10 years with jail time if caught, and technically there are already fines and/or jail time of hiring illegals. The only things I disagree with are in making fourth and fifth 1st and 2nd. Mainly because it would reduce costs even more on need for deportations. I would also add some sort of liaison-organization between social security, irs, homeland security and employers. This way it would make it easier for the employer to make sure the SSN is valid and that the potential employee is who he/she really is. I would allow a one year grace period to allow employers and "employees" to leave voluntarily.
Now we just have to figure out what we (Americans) are going to do about all those vegetables that are going to be left rotting on the field for lack of hands to pick them, all those cows and chickens that will live long past their prime for lack of hands to process them. Not to mention houses that won't get built, lawns that won't get cut, etc, etc. BTW I'm not mentioning this to be ironic or facetious in any way, rather it is a very real problem that has to be addressed. This is why I like 'Owl69/70/75' approach the best because it does address this issue even though he didn't mention it.

Those tasks will get done by the same people who did it before illegal immigrants came in willing to do then for less than minimum wage.

(03-02-2015 10:54 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 10:06 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Sorry man, this thread is getting hard to follow. The punishment should be relative to the crime. A guy stealing bread should somehow make restitution to the person he stole it from and then some form of other punishment like community service or something.

I understand. Admittedly I'm not a very good writer and have ADD issues which lead my train though away from conversations sometimes. Here are some bullet points on where I stand on the immigration issue.

1. I'm against illegal immigration as much as anyone, just for different reasons than most conservatives.

2. While I concede that someone crossing the border without papers committed a crime, I don't necessarily think of them along the same lines as bank robber any of the real criminals.

3. I believe that there is demand for illegal aliens to come to work here and the fact that the vast majority of them are working speaks to that fact.

4. I believe that American people in general are in denial about its need and dependance of cheap labor. For decades now there have been laws in place that would curtail illegal immigration the fact that they are only selectively enforced speaks volumes about how much people want to keep the status quo.

5. I hate the fact that instead of actually discussing how to solve the problem, people instead resort to vilifying an entire segment of the population. It gets you nowhere and usually results in the "i'm right, you're wrong" conversation where everyone in the conversation thinks the other person is an idiot. If that's what you want have at it.

I can appreciate the fact that local circumstances, be it safety or employment are what motivate people to cross the boarder. I completely understand that illegals do not see a viable future in their native country and would rather live in limbo in the US because at least their children would be Americans. Despite all of this I don't think it's too much to ask for those who want to work in America to enter the country using the doors and not the windows.

(03-03-2015 08:57 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 10:54 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  

(03-02-2015 10:06 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Sorry man, this thread is getting hard to follow. The punishment should be relative to the crime. A guy stealing bread should somehow make restitution to the person he stole it from and then some form of other punishment like community service or something.

I understand. Admittedly I'm not a very good writer and have ADD issues which lead my train though away from conversations sometimes. Here are some bullet points on where I stand on the immigration issue.

1. I'm against illegal immigration as much as anyone, just for different reasons than most conservatives.

2. While I concede that someone crossing the border without papers committed a crime, I don't necessarily think of them along the same lines as bank robber any of the real criminals.

3. I believe that there is demand for illegal aliens to come to work here and the fact that the vast majority of them are working speaks to that fact.

4. I believe that American people in general are in denial about its need and dependance of cheap labor. For decades now there have been laws in place that would curtail illegal immigration the fact that they are only selectively enforced speaks volumes about how much people want to keep the status quo.

5. I hate the fact that instead of actually discussing how to solve the problem, people instead resort to vilifying an entire segment of the population. It gets you nowhere and usually results in the "i'm right, you're wrong" conversation where everyone in the conversation thinks the other person is an idiot. If that's what you want have at it.

I can appreciate the fact that local circumstances, be it safety or employment are what motivate people to cross the boarder. I completely understand that illegals do not see a viable future in their native country and would rather live in limbo in the US because at least their children would be Americans. Despite all of this I don't think it's too much to ask for those who want to work in America to enter the country using the doors and not the windows.

you have to understand that, if you want to come to live and work in the USA, the only options are: marriage to a US citizen, have a degree with a shortage of workers in the US or have half-a-million* or more dollars to invest. Those are the only legal options.
Now imagine a guy getting $7-10/day working all day and that person hears that, in the USA, he can get $7-10/hr. That's a hell of a motivation to come here. If he has to swim or cross a border to get to the "big money" then so be it.
As long as there is a demand for low wage workers with no viable option for those people to come here legally there will always be illegal immigration. It is what it is, that's just the reality of the situation. Illegal immigration is very similar to the drug war in that aspect.

* that number is pre-9/11 it may or may not have gone up or down for that matter. I'd rather not spend the time researching it.