(02-20-2013 04:52 PM)Title Wrote:  1985 is commonly used, as well, because it corresponds with the start of the 64+ team bracket. (ie a Sweet 16 doesn't mean the same thing in 84 and 85)

This is true except we were speaking about AP poll appearances.

(02-20-2013 04:57 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 04:46 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Basically, the reasons for a 1980 start date are pretty simple. For one, all schools involved in this process had been playing for at least ten years by that point (VCU started in 1968, at the same time as the merger between the Richmond Professional Institute and the Medical College of Virginia).

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the game of 1980s resembles that of today more than earlier decades. Here are a few rules changes between the 1950s and now:

1948-1949 : Coaches are allowed to speak to players during a timeout.
1951-1952 : Games are to be played in four 10 minute quarters. Previously it was two 20 minute halfs.
1952-1953 : Teams can no longer waive free throws and take the ball at mid court.
1955-1956 : The two shot penalty in existence for the last 3 minutes of each half is eliminated; the one-and-one free throw exists for the whole game.
1957-1958 : Offensive goaltending is now banned.
1957-1958 : One free throw for each common foul for the first six personal fouls in a half, and the one-and-one is used thereafter.
1967-1968 : The dunk is made illegal during the game and during warmup
1972-1973 : Freshman are now eligible to play varsity basketball
1981-1982 : The jump ball is eliminated except for the start of the first and second half, and overtime if necessary. An alternating arrow will indicate possession of the ball in jump-ball situations in a game.
1985-1986 : The 45 second shot clock is introduced
1986-1987 : A three point shot was introduced at 19'9"

So, let's review. The game was simply not the same back in the day. You had teams composed of sophomores and older (no one and done super-stars then!), that were not allowed to dunk but were allowed to goal-tend, played in quarters instead of halves, shot free-throws after every foul, jumped after every held ball, and did not have either a 3PT shot or a 45 second shot clock.

Obviously factors like fan and institutional support carry throughout the decades, but I think that it is hard to make apples to apples comparisons between the decades. That is why a cut-off in the 80s or 70s makes a lot more sense than a 1949 cut-off. Some would argue that the modern era truly started with the 3PT shot, but I think you have to look a little further back (usually the Bird-Magic game is used).

Thanks for the research, I agree with this. Just getting annoyed how everyone (mainly ESPN & CBS) always just glosses over the 70s when talking about relevant history, which just so happens to coincide with ignoring when Marquette was a huge name.

In fact, though - the biggest rule changes you cite are the ones that come after 1985, and you didn't even include the expansion of the tourney to 64. (Which would hurt Marquette even more as it perfect coincides with the start of the terrible Dukiet years)

When did the halves come back by the way? I'm pretty sure it was used in the 70s. The coaches finally being allowed to speak to players is pretty funny to even think about.

I think the 3 big ones are:
1972-73- Freshman eligible
1985-86 45 second shot clock
1986-87 3 point shot introduced

I'd also throw in 2 more pretty important dates-
1970-71 Spencer Haywood case that allowed college players to go pro early.
2005-06 NBA 1 year rule comes into place

(02-20-2013 05:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 04:57 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 04:46 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Basically, the reasons for a 1980 start date are pretty simple. For one, all schools involved in this process had been playing for at least ten years by that point (VCU started in 1968, at the same time as the merger between the Richmond Professional Institute and the Medical College of Virginia).

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the game of 1980s resembles that of today more than earlier decades. Here are a few rules changes between the 1950s and now:

1948-1949 : Coaches are allowed to speak to players during a timeout.
1951-1952 : Games are to be played in four 10 minute quarters. Previously it was two 20 minute halfs.
1952-1953 : Teams can no longer waive free throws and take the ball at mid court.
1955-1956 : The two shot penalty in existence for the last 3 minutes of each half is eliminated; the one-and-one free throw exists for the whole game.
1957-1958 : Offensive goaltending is now banned.
1957-1958 : One free throw for each common foul for the first six personal fouls in a half, and the one-and-one is used thereafter.
1967-1968 : The dunk is made illegal during the game and during warmup
1972-1973 : Freshman are now eligible to play varsity basketball
1981-1982 : The jump ball is eliminated except for the start of the first and second half, and overtime if necessary. An alternating arrow will indicate possession of the ball in jump-ball situations in a game.
1985-1986 : The 45 second shot clock is introduced
1986-1987 : A three point shot was introduced at 19'9"

So, let's review. The game was simply not the same back in the day. You had teams composed of sophomores and older (no one and done super-stars then!), that were not allowed to dunk but were allowed to goal-tend, played in quarters instead of halves, shot free-throws after every foul, jumped after every held ball, and did not have either a 3PT shot or a 45 second shot clock.

