(12-14-2014 09:52 AM)wbrady11 Wrote:  Dont think memphis will go but Cincinnati might. Either big 12 or one day acc

Based on what?

The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

(12-14-2014 11:41 AM)jfisher Wrote:  The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

You believe that?

(12-14-2014 11:56 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:41 AM)jfisher Wrote:  The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

You believe that?

2 teams have to bring in at a minimum of $50 million to not dilute. There just arent two teams that do that right now. After 2016 when the Big 10 gets their new TV contract, then the Big 12 has a new position to negotiate from the standpoint that the market has changed... until then, I dont see the Big 12 making a move.

(12-12-2014 04:19 PM)YNot Wrote:  IMO, the following are the principal factors that he Big 12 and its TV PARTNERS are looking at for expansion candidates, in order of importance:

A) National Brand and ability to drive TV ratings
B) Football Program - including recent history and tradition
C) TV Markets
D) Revenue (this exemplifies A through C)
E) Home Game Attendance (this exemplifies B)
F) New Recruiting Markets
G) Student Body/Alumni Potential
H Facilities
I) Basketball Program
J) Academics

Here is how each of the categories break down. I'd appreciate some input, as some of the lists and the order of importance are obviously subjective.

A) NATIONAL BRAND/TV RATINGS
2014 Ratings for NonP5 v. NonP5 games:
1) Boise St. - .91/6.4 million viewers
2) BYU - .90/6.3 million
3) Fresno St. - .79/3.2 million
4) UConn - .64/4.5 million (played both BYU and Boise St.)
5) UCF -.58/3.5 million
6) Cincinnati - .50/2.5 million viewers
[western teams have the ability to fill the later night TV slots]

B) FOOTBALL PROGRAM
1) Boise St. - BCS Bowl Wins
2) BYU - National Championship, Heisman
3) Cincinnati - BCS Bowls
4a) UCF - BCS Bowl win
4b) UConn - BCS bowls
6a) ECU- top 25 rankings
6b) USF- top 25 rankings
6c) Fresno St.- top 25 rankings
9a) Navy
9b) Houston

C) TV MARKETS:
1) Temple - 2.9 million TV households
2) USF - 1.8 million TV households
3a) Colorado St. - 1.5 million TV households
3b) UCF - 1.4 million TV households
5a) Navy - 1.09 million TV households
5b) SDSU - 1.05 million TV households
7) UConn - 968K TV households
8a) BYU - 897K TV households
8b) Cincinnati - 876K TV households
10a) UNLV - 718K TV households
10b) New Mexico - 679K TV households
10c) Memphis - 653K TV households
10d) Tulane - 641K TV households

D) REVENUE (after subsidy):
1) BYU - $54 million
2) SMU - $52 million
3) UCONN - $44 million
4a) Cincinnati - $41.6 million
4b) Temple $41.5 million
6) Navy - $41 million
7) UNLV - $40.7 million
8a) Air Force - $38.5 million
8b) New Mexico - $38.3 million
10a) Army - 36.8 million
10b) Boise St. - $36.1 million

E) Home Game Attendance (3-yr AVG):
1) BYU - 60K
2) ECU - 47K
3) USF - 41K
4) UCF - 36K
5a) SDSU - 34.6K
5b) Boise St. - 34.5K
7a) Navy - 34.1K
7b) UConn - 34K
9a) Air Force - 33K
9b) Army - 33K
11) Fresno St. - 32K
12) Cincinnati - 31K

F) NEW RECRUITING MARKETS
1a) UCF
1b) USF
3a) SDSU
3b) Fresno St.
5) Cincinnati
6a) Tulane
6b) Memphis
8a) Temple
8b) Navy

G) STUDENT BODY/ALUMNI POTENTIAL
1) UCF - 50K
2) FIU - 37K
3a) Houston - 32K
3b) BYU - 31K
3c) SJSU - 31K
3d) UTSA - 30K
3e) USF - 30K
3f) Buffalo - 29K
9a) Temple - 27K
9b) Umass - 27K
9c) SDSU - 26K

