I don't see Gonzaga being any part of this...the geography just cant work when you factor mid week flying through that many time zones.

The goal of the C7 is to be the end all be all best "all basketball" conference in the country. You dont have to get Gonzaga to do that, you have to weaken the competition (and I don't consider the Big West the competition). Adding Creighton weakens the MVC, adding Butler and Xavier weakens the A-10.

I'm betting the C7 goes with those three and signs a contract. Then after that contract is signed, they move forward a few years, survey the landscape to see who is relevant (remember Charlotte is also leaving the A-10, Temple left, ODU left the CAA) and then pounce on two more and sign a new contract. Conference re-alignment is a slow methodical process (unless you get massively raided) with the goal to increase TV revenues. Commissioners always have to start low and work their way up. That 10 team alignment will make them relevant and allow them room to grow (programs & revenues) in the future.

(02-08-2013 11:12 AM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote:  I don't see Gonzaga being any part of this...the geography just cant work when you factor mid week flying through that many time zones.

The goal of the C7 is to be the end all be all best "all basketball" conference in the country. You dont have to get Gonzaga to do that, you have to weaken the competition (and I don't consider the Big West the competition). Adding Creighton weakens the MVC, adding Butler and Xavier weakens the A-10.

I'm betting the C7 goes with those three and signs a contract. Then after that contract is signed, they move forward a few years, survey the landscape to see who is relevant (remember Charlotte is also leaving the A-10, Temple left, ODU left the CAA) and then pounce on two more and sign a new contract. Conference re-alignment is a slow methodical process (unless you get massively raided) with the goal to increase TV revenues. Commissioners always have to start low and work their way up. That 10 team alignment will make them relevant and allow them room to grow (programs & revenues) in the future.

The problem is you generally wouldn't get full value for the 2 new adds as if you were truly signing a new contract.

The problem going with 10 is you leave the A10 extremely viable. Tourney teams in SLU, VCU, and La Salle at least.

(02-08-2013 10:59 AM)bluesox Wrote:  If your gonna bring in gonzaga, why not bring in BYU? Unless your going to 16, i' don't know why your bring in either. Also, don't know why you can't bring in a couple public school's, i would put VCU way over Richmond + like UMass.

14 members

E: Umass, Prov, St Johns, Seton Hall, Nova, Gtown, VCU
W: Depaul, Marquette, St Louis, Creighton, Butler, Xaiver, Dayton

In the era of super conference, i could see going to 16 with BYU in the west, than play a 14-4 schedule to ease travel. Of course, if there is any chance to get ND you do what they want. That would be a very strong conference with ND and byu, put nd in the east.

UMass has FBS football, exactly what they are trying to get away from. I can see why they would go all private, all basketball focused, and all somewhat major urban areas. UMass fits not one of those categories. It seems obvious from Katz's post that Marquette wants Creighton, but the 5 east coast schools are probably feeling that is too far a distance. Considering the other two schools, Butler and Xavier, are already in the midwest, I could see GU, VU, SJU, SHU and PC liking an east coast school, i.e. Richmond.

Quote:The goal of the C7 is to be the end all be all best "all basketball" conference in the country. You dont have to get Gonzaga to do that, you have to weaken the competition (and I don't consider the Big West the competition). