(04-26-2013 04:13 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(04-26-2013 03:26 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  SLU is almost a perfect institutional and demographic fit with a large market that Fox cares about, to boot.

Sure, but if you're going to break the seal on that precious institutional fit, why not "whole ass" it and get the most bang for your buck? There's a symmetry to it, geographically, and you get another FF team with a far better track record. Oh, and another of the nation's brighter coaches who's already mostly proven.

As for Fox, SLU hoops has less than nothing to do with FS1 carriage in STL (or MO for that matter). They've got it more than covered. As far as viewership goes, I'm dubious that either SLU or WSU has a clear structural advantage when it comes to drawing eyeballs. Seems like a tossup, tilting towards the larger school.


Fox Sports Midwest is the St. Louis Cardinals and everybody else. They could name it Fox Sports Cardinals and the viewership in the STL market would go up.

FS1 carriage won't have much to do with its regional sports net carriage, though. They're two separate entities. In theory, Fox might use its Fox Sports Midwest leverage to get more carriage fees for FS1 in that area, but it's uncertain whether that will happen.

Anyway, Wichita State (as much as I enjoy watching them) just doesn't fit at all. Look at the actions of the Big East presidents. If there's a debate about VCU (which is close to the East Coast footprint of the conference), there's just no way that Wichita State has a chance at all. SLU brings in a ton of students from and sends a ton of alums to Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and the Ohio markets, whereas there's almost zero cross-pollination between Wichita State and every other market in the league. SLU also isn't a small school despite being private. It has around 8500 undergrads and 2500 grad students (with kids coming from around the country) compared to 11,000 undergrads and 3000 grad students at Wichita State (with kids coming almost completely from the state of Kansas), so they actually aren't even that far apart in size. At the end of the day, there are no network effects and it's a small market public school. Wichita State has a great basketball program, but that's simply only one factor. The Big East is clearly about being in big markets and probably all private schools, so Wichita State is the antithesis of that. George Mason couldn't even make a move out of the CAA until several A-10 defections despite having a Final Four run, top notch academics and a great location in Northern Virginia. Wichita State is in a way worse position compared to George Mason by conference realignment metrics.

That's a good point. Thought they were closer to 20k. I still think their coach and their program is more proven than SLU's. I also think you're sleeping on the network effect value of bringing in a rivalry that's already baked into the cake. No matter how you slice it, #11 and #12 aren't gonna measurably move the needle in Chicago.

(04-26-2013 05:49 PM)thegalen Wrote:  That's a good point. Thought they were closer to 20k. I still think their coach and their program is more proven than SLU's. I also think you're sleeping on the network effect value of bringing in a rivalry that's already baked into the cake. No matter how you slice it, #11 and #12 aren't gonna measurably move the needle in Chicago.

Current university goals involve increasing enrollment to around 20,000 students. The university had more students in the 80s, and had a slight drop after the football program was dropped. The enrollment hasn't really risen back to previous levels until the last few years. The new President seems committed to change and is intent on adding a lot of on-campus housing.

(04-26-2013 05:49 PM)thegalen Wrote:  That's a good point. Thought they were closer to 20k. I still think their coach and their program is more proven than SLU's. I also think you're sleeping on the network effect value of bringing in a rivalry that's already baked into the cake. No matter how you slice it, #11 and #12 aren't gonna measurably move the needle in Chicago.

SLU does have a history with depaul marquette and xavier, so they arent exactly a total outsider

gosports1 - That's correct. There's quite a bit of history between DePaul, Marquette, Xavier and SLU. Dayton has a lot of history with them, as well. SLU also has the Jesuit connection with Creighton and compete for a lot of the same students, so I think that could build up quickly.

Unless I missed it, we're forgetting a big reason why there are no public schools that were offered initially: transparency - or, the lack thereof - of financial matters.

When you're made up of 10 schools that are all private, you don't have to declare anything. Not what you pay for each sport, what you pay for athletics in general, what you coaches make, nothing. When one single public institution joins, the entire conference has to declare these things.

The ability to not have to have your books scrutinized by fanbases, the media, other schools/conferences, is something that athletic departments consider to be a big boon, at least from what I've heard.

It might not preclude a public institution or two from joining but it is one more thing that VCU et al. will have to overcome during the admissions process.

(04-27-2013 10:50 PM)handdownmandown Wrote:  When you're made up of 10 schools that are all private, you don't have to declare anything. Not what you pay for each sport, what you pay for athletics in general, what you coaches make, nothing. When one single public institution joins, the entire conference has to declare these things.