H) FACILITIES:
1) BYU - 64K on-campus stadium
2a) SDSU - 70K NFL stadium
2b) Temple - 68K NFL stadium
2c) USF - 65K NFL stadium
5) Memphis 62K off-campus stadium
6) ECU - 50K on-campus stadium
7a) Air Force 46K stadium
7b) UCF - 45K stadium
7c) Fresno St. - 41K on-campus stadium
7d) UConn - 40K stadium

I) BASKETBALL PROGRAM
1) UConn
2a) Memphis
2b) Cincinnati
4a) Temple
4b) SDSU
4c) UNLV
7a) New Mexico
7b) BYU
7c) Houston

J) ACADEMICS
1a) Tulane - AAU
1b) Rice - AAU
1c) Buffalo - AAU
4) SMU
5) BYU
6) UConn
7) Colorado St.
8) New Mexico

For a Conference that owns it's own TV channel(PAC12) getting into new markets is #1, then you can get on cable etc. in that area and receive a % from all subscribers in that market whether they watch or not.

For a Conference that does NOT own it's own TV channel(B12) it is all about eyeballs, the more people who actually watch, not how many homes are in the area is the key, it is all about advertising dollars, the more actual viewers, the more the station(ESPN, etc.) can charge for advertising, the more valuable you are to that station.

If your team is located in an area that all ready has the PAC12 channel, the PAC12 already get fees from all subscribers in that area and the PAC12 has zero incentive to add that team, no matter how many people live there.

(12-14-2014 01:54 PM)mtmedlin Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:56 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:41 AM)jfisher Wrote:  The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

You believe that?

2 teams have to bring in at a minimum of $50 million to not dilute. There just arent two teams that do that right now. After 2016 when the Big 10 gets their new TV contract, then the Big 12 has a new position to negotiate from the standpoint that the market has changed... until then, I dont see the Big 12 making a move.

We will see March

(12-14-2014 11:56 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:41 AM)jfisher Wrote:  The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

You believe that?

Yes.

(12-14-2014 02:31 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:56 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:41 AM)jfisher Wrote:  The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

You believe that?

Yes.

lol why? Do you really think the B12 is going to tell the Dallas Paper, McMurphy, or anybody else in the media their plans RIGHT after getting hosed out of the playoff due to their own bad decisions leading up to this year??? Further, do you think they would publicly lay out their plans so other conferences could see and possibly make a move before the B12 is ready???

LOL wow, gullibility is strong in this one.

(12-14-2014 01:54 PM)mtmedlin Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:56 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:41 AM)jfisher Wrote:  The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

You believe that?

2 teams have to bring in at a minimum of $50 million to not dilute. There just arent two teams that do that right now. After 2016 when the Big 10 gets their new TV contract, then the Big 12 has a new position to negotiate from the standpoint that the market has changed... until then, I dont see the Big 12 making a move.

Could someone please quantify for me the value of a team. Some say the addition of a conference championship game will create 50 million in new revenue. This does not even take into account the value of the team in basketball and football, extra content, nccaa basketball credits, expansion into new markets, better opportunity for playoff money.... I keep seeing people parrot about 25 million per team, but offer no more information. If the Big 12 wants to insulate itself from possible future defections, it probably should work to take a different direction then the pattern set by the Big East.

(12-12-2014 11:54 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Haven't we already had dozens of these threads? Was it really necessary to start another saying the exact same thing?

With that said, the Big 12 is obviously #5 of the P5. Further diluting it with schools of little value (see the AAC's TV deal if you disagree) would not magically move them up the totem pole. If UT and OU are on the verge of the top 4, you better believe they won't be left out. Therefore, no, I don't think they feel the pressure to expand.

Sorry, but you're crazy if you think that the ACC is a better conference than the BIG 12! And I would also say that the BIG 12 is better than the B1G 10 so they are far from #5 in the P5! They are at least #4 if not #3 easily.

(12-14-2014 02:44 PM)rosewater Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 01:54 PM)mtmedlin Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:56 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:41 AM)jfisher Wrote:  The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

You believe that?

