Pirating a thread from the Big East board, here's a link to a list ranking schools by their total number of appearances on the AP poll (1949-2013). It's one measure of the historic value of a program.

http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbaske..._total.cfm

Here's how the C7 and the most prominent applicants rank:

11. Georgetown
16. Marquette
25. St. John's
27. Villanova
49. DePaul
50. Gonzaga
55. Providence
61. Xavier
67. St. Louis
68. Seton Hall
70. Dayton
77. Butler
93. Creighton
153. Richmond
155. VCU

I think that that going back to 1949 makes this sort of thing lose relevance. For instance, VCU is penalized for not having a basketball program until about 40 years ago, while SLU is rewarded for having a program that was already decades old at that point.

Besides which, this ignores conference affiliation, the #1 thing affecting rankings. A team in the CAA would struggle to get ranked with a nearly perfect record now, and it would have been worse before TV and Internet allowed more people to see smaller conference teams.

This would have more relevance is it only took the modern era into account (roughly the 80s to now).

I wondered how long it would take you to get another shot at SLU.

(02-20-2013 02:55 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  I think that that going back to 1949 makes this sort of thing lose relevance. For instance, VCU is penalized for not having a basketball program until about 40 years ago, while SLU is rewarded for having a program that was already decades old at that point.

Besides which, this ignores conference affiliation, the #1 thing affecting rankings. A team in the CAA would struggle to get ranked with a nearly perfect record now, and it would have been worse before TV and Internet allowed more people to see smaller conference teams.

This would have more relevance is it only took the modern era into account (roughly the 80s to now).

Take it for what it's worth.

No one is being penalized; it's just a list. I think that it's value is that it gives a sense of name recognition, which is of some value to the TV networks. Some schools will still draw eyeballs from casual fans because they are known. Beyond that , it doesn't have a whole lot of value.

BTW, if we only went from the '80's on, UCLA wouldn't have much value at all because their glory years ended in 1980. Since then, only 4 Final Four appearances.

(02-20-2013 02:55 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  I think that that going back to 1949 makes this sort of thing lose relevance. For instance, VCU is penalized for not having a basketball program until about 40 years ago, while SLU is rewarded for having a program that was already decades old at that point.

Besides which, this ignores conference affiliation, the #1 thing affecting rankings. A team in the CAA would struggle to get ranked with a nearly perfect record now, and it would have been worse before TV and Internet allowed more people to see smaller conference teams.

This would have more relevance is it only took the modern era into account (roughly the 80s to now).

You don't get to decide what is the "modern era" or what counts as "relevance". How can you say the 60s and 70s don't matter? Cause CBS doesn't show the highlights from them (due to not owning the rights)?

There's a reason why the programs that got built up in the 50s and 60s and 70s still matter heavily today, none more than the Blue Bloods. You literally removed Adolph Rupp, Phog Allen, Dean Smith, John Wooden, A lot of Bob Knight, Al McGuire from adding relevance. I get your point about 1949, but the 80s? Jeez.

The Modern Era is usually about 1980 on whenever it's brought up by anyone. CBB didn't pick it to fit his agenda.

(02-20-2013 03:18 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  The Modern Era is usually about 1980 on whenever it's brought up by anyone. CBB didn't pick it to fit his agenda.

I think there's some kind of fancy booklearnin' term for this!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

It's like, totally arbitrary and just your opinion, man, that the 1980s are more relevant to today (and 10 years from now) than the 1960s.

(02-20-2013 03:18 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  The Modern Era is usually about 1980 on whenever it's brought up by anyone. CBB didn't pick it to fit his agenda.

Yeah, its the Larry Bird-Magic thing. Highest rated college basketball game ever in 1979. Still, its made-up and reinforced because CBS wont show the pre-1982 tournaments b/c NBC did the broadcasts.

I just think its a bit ridiculous to say measuring from 1949 is not fair and then jump all the way to 1980, ignoring a lot of college basketball history. College basketball was still very big in the 1970 and 60s.

Well, I think we want this list to give a sense of history. But at the same time, if it goes past history into archaeology, it loses some relevance. If you couldn't leverage that glittering resume from the 1950s and 60s into something in the last 40 years, it sort of becomes like Rice's Cotton Bowl trophies.

1980 or so is a popular dividing point--the Magic-Bird era in the NBA, NCAAs go to 64 teams, Big East conference starts, ESPN exists. So let's go another 10 years back to 1970--that brings Marquette's national championship in, a lot of Bob Knight, some Lew Alcindor.