Obviously factors like fan and institutional support carry throughout the decades, but I think that it is hard to make apples to apples comparisons between the decades. That is why a cut-off in the 80s or 70s makes a lot more sense than a 1949 cut-off. Some would argue that the modern era truly started with the 3PT shot, but I think you have to look a little further back (usually the Bird-Magic game is used).

Thanks for the research, I agree with this. Just getting annoyed how everyone (mainly ESPN & CBS) always just glosses over the 70s when talking about relevant history, which just so happens to coincide with ignoring when Marquette was a huge name.

In fact, though - the biggest rule changes you cite are the ones that come after 1985, and you didn't even include the expansion of the tourney to 64. (Which would hurt Marquette even more as it perfect coincides with the start of the terrible Dukiet years)

When did the halves come back by the way? I'm pretty sure it was used in the 70s. The coaches finally being allowed to speak to players is pretty funny to even think about.

I think the 3 big ones are:
1972-73- Freshman eligible
1985-86 45 second shot clock
1986-87 3 point shot introduced

I'd also throw in 2 more pretty important dates-
1970-71 Spencer Haywood case that allowed college players to go pro early.
2005-06 NBA 1 year rule comes into place

1971 - College teams can't turn down NCAA invite.
1972 - Bumblee uniforms banned for "psychedelic effect.”
http://www.lostlettermen.com/wp-content/.../19711.jpg
1985- Untucked uniforms banned
http://media.jsonline.com/images/untuckednew.jpg

(02-20-2013 04:57 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Thanks for the research, I agree with this. Just getting annoyed how everyone (mainly ESPN & CBS) always just glosses over the 70s when talking about relevant history, which just so happens to perfectly ignore when Marquette was a huge name.

In fact, though - the biggest rule changes you cite are the ones that come after 1985, and you didn't even include the expansion of the tourney to 64. (Which would hurt Marquette even more as it perfect coincides with the start of the terrible Dukiet years)

When did the halves come back by the way? I'm pretty sure it was used in the 70s. The coaches finally being allowed to speak to players is pretty funny to even think about.

I think games were changed back to halves in the '54 season, so it didn't last particularly long. Mostly, I just wanted to use it to paint a picture.

I think you could make a case for the 70s being "close enough" to the modern game, with legal dunking, freshman allowed to play, and fouls treated similarly to how they are today. I'm not trying to attack Marquette, because I am more concerned about the potential candidates than the founding members of the conference.

When I'm judging the NCAA tournament, '85 seems like a good thing for Sweet 16s and appearances (not necessarily for things further that). It doesn't have much relevance on the AP poll though.

(02-20-2013 05:17 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 05:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 04:57 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 04:46 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Basically, the reasons for a 1980 start date are pretty simple. For one, all schools involved in this process had been playing for at least ten years by that point (VCU started in 1968, at the same time as the merger between the Richmond Professional Institute and the Medical College of Virginia).

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the game of 1980s resembles that of today more than earlier decades. Here are a few rules changes between the 1950s and now:

1948-1949 : Coaches are allowed to speak to players during a timeout.
1951-1952 : Games are to be played in four 10 minute quarters. Previously it was two 20 minute halfs.
1952-1953 : Teams can no longer waive free throws and take the ball at mid court.
1955-1956 : The two shot penalty in existence for the last 3 minutes of each half is eliminated; the one-and-one free throw exists for the whole game.
1957-1958 : Offensive goaltending is now banned.
1957-1958 : One free throw for each common foul for the first six personal fouls in a half, and the one-and-one is used thereafter.
1967-1968 : The dunk is made illegal during the game and during warmup
1972-1973 : Freshman are now eligible to play varsity basketball
1981-1982 : The jump ball is eliminated except for the start of the first and second half, and overtime if necessary. An alternating arrow will indicate possession of the ball in jump-ball situations in a game.
1985-1986 : The 45 second shot clock is introduced
1986-1987 : A three point shot was introduced at 19'9"

So, let's review. The game was simply not the same back in the day. You had teams composed of sophomores and older (no one and done super-stars then!), that were not allowed to dunk but were allowed to goal-tend, played in quarters instead of halves, shot free-throws after every foul, jumped after every held ball, and did not have either a 3PT shot or a 45 second shot clock.