2 teams have to bring in at a minimum of $50 million to not dilute. There just arent two teams that do that right now. After 2016 when the Big 10 gets their new TV contract, then the Big 12 has a new position to negotiate from the standpoint that the market has changed... until then, I dont see the Big 12 making a move.

Could someone please quantify for me the value of a team. Some say the addition of a conference championship game will create 50 million in new revenue. This does not even take into account the value of the team in basketball and football, extra content, nccaa basketball credits, expansion into new markets, better opportunity for playoff money.... I keep seeing people parrot about 25 million per team, but offer no more information. If the Big 12 wants to insulate itself from possible future defections, it probably should work to take a different direction then the pattern set by the Big East.

BIG 12 has a GOR for its tv revenue. I don't think they have to really worry that much about future deflections unless it's Texas!

(12-14-2014 07:42 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-12-2014 11:54 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Haven't we already had dozens of these threads? Was it really necessary to start another saying the exact same thing?

With that said, the Big 12 is obviously #5 of the P5. Further diluting it with schools of little value (see the AAC's TV deal if you disagree) would not magically move them up the totem pole. If UT and OU are on the verge of the top 4, you better believe they won't be left out. Therefore, no, I don't think they feel the pressure to expand.

Sorry, but you're crazy if you think that the ACC is a better conference than the BIG 12! And I would also say that the BIG 12 is better than the B1G 10 so they are far from #5 in the P5! They are at least #4 if not #3 easily.

Sorry, but I am dumber for having read that.

Right, the Big 12 is so much better than the B1G that Nebraska left the Big 12 for the B1G. The Big 12 exists solely to appease UT and OU. The second those two decide they want to move to the Pac or the B1G, the Big 12 goes the way of the SWC.

Don't let the 0.0000001% chance of ECU ever joining the Big 12 cloud your judgment.

(12-14-2014 07:46 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:42 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-12-2014 11:54 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Haven't we already had dozens of these threads? Was it really necessary to start another saying the exact same thing?

With that said, the Big 12 is obviously #5 of the P5. Further diluting it with schools of little value (see the AAC's TV deal if you disagree) would not magically move them up the totem pole. If UT and OU are on the verge of the top 4, you better believe they won't be left out. Therefore, no, I don't think they feel the pressure to expand.

Sorry, but you're crazy if you think that the ACC is a better conference than the BIG 12! And I would also say that the BIG 12 is better than the B1G 10 so they are far from #5 in the P5! They are at least #4 if not #3 easily.

Sorry, but I am dumber for having read that.

Right, the Big 12 is so much better than the B1G that Nebraska and Mizzou left the Big 12 for the B1G. .......

Hate to interrupt while you're on a roll, but Mizzou joined the SEC.

(12-14-2014 07:49 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:46 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:42 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-12-2014 11:54 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Haven't we already had dozens of these threads? Was it really necessary to start another saying the exact same thing?

With that said, the Big 12 is obviously #5 of the P5. Further diluting it with schools of little value (see the AAC's TV deal if you disagree) would not magically move them up the totem pole. If UT and OU are on the verge of the top 4, you better believe they won't be left out. Therefore, no, I don't think they feel the pressure to expand.

Sorry, but you're crazy if you think that the ACC is a better conference than the BIG 12! And I would also say that the BIG 12 is better than the B1G 10 so they are far from #5 in the P5! They are at least #4 if not #3 easily.

Sorry, but I am dumber for having read that.

Right, the Big 12 is so much better than the B1G that Nebraska and Mizzou left the Big 12 for the B1G. .......

Hate to interrupt while you're on a roll, but Mizzou joined the SEC.

You're right. Sorry, it's hard to keep up with all of those defections from the "3rd best" P5 conference. I will edit Mizzou out of my original post.

EH, hes not totally wrong. If you were to look at conferences economically, the Big 12 would be about 3rd... sort of. If Income is the measurement of worth then the Big 12 would temporarily be 2nd or 3rd.

