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^ you used to drone on about BK the same way, minimizing his accomplishments and said he wAs the master of inheriting good situations. Please.

(07-25-2014 09:59 AM)DesertBronco Wrote:  ^ you used to drone on about BK the same way, minimizing his accomplishments and said he wAs the master of inheriting good situations. Please.

BK didn't inherit a winner. Stop making chit up.

He did however shield a group of murderers, and was okay with "no snitching" values, because it provided him cover. Now Butch, he inherited something both in Mt. Pee, and Cincy.

You said it constantly.

(07-25-2014 09:39 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(07-25-2014 09:29 AM)Broncobelt Wrote:  Not even close

Losing NFL franchise versus nationally ranked BCS program.

Offensive coordinator versus positions coach

One takes over an 0-12 program while the other a 4-8 with some life.

One has proven HC experience with one of the top DII programs in the country. The other was a DI OC for a day before resigning.

Not much in common there.

Everything you stated up there is subjective and debatable IMO. Two ways of looking at it. You look at it one way, I look at it another.

Everything belt posted is a fact, there's noting subjective about them.

In another post you said you were all about facts, Hokey - yet you can't even recognize them.

(07-25-2014 11:22 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  

(07-25-2014 09:39 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(07-25-2014 09:29 AM)Broncobelt Wrote:  Not even close

Losing NFL franchise versus nationally ranked BCS program.

Offensive coordinator versus positions coach

One takes over an 0-12 program while the other a 4-8 with some life.

One has proven HC experience with one of the top DII programs in the country. The other was a DI OC for a day before resigning.

Not much in common there.

Everything you stated up there is subjective and debatable IMO. Two ways of looking at it. You look at it one way, I look at it another.

Everything belt posted is a fact, there's noting subjective about them.

In another post you said you were all about facts, Hokey - yet you can't even recognize them.

Since (once again) I have to spell it out for you people...

"Losing NFL franchise versus nationally ranked BCS program."

Tampa Bay was 4-12 the year before Schiano took over and Fleck joined his staff. They improved to a 7-9 record in 2012. Attendance improved (that's a fact, look it up). Furthermore, Vincent Jackson (who Fleck coached) set multiple franchise records for a WR, and was even selected to the Pro Bowl to replace the Megatron. Jackson finished the 2012 season with career-highs in receptions (72) and receiving yards (1,384).

"Offensive coordinator versus positions coach"

2012 Notre Dame offense:
48th in the nation in total yards
80th in the country in PPG

2013 Notre Dame offense:
64th in the nation in total yards
75th in the nation in yards per game

Not exactly setting the world on fire there.

Fleck has been more than just a "positions coach". He's been a player, coach and recruiting coordinator in the MAC, and he's been a player, coach, and scout in the NFL.

"One takes over an 0-12 program while the other a 4-8 with some life."

One takes over an 0-12 program with a historically good football program (nicknamed the "cradle of coaches, 15 MAC championships, 7 bowl wins) while the other takes on a reeling 4-8 program stuck in neutral (no history, 2 MAC championships in '66 and '88 only, 0 bowl wins)

"One has proven HC experience with one of the top DII programs in the country. The other was a DI OC for a day before resigning."

Martin has never built a program from the ground up. He sustained what Kelly built at GVSU. Kelly was (and is) the reason GVSU is now one of the top DII programs in the country. The other decided he'd rather accept an attractive offer from one of his coaching mentors in the NFL, double his salary, and get experience coaching and scouting in the NFL. Can you blame him?

So yeah, this can easily go in two different directions. Look, I can "spin" just like you guys!

I like Martins upside better.

"You people"? Really? GVSU was a big time program at their level before BK too.

(07-25-2014 11:49 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Since (once again) I have to spell it out for you people...

"Losing NFL franchise versus nationally ranked BCS program."

Tampa Bay was 4-12 the year before Schiano took over and Fleck joined his staff. They improved to a 7-9 record in 2012. Attendance improved (that's a fact, look it up). Furthermore, Vincent Jackson (who Fleck coached) set multiple franchise records for a WR, and was even selected to the Pro Bowl to replace the Megatron. Jackson finished the 2012 season with career-highs in receptions (72) and receiving yards (1,384).

"Offensive coordinator versus positions coach"

2012 Notre Dame offense:
48th in the nation in total yards
80th in the country in PPG

2013 Notre Dame offense:
64th in the nation in total yards
75th in the nation in yards per game

Not exactly setting the world on fire there.

Fleck has been more than just a "positions coach". He's been a player, coach and recruiting coordinator in the MAC, and he's been a player, coach, and scout in the NFL.

"One takes over an 0-12 program while the other a 4-8 with some life."