Obviously factors like fan and institutional support carry throughout the decades, but I think that it is hard to make apples to apples comparisons between the decades. That is why a cut-off in the 80s or 70s makes a lot more sense than a 1949 cut-off. Some would argue that the modern era truly started with the 3PT shot, but I think you have to look a little further back (usually the Bird-Magic game is used).

Thanks for the research, I agree with this. Just getting annoyed how everyone (mainly ESPN & CBS) always just glosses over the 70s when talking about relevant history, which just so happens to coincide with ignoring when Marquette was a huge name.

In fact, though - the biggest rule changes you cite are the ones that come after 1985, and you didn't even include the expansion of the tourney to 64. (Which would hurt Marquette even more as it perfect coincides with the start of the terrible Dukiet years)

When did the halves come back by the way? I'm pretty sure it was used in the 70s. The coaches finally being allowed to speak to players is pretty funny to even think about.

I think the 3 big ones are:
1972-73- Freshman eligible
1985-86 45 second shot clock
1986-87 3 point shot introduced

I'd also throw in 2 more pretty important dates-
1970-71 Spencer Haywood case that allowed college players to go pro early.
2005-06 NBA 1 year rule comes into place

1971 - College teams can't turn down NCAA invite.
1972 - Bumblee uniforms banned for "psychedelic effect.”
http://www.lostlettermen.com/wp-content/.../19711.jpg
1985- Untucked uniforms banned
http://media.jsonline.com/images/untuckednew.jpg

when are they going to ban the neon uniform for the "eyestrain effect"?????

(02-20-2013 05:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 05:17 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 05:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 04:57 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-20-2013 04:46 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  Basically, the reasons for a 1980 start date are pretty simple. For one, all schools involved in this process had been playing for at least ten years by that point (VCU started in 1968, at the same time as the merger between the Richmond Professional Institute and the Medical College of Virginia).

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, the game of 1980s resembles that of today more than earlier decades. Here are a few rules changes between the 1950s and now:

1948-1949 : Coaches are allowed to speak to players during a timeout.
1951-1952 : Games are to be played in four 10 minute quarters. Previously it was two 20 minute halfs.
1952-1953 : Teams can no longer waive free throws and take the ball at mid court.
1955-1956 : The two shot penalty in existence for the last 3 minutes of each half is eliminated; the one-and-one free throw exists for the whole game.
1957-1958 : Offensive goaltending is now banned.
1957-1958 : One free throw for each common foul for the first six personal fouls in a half, and the one-and-one is used thereafter.
1967-1968 : The dunk is made illegal during the game and during warmup
1972-1973 : Freshman are now eligible to play varsity basketball
1981-1982 : The jump ball is eliminated except for the start of the first and second half, and overtime if necessary. An alternating arrow will indicate possession of the ball in jump-ball situations in a game.
1985-1986 : The 45 second shot clock is introduced
1986-1987 : A three point shot was introduced at 19'9"

So, let's review. The game was simply not the same back in the day. You had teams composed of sophomores and older (no one and done super-stars then!), that were not allowed to dunk but were allowed to goal-tend, played in quarters instead of halves, shot free-throws after every foul, jumped after every held ball, and did not have either a 3PT shot or a 45 second shot clock.

Obviously factors like fan and institutional support carry throughout the decades, but I think that it is hard to make apples to apples comparisons between the decades. That is why a cut-off in the 80s or 70s makes a lot more sense than a 1949 cut-off. Some would argue that the modern era truly started with the 3PT shot, but I think you have to look a little further back (usually the Bird-Magic game is used).

Thanks for the research, I agree with this. Just getting annoyed how everyone (mainly ESPN & CBS) always just glosses over the 70s when talking about relevant history, which just so happens to coincide with ignoring when Marquette was a huge name.

In fact, though - the biggest rule changes you cite are the ones that come after 1985, and you didn't even include the expansion of the tourney to 64. (Which would hurt Marquette even more as it perfect coincides with the start of the terrible Dukiet years)

When did the halves come back by the way? I'm pretty sure it was used in the 70s. The coaches finally being allowed to speak to players is pretty funny to even think about.

I think the 3 big ones are:
1972-73- Freshman eligible
1985-86 45 second shot clock
1986-87 3 point shot introduced

I'd also throw in 2 more pretty important dates-
1970-71 Spencer Haywood case that allowed college players to go pro early.
2005-06 NBA 1 year rule comes into place

1971 - College teams can't turn down NCAA invite.
1972 - Bumblee uniforms banned for "psychedelic effect.”
http://www.lostlettermen.com/wp-content/.../19711.jpg
1985- Untucked uniforms banned
http://media.jsonline.com/images/untuckednew.jpg

when are they going to ban the neon uniform for the "eyestrain effect"?????