You have to remember that they distributed about $22 million last year, but they also each have their own 3rd tier rights. Texas makes $11 million ($33 total) OU made about $10 million ($32 total) WVU made over $9 ($31 total) Kansas made a bit over $7 ($29 total). Then you get down to the bottom which is ISU which only made about $3 ($25 total).

If you average them, then the Big 12 is 3rd, ahead of the Pac and ACC. Given, as the PAC12 network grows and gets more distribution, they will move ahead, and the SEC will will get their network income next year. The Big 10 gets their new 1st tier in 2016. At that point it will be Big 10, SEC, Pac12, Big 12, and ACC.... followed by AAC, MWC, CUSA, MAC, Sunbelt.

(12-14-2014 07:46 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:42 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-12-2014 11:54 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Haven't we already had dozens of these threads? Was it really necessary to start another saying the exact same thing?

With that said, the Big 12 is obviously #5 of the P5. Further diluting it with schools of little value (see the AAC's TV deal if you disagree) would not magically move them up the totem pole. If UT and OU are on the verge of the top 4, you better believe they won't be left out. Therefore, no, I don't think they feel the pressure to expand.

Sorry, but you're crazy if you think that the ACC is a better conference than the BIG 12! And I would also say that the BIG 12 is better than the B1G 10 so they are far from #5 in the P5! They are at least #4 if not #3 easily.

Sorry, but I am dumber for having read that.

Right, the Big 12 is so much better than the B1G that Nebraska left the Big 12 for the B1G. The Big 12 exists solely to appease UT and OU. The second those two decide they want to move to the Pac or the B1G, the Big 12 goes the way of the SWC.

Don't let the 0.0000001% chance of ECU ever joining the Big 12 cloud your judgment.

Hey moron just going by facts! Not to even mention the product they put on the field is much better than ACC and BIG 10 their revenue is also better than others. There is no way the BIG 12 is the worst P5 conference. I have no delusions about ECU joining the BIG 12. In fact I have never thought that we had a chance but I guess thats the only argument you have to try and make your silly point.

(12-15-2014 06:59 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:46 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:42 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-12-2014 11:54 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Haven't we already had dozens of these threads? Was it really necessary to start another saying the exact same thing?

With that said, the Big 12 is obviously #5 of the P5. Further diluting it with schools of little value (see the AAC's TV deal if you disagree) would not magically move them up the totem pole. If UT and OU are on the verge of the top 4, you better believe they won't be left out. Therefore, no, I don't think they feel the pressure to expand.

Sorry, but you're crazy if you think that the ACC is a better conference than the BIG 12! And I would also say that the BIG 12 is better than the B1G 10 so they are far from #5 in the P5! They are at least #4 if not #3 easily.

Sorry, but I am dumber for having read that.

Right, the Big 12 is so much better than the B1G that Nebraska left the Big 12 for the B1G. The Big 12 exists solely to appease UT and OU. The second those two decide they want to move to the Pac or the B1G, the Big 12 goes the way of the SWC.

Don't let the 0.0000001% chance of ECU ever joining the Big 12 cloud your judgment.

Hey moron just going by facts! Not to even mention the product they put on the field is much better than ACC and BIG 10 their revenue is also better than others. There is no way the BIG 12 is the worst P5 conference. I have no delusions about ECU joining the BIG 12. In fact I have never thought that we had a chance but I guess thats the only argument you have to try and make your silly point.

So, in summary:

I'm trusting the market to tell me the pecking order. The Big 12 has lost schools to the PAC, B1G, and SEC, and failed to lure Louisville among others (Clemson and Florida State, I believe) from the ACC. All the while, their only two, true assets are perpetually rumored to be looking for greener pastures, which would undoubtedly cause the Big 12 to dissolve.

And.. you are going off the product on the (football) field, which is subjective, and varies from year to year, and TV revenue, which is renegotiated at different times, and will also change over time.

I think it's pretty fair to say that the SEC, PAC, and B1G are all head and shoulders above the rest. So, we're really only arguing over the ACC vs. Big 12, in which case I'd ask you this: Which is more likely to exist 10 years from now?