One takes over an 0-12 program with a historically good football program (nicknamed the "cradle of coaches, 15 MAC championships, 7 bowl wins) while the other takes on a reeling 4-8 program stuck in neutral (no history, 2 MAC championships in '66 and '88 only, 0 bowl wins)

"One has proven HC experience with one of the top DII programs in the country. The other was a DI OC for a day before resigning."

Martin has never built a program from the ground up. He sustained what Kelly built at GVSU. Kelly was (and is) the reason GVSU is now one of the top DII programs in the country. The other decided he'd rather accept an attractive offer from one of his coaching mentors in the NFL, double his salary, and get experience coaching and scouting in the NFL. Can you blame him?

So yeah, this can easily go in two different directions. Look, I can "spin" just like you guys!

belt said the paths the two coaches took were different.

you said, "nope", they're the same; you can substitute "NFL franchise" for "college football program"

Now you're saying they're different in your last post.

do you even know what point you're trying to prove? Sounds like anything you say is just to keep the toes on the line.

I long for the days where the last thing we "debate" on this board is our HC.

(07-25-2014 12:27 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  "You people"? Really? GVSU was a big time program at their level before BK too.

Yup. Their success goes all the way back to the Harkema days. I think BK took over from Beck who got them into the playoffs. Bk just took them to the next level.

Now, where have we heard that before???

Hoekey - Nothing in your long winded post disproved any of the facts I stated. For that matter, you confirmed all of them and just added your own spin.

(07-25-2014 09:42 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  Martin has never built anything.

He's coached in two programs that are self sustaining. A trained monkey could get enough talent at ND to succeed.

If that were true what was Jerry Faust's problem?

Or Walts. Or....

Martin's cumulative record is impeccable, and puts Fleck's - and most other MAC coaches' - historical accounts to shame. I'm sure Miami's prize is creating some forms of envy.

But new coaches are like new recruits. They may have gaudy resumes that create some excitement, but there's no guarantee of success at the new gig. Especially considering that at GVSU and Notre Dame, these schools can sell themselves to stud recruits on their powerful names alone (within their respective divisions).

But the point here wasn't about Martin's resume or capabilities. It was him making a series of cut-downs about another school's program at a press conference. Indeed, much of what Fleck has done ("elite," oar symbols, youtube videos, new traditions, unattainable predictions, etc.) deserves chuckles and ridicule. But what's funny on a fan message board or sports column comes across as kind of douchey from another head coach. One who's a noob in the conference, no less.

(07-25-2014 01:01 PM)Broncobelt Wrote:  

(07-25-2014 09:42 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  Martin has never built anything.

He's coached in two programs that are self sustaining. A trained monkey could get enough talent at ND to succeed.

If that were true what was Jerry Faust's problem?

Faust was a poorly trained monkey. Seriously though we've all seen a fair amount of big time assistants come into the MAC and not be successful because they couldn't adapt to not having superior resources. DeBord is a classic example. I like Martins resume better than Flecks too and my first thought when he went to Miami was: Expletive! I thought he wouldn't coach in the MAC. Would have loved to have had him here, but I wouldn't say he's a slam dunk either.

I'd rather discuss why Chuck Martin turned down WMU 18 months ago...and went with Miami 12 months later. Did THAT much change in 12 months for him?

I simply said what belt posted was completely subjective and there are two different ways of looking at it all. I didn't say one was right over the other.

Read.

(07-25-2014 01:14 PM)EA3 Wrote:  I'd rather discuss why Chuck Martin turned down WMU 18 months ago...and went with Miami 12 months later. Did THAT much change in 12 months for him?

From what I read on here, for what it's worth, evidently he didn't like the manner of how Cubit was let go, so wouldn't consider WMU. If that's the case, probably helps explain his Media Day shtick about Fleck.

(07-25-2014 01:14 PM)EA3 Wrote:  I'd rather discuss why Chuck Martin turned down WMU 18 months ago...and went with Miami 12 months later. Did THAT much change in 12 months for him?

That's obvious and an elephant in the room.

(07-25-2014 01:17 PM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

(07-25-2014 01:14 PM)EA3 Wrote:  I'd rather discuss why Chuck Martin turned down WMU 18 months ago...and went with Miami 12 months later. Did THAT much change in 12 months for him?

From what I read on here, for what it's worth, evidently he didn't like the manner of how Cubit was let go, so wouldn't consider WMU. If that's the case, probably helps explain his Media Day shtick about Fleck.

That is utter nonsense. The manner in which Cubit was let go is not atypical from how this profession works. The median length of a head coaching tenure in FBS is 3.8 years. Cubit had almost twice that at WMU. If Martin didn't like Cubits treatment he would have a hard time finding a place to work in major college football.