10. Georgetown
14. Marquette
34. St John's
35. Villanova
43. Gonzaga
45. Depaul
49. Xavier
59t. Providence
67. Butler
70. Seton Hall
76. Creighton
(88. Wichita State)
109t. Dayton
129t. VCU
134t. SLU
149t. Richmond

Sorry if I left you out.

(02-20-2013 03:22 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:18 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  The Modern Era is usually about 1980 on whenever it's brought up by anyone. CBB didn't pick it to fit his agenda.

I think there's some kind of fancy booklearnin' term for this!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

It's like, totally arbitrary and just your opinion, man, that the 1980s are more relevant to today (and 10 years from now) than the 1960s.

Not my opinion because I don't give a damn either way. Just stating that 1980 is the commonly used line for such discussion. In all the years of discussing basketball, this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about that date.

And using that date, my school doesn't get included in the Final Four talk. Still get an Elite Eight out of it though.

(02-20-2013 03:58 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:22 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:18 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  The Modern Era is usually about 1980 on whenever it's brought up by anyone. CBB didn't pick it to fit his agenda.

I think there's some kind of fancy booklearnin' term for this!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

It's like, totally arbitrary and just your opinion, man, that the 1980s are more relevant to today (and 10 years from now) than the 1960s.

Not my opinion because I don't give a damn either way. Just stating that 1980 is the commonly used line for such discussion. In all the years of discussing basketball, this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about that date.

And using that date, my school doesn't get included in the Final Four talk. Still get an Elite Eight out of it though.

Sarcasm wasn't directed at you.

Modern era 1979-2013
7 Georgetown 379
33 Villanova 174
35t St John's 166
37t Marquette 165
46t DePaul 120
46t Xavier 120
59 Butler 76
62 Seton Hall 68
72t Creighton 43
99t Dayton 16
99t Providence 16
114t VCU 12
117t Saint Louis 10
129t Richmond 4

Looked more at the 1979-2013 list... of the top 28 teams(teams with 200 appearances or more(or on more than 1/3 of the polls)).
Big Ten 8
ACC 6
SEC 4
Big 12 3
NBE 3
Pac 12 2
C7 1
MWC 1

I think that is the concern that I have.

this list is one that is better closer in. last 10 years only- now top 30, but still in 1/3 of the polls
ACC 7
Big Ten 6
SEC 4
C7 4
Big 12 3
Pac 12 3
NBE 2
WCC 1

(02-20-2013 04:00 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:58 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:22 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:18 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  The Modern Era is usually about 1980 on whenever it's brought up by anyone. CBB didn't pick it to fit his agenda.

I think there's some kind of fancy booklearnin' term for this!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

It's like, totally arbitrary and just your opinion, man, that the 1980s are more relevant to today (and 10 years from now) than the 1960s.

Not my opinion because I don't give a damn either way. Just stating that 1980 is the commonly used line for such discussion. In all the years of discussing basketball, this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about that date.

And using that date, my school doesn't get included in the Final Four talk. Still get an Elite Eight out of it though.

Sarcasm wasn't directed at you.

Your emoticons are soooo cute.

(02-20-2013 04:31 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Looked more at the 1979-2013 list... of the top 28 teams(teams with 200 appearances or more(or on more than 1/3 of the polls)).
Big Ten 8
ACC 6
SEC 4
Big 12 3
NBE 3
Pac 12 2
C7 1
MWC 1

I think that is the concern that I have.

this list is one that is better closer in. last 10 years only- now top 30, but still in 1/3 of the polls
ACC 7
Big Ten 6
SEC 4
C7 4
Big 12 3
Pac 12 3
NBE 2
WCC 1

Well its going to be skewed a little bit if you take out Marquette's dominant decade. We rank only behind UCLA, who won pretty much everything, in the 70s before dropping in the mid to late 80s until we finally joined a conference.

(02-20-2013 04:36 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 04:00 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:58 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:22 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 03:18 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  The Modern Era is usually about 1980 on whenever it's brought up by anyone. CBB didn't pick it to fit his agenda.

I think there's some kind of fancy booklearnin' term for this!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation

It's like, totally arbitrary and just your opinion, man, that the 1980s are more relevant to today (and 10 years from now) than the 1960s.

Not my opinion because I don't give a damn either way. Just stating that 1980 is the commonly used line for such discussion. In all the years of discussing basketball, this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about that date.

And using that date, my school doesn't get included in the Final Four talk. Still get an Elite Eight out of it though.

Sarcasm wasn't directed at you.

Your emoticons are soooo cute.

Basically, the reasons for a 1980 start date are pretty simple. For one, all schools involved in this process had been playing for at least ten years by that point (VCU started in 1968, at the same time as the merger between the Richmond Professional Institute and the Medical College of Virginia).

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the game of 1980s resembles that of today more than earlier decades. Here are a few rules changes between the 1950s and now:

1948-1949 : Coaches are allowed to speak to players during a timeout.
1951-1952 : Games are to be played in four 10 minute quarters. Previously it was two 20 minute halfs.
1952-1953 : Teams can no longer waive free throws and take the ball at mid court.
1955-1956 : The two shot penalty in existence for the last 3 minutes of each half is eliminated; the one-and-one free throw exists for the whole game.
1957-1958 : Offensive goaltending is now banned.
1957-1958 : One free throw for each common foul for the first six personal fouls in a half, and the one-and-one is used thereafter.
1967-1968 : The dunk is made illegal during the game and during warmup
1972-1973 : Freshman are now eligible to play varsity basketball
1981-1982 : The jump ball is eliminated except for the start of the first and second half, and overtime if necessary. An alternating arrow will indicate possession of the ball in jump-ball situations in a game.
1985-1986 : The 45 second shot clock is introduced
1986-1987 : A three point shot was introduced at 19'9"

So, let's review. The game was simply not the same back in the day. You had teams composed of sophomores and older (no one and done super-stars then!), that were not allowed to dunk but were allowed to goal-tend, played in quarters instead of halves, shot free-throws after every foul, jumped after every held ball, and did not have either a 3PT shot or a 45 second shot clock.

Obviously factors like fan and institutional support carry throughout the decades, but I think that it is hard to make apples to apples comparisons between the decades. That is why a cut-off in the 80s or 70s makes a lot more sense than a 1949 cut-off. Some would argue that the modern era truly started with the 3PT shot, but I think you have to look a little further back (usually the Bird-Magic game is used).

1985 is commonly used, as well, because it corresponds with the start of the 64+ team bracket. (ie a Sweet 16 doesn't mean the same thing in 84 and 85)

(02-20-2013 04:46 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Basically, the reasons for a 1980 start date are pretty simple. For one, all schools involved in this process had been playing for at least ten years by that point (VCU started in 1968, at the same time as the merger between the Richmond Professional Institute and the Medical College of Virginia).

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the game of 1980s resembles that of today more than earlier decades. Here are a few rules changes between the 1950s and now:

1948-1949 : Coaches are allowed to speak to players during a timeout.
1951-1952 : Games are to be played in four 10 minute quarters. Previously it was two 20 minute halfs.
1952-1953 : Teams can no longer waive free throws and take the ball at mid court.
1955-1956 : The two shot penalty in existence for the last 3 minutes of each half is eliminated; the one-and-one free throw exists for the whole game.
1957-1958 : Offensive goaltending is now banned.
1957-1958 : One free throw for each common foul for the first six personal fouls in a half, and the one-and-one is used thereafter.
1967-1968 : The dunk is made illegal during the game and during warmup
1972-1973 : Freshman are now eligible to play varsity basketball
1981-1982 : The jump ball is eliminated except for the start of the first and second half, and overtime if necessary. An alternating arrow will indicate possession of the ball in jump-ball situations in a game.
1985-1986 : The 45 second shot clock is introduced
1986-1987 : A three point shot was introduced at 19'9"

So, let's review. The game was simply not the same back in the day. You had teams composed of sophomores and older (no one and done super-stars then!), that were not allowed to dunk but were allowed to goal-tend, played in quarters instead of halves, shot free-throws after every foul, jumped after every held ball, and did not have either a 3PT shot or a 45 second shot clock.

Obviously factors like fan and institutional support carry throughout the decades, but I think that it is hard to make apples to apples comparisons between the decades. That is why a cut-off in the 80s or 70s makes a lot more sense than a 1949 cut-off. Some would argue that the modern era truly started with the 3PT shot, but I think you have to look a little further back (usually the Bird-Magic game is used).

Thanks for the research, I agree with this. Just getting annoyed how everyone (mainly ESPN & CBS) always just glosses over the 70s when talking about relevant history, which just so happens to perfectly ignore when Marquette was a huge name.

In fact, though - the biggest rule changes you cite are the ones that come after 1985, and you didn't even include the expansion of the tourney to 64. (Which would hurt Marquette even more as it perfect coincides with the start of the terrible Dukiet years)

When did the halves come back by the way? I'm pretty sure it was used in the 70s. The coaches finally being allowed to speak to players is pretty funny to even think about.

yeah, 85 would make sense if you are looking at sweet 16's.