(12-14-2014 02:33 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 02:31 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:56 AM)Ramen_Tiger Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 11:41 AM)jfisher Wrote:  The Dallas Morning News says no one goes......no new teams would actually benefit B-12 financially!!!

You believe that?

Yes.

lol why? Do you really think the B12 is going to tell the Dallas Paper, McMurphy, or anybody else in the media their plans RIGHT after getting hosed out of the playoff due to their own bad decisions leading up to this year??? Further, do you think they would publicly lay out their plans so other conferences could see and possibly make a move before the B12 is ready???

LOL wow, gullibility is strong in this one.

i think they all know that the playoff system caused this and a committee shouldn't decide who the 4 best teams are the goddamm grid iron should. it looked like the old bcs for christ sakes.

(12-15-2014 07:35 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-15-2014 06:59 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:46 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:42 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-12-2014 11:54 AM)Kronke Wrote:  Haven't we already had dozens of these threads? Was it really necessary to start another saying the exact same thing?

With that said, the Big 12 is obviously #5 of the P5. Further diluting it with schools of little value (see the AAC's TV deal if you disagree) would not magically move them up the totem pole. If UT and OU are on the verge of the top 4, you better believe they won't be left out. Therefore, no, I don't think they feel the pressure to expand.

Sorry, but you're crazy if you think that the ACC is a better conference than the BIG 12! And I would also say that the BIG 12 is better than the B1G 10 so they are far from #5 in the P5! They are at least #4 if not #3 easily.

Sorry, but I am dumber for having read that.

Right, the Big 12 is so much better than the B1G that Nebraska left the Big 12 for the B1G. The Big 12 exists solely to appease UT and OU. The second those two decide they want to move to the Pac or the B1G, the Big 12 goes the way of the SWC.

Don't let the 0.0000001% chance of ECU ever joining the Big 12 cloud your judgment.

Hey moron just going by facts! Not to even mention the product they put on the field is much better than ACC and BIG 10 their revenue is also better than others. There is no way the BIG 12 is the worst P5 conference. I have no delusions about ECU joining the BIG 12. In fact I have never thought that we had a chance but I guess thats the only argument you have to try and make your silly point.

So, in summary:

I'm trusting the market to tell me the pecking order. The Big 12 has lost schools to the PAC, B1G, and SEC, and failed to lure Louisville among others (Clemson and Florida State, I believe) from the ACC. All the while, their only two, true assets are perpetually rumored to be looking for greener pastures, which would undoubtedly cause the Big 12 to dissolve.

And.. you are going off the product on the (football) field, which is subjective, and varies from year to year, and TV revenue, which is renegotiated at different times, and will also change over time.

I think it's pretty fair to say that the SEC, PAC, and B1G are all head and shoulders above the rest. So, we're really only arguing over the ACC vs. Big 12, in which case I'd ask you this: Which is more likely to exist 10 years from now?

Most of those schools left the BIG 12 because of Texas and the Longhorn Network and because the BIG 12 didn't have the balls to step up to Texas. Just because a conference loses a team doesn't mean that every other conference that doesn't is a better conference. The ACC has also lost teams and is only able to poach from the AAC. Yes Texas has created instability within the BIG 12 in the past that has hurt the conference, which should now be a done deal because they have all signed over their TV revenue to the conference. Either way, your argument that the BIG 12 is the last of the P5 conferences is just flat wrong.

(12-15-2014 06:59 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:46 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-14-2014 07:42 PM)Mikeyp Wrote:  

(12-12-2014 11:54 AM)Kronke Wrote:  

Hey moron just going by facts! Not to even mention the product they put on the field is much better than ACC and BIG 10 their revenue is also better than others. There is no way the BIG 12 is the worst P5 conference. I have no delusions about ECU joining the BIG 12. In fact I have never thought that we had a chance but I guess thats the only argument you have to try and make your silly point.

I agree they are not the worst, but they are the weakest. There is security in #s. The ACC is in some ways the odd duck of the P5. They are built around BB more so than FB.