If Marquette starts wearing it, they might.

Fyi:
Marquette was ranked 129 weeks from 1969 to 1979.
Providence was ranked 71 weeks from 1972 to 1978.
PC was also ranked 123 weeks in the 60s and 70s combined.

We just got croaked last night by someone who coached in the 1970s... it's not that long ago!

(02-21-2013 07:05 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Fyi:
Marquette was ranked 129 weeks from 1969 to 1979.
Providence was ranked 71 weeks from 1972 to 1978.
PC was also ranked 123 weeks in the 60s and 70s combined.

We just got croaked last night by someone who coached in the 1970s... it's not that long ago!

Jim Larranaga played at Providence in 1967-71. He has croaked the entire ACC this year with Miami, adding to what he did with George Mason 7 years ago.

I think using 1979 makes a lot of sense. It's the Big East era.

(02-21-2013 08:53 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 07:05 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Fyi:
Marquette was ranked 129 weeks from 1969 to 1979.
Providence was ranked 71 weeks from 1972 to 1978.
PC was also ranked 123 weeks in the 60s and 70s combined.

We just got croaked last night by someone who coached in the 1970s... it's not that long ago!

Jim Larranaga played at Providence in 1967-71. He has croaked the entire ACC this year with Miami, adding to what he did with George Mason 7 years ago.

Thanks for pointing that out!

We have Larranaga (PC '71) at the top of the ACC.
We have Billy Donovan (PC '87) at the top of the SEC.
We have the son of John Thompson Jr (PC '64) tied for the top of the Big East.
We also used to have the all-time winningest NBA coach in Lenny Wilkens (PC '60) til Don Nelson passed him a couple of years ago.

Also, your posts pointing out the good things, groundbreaking, cutting edge, about PC history and the old Big East teams and C-7+5 teams are appreciated. The Big East and C-7 has had some amazing accomplishments.

Doesn't matter what denomiantor you use, it will be biased in one way or another.

Do you look to a past and gauge a path forward? I would. Would relying solely on the past as your guiding light to the future be prudent? I think not. You might be out trying to include CCNY, San Francisco or Texas Western in the list(s). I'd be willing to bet that not a single kid being recruited today knows much about Bird/Magic circa 1979 except they wore really short shorts. That they are some sort of dinosaurs that shaped the earliest Cro-Magnon NCAA basketball days. Just like the tirvia question of who else was in that Final Four, considering Magic and Bird played in a semi-final game? I would think that in today's what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, even programs like Seton Hall and Providence and St. John's get lapped by newbies Butler, VCU, Xavier and Gonzaga. Even George Mason, who I saw wax Nova in person in Cleveland in 2011, might be a more prominent player and could be better off than some of us on this list. Looking at programs trending up should be a favorable factor come decision time.

(02-21-2013 12:25 PM)Taj79 Wrote:  Doesn't matter what denomiantor you use, it will be biased in one way or another.

Just like the tirvia question of who else was in that Final Four, considering Magic and Bird played in a semi-final game?

The Final Four was Indiana State, Michigan State, DePaul, and Penn

DePaul lost by 2 points because of some bumb name Larry Bird who happened to be College Player of the Year that year. DePaul ended up beating Penn for 3rd place.

(02-21-2013 12:25 PM)Taj79 Wrote:  Looking at programs trending up should be a favorable factor come decision time.

Problem is, that program could be "trending up", or they could be at a 20-year peak and poised to turn right back into what their history suggests.

(02-21-2013 12:39 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 12:25 PM)Taj79 Wrote:  Looking at programs trending up should be a favorable factor come decision time.

Problem is, that program could be "trending up", or they could be at a 20-year peak and poised to turn right back into what their history suggests.

I know you don't like Saint Louis, you've established that over and over. But to suggest that this is all SLU can do is absurd.

(02-21-2013 12:38 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 12:25 PM)Taj79 Wrote:  Doesn't matter what denomiantor you use, it will be biased in one way or another.

Just like the tirvia question of who else was in that Final Four, considering Magic and Bird played in a semi-final game?

The Final Four was Indiana State, Michigan State, DePaul, and Penn

DePaul lost by 2 points because of some bumb name Larry Bird who happened to be College Player of the Year that year. DePaul ended up beating Penn for 3rd place.

One little correction, Magic and Bird played in the final not the semifinal.

(02-21-2013 10:35 AM)billyjack Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 08:53 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(02-21-2013 07:05 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Fyi:
Marquette was ranked 129 weeks from 1969 to 1979.
Providence was ranked 71 weeks from 1972 to 1978.
PC was also ranked 123 weeks in the 60s and 70s combined.