The private schools can declare whatever they want. The same thing happened in the Old Big East.

I believe all schools technically have to report some figures in, to what degree of accuracy I cant say especially for the private schools but here is a neat place from the department of education.

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/GetOneInstitutionData.aspx

Here is an example:

University of Louisville: Public School
Mens Basketball:
Total expense by team: $15,489,954
Total Revenues by Team:$42,434,684

Georgetown University: Private School
Mens Basketball:
Total Expenses by Team: $10,015,207
Total Revenues by Team: $10,015,207

DePaul University: Private School
Mens Basketball:
Total Expenses by Team: $6,657,771
Total Revenues by Team: $6,657,771


The accountants/AD's of Georgetown and DePaul need to run our country-they'd balance our budget in a few years.

Handdownmandown's post on transparency couldn't be further from the truth. All nonprofits, including institutions of higher education, by law, must file an IRS Form 990 which details a variety of revenues and expenses including revenues generated by athletics and the salaries of the highest compensated employees. These are publicly available and some organizationas actually post the 990s on their websites. A quick perusal of recent 990s shows that for 2010 Rick Majerus made $736,598 at St. Louis, McDermott $1,347,799 at Creighton, Jay Wright $2,255,332 at Villanova. If one has the inclination they can look up all the schools in the Big East.

I rarely post but I grew tired of this issue. If folks want to post comments about transparency of public vs. private institutions, please get the facts right. There may be reasons why the Big East wants to remain private, I don't really know, but the transparency issue just serves as a red herring in the debate... it didn't seem to be a problem with UConn in the original "private" Big East?

Isn't this a no-brainer? St Louis and Dayton are perfect matches. Both Catholic, good programs, and centrally located. Let Wichita find a new home in the Mountain West if they need a better conference. And VCU? If they're not happy in the A-10, maybe the AAC will take them.

Look, you're going to dip into the A-10 again anyway, why not do them a favor and make them a true east coast conference again?

(04-26-2013 02:18 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(04-26-2013 02:02 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The problem isn't the distance between Omaha and either Wichita or St Louis, it's the distance between Wichita to Chicago/Milwaukee, etc.

Granted but only Depaul and Butler are realistically within driving distance. At most you're looking at a marginally longer charter for all but two schools, with Creighton getting a driveable opponent and familiar rival. It's also easier to squeeze together Creighton+WSU on the road than Creighton+SLU.

This doesn't account for the other Olympics that don't charter, but on balance it seems like a wash at worst.

Actually it does because if you have to fly to Omaha anyway then driving to Wichita State and flying back from Omaha is the cheapest approach. The biggest thing hurting Wichita State besides Public is no soccer. Personally I hope they add four teams and go to 14.

(04-26-2013 04:01 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(04-26-2013 03:46 PM)JackMort Wrote:  How is DePaul driving distance but not Marquette? It's probably only an extra 20 minutes drive (bypass Chicago with I43).

I get 4.5 hours for the former and 5.5 hours for the latter using Google Maps. I capped driving time at around the 4 hour mark. VCU took a bus to Charlotte and (maybe) Temple last year, but other than that we chartered everywhere. Can't imagine the BE teams not doing the same, especially in Wisconsin and Chicago around winter time.

Butler buses up to 6 hours for sure and regularly bused to Green Bay which was 8 hours. Move your cap to 6.5 and you are probably safe.

(04-26-2013 04:35 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  FS1 carriage won't have much to do with its regional sports net carriage, though. They're two separate entities. In theory, Fox might use its Fox Sports Midwest leverage to get more carriage fees for FS1 in that area, but it's uncertain whether that will happen.

Anyway, Wichita State (as much as I enjoy watching them) just doesn't fit at all. Look at the actions of the Big East presidents. If there's a debate about VCU (which is close to the East Coast footprint of the conference), there's just no way that Wichita State has a chance at all. SLU brings in a ton of students from and sends a ton of alums to Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and the Ohio markets, whereas there's almost zero cross-pollination between Wichita State and every other market in the league. SLU also isn't a small school despite being private. It has around 8500 undergrads and 2500 grad students (with kids coming from around the country) compared to 11,000 undergrads and 3000 grad students at Wichita State (with kids coming almost completely from the state of Kansas), so they actually aren't even that far apart in size. At the end of the day, there are no network effects and it's a small market public school. Wichita State has a great basketball program, but that's simply only one factor. The Big East is clearly about being in big markets and probably all private schools, so Wichita State is the antithesis of that. George Mason couldn't even make a move out of the CAA until several A-10 defections despite having a Final Four run, top notch academics and a great location in Northern Virginia. Wichita State is in a way worse position compared to George Mason by conference realignment metrics.

So I understand your point about institutional fit but you ignore some salient points.

1) Wichita State makes a much better travel partner to Creighton than St Louis. For schools trying to save cash this matters.

2) Wichita State has the better athletics department overall when compared to St Louis with top 50 teams in multiple sports.

3) St Louis is a bigger market but it isn't clear to me it is a bigger basketball market. Kansas is a basketball first State and could be a good TV add for the basketball first big east.

So if you add VCU I think you have to think hard about Wichita State.

(04-28-2013 11:07 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(04-26-2013 04:35 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  FS1 carriage won't have much to do with its regional sports net carriage, though. They're two separate entities. In theory, Fox might use its Fox Sports Midwest leverage to get more carriage fees for FS1 in that area, but it's uncertain whether that will happen.

Anyway, Wichita State (as much as I enjoy watching them) just doesn't fit at all. Look at the actions of the Big East presidents. If there's a debate about VCU (which is close to the East Coast footprint of the conference), there's just no way that Wichita State has a chance at all. SLU brings in a ton of students from and sends a ton of alums to Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and the Ohio markets, whereas there's almost zero cross-pollination between Wichita State and every other market in the league. SLU also isn't a small school despite being private. It has around 8500 undergrads and 2500 grad students (with kids coming from around the country) compared to 11,000 undergrads and 3000 grad students at Wichita State (with kids coming almost completely from the state of Kansas), so they actually aren't even that far apart in size. At the end of the day, there are no network effects and it's a small market public school. Wichita State has a great basketball program, but that's simply only one factor. The Big East is clearly about being in big markets and probably all private schools, so Wichita State is the antithesis of that. George Mason couldn't even make a move out of the CAA until several A-10 defections despite having a Final Four run, top notch academics and a great location in Northern Virginia. Wichita State is in a way worse position compared to George Mason by conference realignment metrics.

So I understand your point about institutional fit but you ignore some salient points.

1) Wichita State makes a much better travel partner to Creighton than St Louis. For schools trying to save cash this matters.

2) Wichita State has the better athletics department overall when compared to St Louis with top 50 teams in multiple sports.

3) St Louis is a bigger market but it isn't clear to me it is a bigger basketball market. Kansas is a basketball first State and could be a good TV add for the basketball first big east.

So if you add VCU I think you have to think hard about Wichita State.

I think VCU is a long shot which makes WSU probably not even on the radar to be honest. The president's seem to prefer like-minded institutions (non-public) which would put SLU right at the top and then followed by Dayton and Richmond. Institutional fit seems like a MAJOR factor. After that, the other problem with Wichita is that it's even a smaller city than Omaha and travel would even be a bigger problem than Omaha already is. Omaha has direct flights to 7 of the Big East cities, I'm not sure Wichita does. Most teams would have to fly to Omaha/Kansas City and then bus/connect to Wichita (Olympic sports).

(04-28-2013 11:39 AM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(04-28-2013 11:07 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(04-26-2013 04:35 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  FS1 carriage won't have much to do with its regional sports net carriage, though. They're two separate entities. In theory, Fox might use its Fox Sports Midwest leverage to get more carriage fees for FS1 in that area, but it's uncertain whether that will happen.

Anyway, Wichita State (as much as I enjoy watching them) just doesn't fit at all. Look at the actions of the Big East presidents. If there's a debate about VCU (which is close to the East Coast footprint of the conference), there's just no way that Wichita State has a chance at all. SLU brings in a ton of students from and sends a ton of alums to Chicago, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and the Ohio markets, whereas there's almost zero cross-pollination between Wichita State and every other market in the league. SLU also isn't a small school despite being private. It has around 8500 undergrads and 2500 grad students (with kids coming from around the country) compared to 11,000 undergrads and 3000 grad students at Wichita State (with kids coming almost completely from the state of Kansas), so they actually aren't even that far apart in size. At the end of the day, there are no network effects and it's a small market public school. Wichita State has a great basketball program, but that's simply only one factor. The Big East is clearly about being in big markets and probably all private schools, so Wichita State is the antithesis of that. George Mason couldn't even make a move out of the CAA until several A-10 defections despite having a Final Four run, top notch academics and a great location in Northern Virginia. Wichita State is in a way worse position compared to George Mason by conference realignment metrics.

So I understand your point about institutional fit but you ignore some salient points.

1) Wichita State makes a much better travel partner to Creighton than St Louis. For schools trying to save cash this matters.

2) Wichita State has the better athletics department overall when compared to St Louis with top 50 teams in multiple sports.

3) St Louis is a bigger market but it isn't clear to me it is a bigger basketball market. Kansas is a basketball first State and could be a good TV add for the basketball first big east.

So if you add VCU I think you have to think hard about Wichita State.

I think VCU is a long shot which makes WSU probably not even on the radar to be honest. The president's seem to prefer like-minded institutions (non-public) which would put SLU right at the top and then followed by Dayton and Richmond. Institutional fit seems like a MAJOR factor. After that, the other problem with Wichita is that it's even a smaller city than Omaha and travel would even be a bigger problem than Omaha already is. Omaha has direct flights to 7 of the Big East cities, I'm not sure Wichita does. Most teams would have to fly to Omaha/Kansas City and then bus/connect to Wichita (Olympic sports).

So I understand the institutional fit point but it applies equally to VCU. Do one and you would consider the other. Your point on flying to Omaha and bussing makes my point that Wichita State makes the best travel partner with Creighton. Given the need to contain costs this isn't insignificant. Again, we have debated the institutional fit question to death. But if the combined power of Wichita State/VCU make you chose to ignore it, other positives do exist beyond just their final four runs.

If the goal is 14, IMO Wichita and vcu make sense as a pair to join slu and Dayton. If its to stay at 12 than slu is 11 and Richmond comes into play to challenge Dayton for the final spot. Richmond does help the most with Olympic sports that need additional members for auto bids (lax and field hockey for ex)

(04-28-2013 11:39 AM)Jet915 Wrote:  I think VCU is a long shot which makes WSU probably not even on the radar to be honest. The president's seem to prefer like-minded institutions (non-public) which would put SLU right at the top and then followed by Dayton and Richmond. Institutional fit seems like a MAJOR factor. After that, the other problem with Wichita is that it's even a smaller city than Omaha and travel would even be a bigger problem than Omaha already is. Omaha has direct flights to 7 of the Big East cities, I'm not sure Wichita does. Most teams would have to fly to Omaha/Kansas City and then bus/connect to Wichita (Olympic sports).

I think VCU and Wichita State are at exactly the same level. If you add one, I think you add the other as well. It may not make much sense to add them if institutional fit is the main priority, but it makes even less sense to add just one of them.

And while Wichita State is a slightly smaller city than Omaha (20,000ish?), it is a bigger media market for whatever reason. On the airport side, I know we have built a new airport terminal recently. Commercially we only currently have non-stop flights to something like 4-5 Big East schools, though of course our team flies charter in most cases. It's likely that the airport would work to add flights from Big East cities if they saw a large amount of demand.

(04-28-2013 10:25 AM)MSki Wrote:  Isn't this a no-brainer? St Louis and Dayton are perfect matches. Both Catholic, good programs, and centrally located. Let Wichita find a new home in the Mountain West if they need a better conference. And VCU? If they're not happy in the A-10, maybe the AAC will take them.

Look, you're going to dip into the A-10 again anyway, why not do them a favor and make them a true east coast conference again?

I don't see Dayton and St. Louis as a perfect match.

Expansion to 12 means2 divisions. UD and SLU are both Midwest, which is a bad match. The conference will need one East Coast team for and east division. Neither of those two fits that spot.

It's VCU or Siena. Seems like an easy choice to me.

(04-28-2013 08:38 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(04-28-2013 10:25 AM)MSki Wrote:  Isn't this a no-brainer? St Louis and Dayton are perfect matches. Both Catholic, good programs, and centrally located. Let Wichita find a new home in the Mountain West if they need a better conference. And VCU? If they're not happy in the A-10, maybe the AAC will take them.

Look, you're going to dip into the A-10 again anyway, why not do them a favor and make them a true east coast conference again?

I don't see Dayton and St. Louis as a perfect match.

Expansion to 12 means2 divisions. UD and SLU are both Midwest, which is a bad match. The conference will need one East Coast team for and east division. Neither of those two fits that spot.

It's VCU or Siena. Seems like an easy choice to me.

This isn't FB, there is no need to go to divisions with 12 teams.

Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown

Xavier
Butler
DePaul
Marquette
Creighton

Looking at it like this, it almost seems Drake and Duquesne make the most sense. I know that won't happen so I'm going with St. Louis and Dayton.

*I just looked up the schools' endowments and holy Richmond: $1.87 BILLION. That would be the largest in the Big East.