We just got croaked last night by someone who coached in the 1970s... it's not that long ago!

Jim Larranaga played at Providence in 1967-71. He has croaked the entire ACC this year with Miami, adding to what he did with George Mason 7 years ago.

Thanks for pointing that out!

We have Larranaga (PC '71) at the top of the ACC.
We have Billy Donovan (PC '87) at the top of the SEC.
We have the son of John Thompson Jr (PC '64) tied for the top of the Big East.
We also used to have the all-time winningest NBA coach in Lenny Wilkens (PC '60) til Don Nelson passed him a couple of years ago.

Also, your posts pointing out the good things, groundbreaking, cutting edge, about PC history and the old Big East teams and C-7+5 teams are appreciated. The Big East and C-7 has had some amazing accomplishments.

I paid 8 years of tuition for 2 daughters at PC, so I've done a lot of cheering for Friar teams over the years. My firs daughter was a freshman when Billy Donovan took them to the Final Four. My other daughter was a junior when the Austin Croshere/Shamgod team went to the Elite 8

BTW, MY 3rd daughter, a BC alum, married a guy from Providence, so they get a lot of attention at our house.

At this point in my life, I consider myself a fan of good basketball more than anything else regardless of where it's played even though I'm a season ticket holder at UConn games. Most of all, I'm a fan of Eastern basketball in general with all of the great traditions we have here. The C7 have been an enormous part of that and as a guy who group attending Catholic schools all my life, I have a great affinity for all of them. Te first college gdame I ever attended was a Holy Cross-St. John's game in the Garden. We've been the underdogs for a long time until UConn established a high level of dominance in recent years, but I still think like an underdog.

I'm pulling big time for the C7, hoping that it can re-create the enthusism the accompanied the original Big East. I wish that UConn could be part of it, but that's not happening, so I'll have to settle for split loyalties. That my be hard for people from other parts of the country to understand. They don't seem to think that a group of small private colleges can be successful. But there's a different mentality here than in places that are dominated by State U with a fanatical devotion to that school as most of the rest of the country is. For me when one of us wins in the East, we all win. Same for the Catholic schools, one for all. I cheered just as hard when Al McGuire took Marquette to the NC and when Rollie Massimino took Villanova to one as I did when Jim Calhoun took UConn to any of its championships.

Looked this up today and thought it was actually relevant to this thread, given this concept of the "modern era" of college basketball.

Butler is 455-185 over the last 20 seasons. If BU finishes with 5 more wins, in 12/13, the 20-year average is exactly 23 wins per year.

(02-21-2013 12:52 PM)LouPower Wrote:  I know you don't like Saint Louis, you've established that over and over. But to suggest that this is all SLU can do is absurd.

You could argue that he wasn't attacking just Saint Louis with that. You have to ask the same question about most of the schools not named Butler or Xavier. Is VCU past their peak after the Final Four? Is Creighton going to decline without Doug McDermott? &c.

Ideally, you look a variety of factors and weigh them properly. Things the C7 have to consider are:

1. Funding and Institutional Support
2. Coaching (especially the age of the coach)
3. Fan support (where they rank in the local hierarchy)
4. Recent Success
5. Historical tournament success
6. Historical "respect" (polls like this in the regular season are good for measuring program respect, but that doesn't mean they are great for measuring program quality or success)

The ideal candidate for the C7 has institutional support, a proven young coach with commitment to the program, the ability to fill their arena even during off years, Sweet 16s or farther within the last 5 to 10 years, a large amount of past success in different decades, and respect from the media and other coaches. How does Saint Louis fare on those metrics, compared to other candidates? That isn't an unfair question, because it is essential to ask that question about every candidate.

The thing that scares me the most is an assistant taking over. Seen it happen way too much that an assistant like this takes over on an interim basis, rides an emotional period and gets the job on a full time basis. However, after that, they never can replicate it.

(02-21-2013 02:44 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The thing that scares me the most is an assistant taking over. Seen it happen way too much that an assistant like this takes over on an interim basis, rides an emotional period and gets the job on a full time basis. However, after that, they never can replicate it.

That is why I am afraid of Saint Louis. If they sustain the success they've had this season (and have some tournament success), then they become the type of no-brainer addition that Xavier and Butler are (because of their market and institutional fit).

But you can't really say anything for certain about what they will be in five years, positively or negatively. However, you cannot trust that their coach will be THE coach of the future until he is a few years removed from Majerus.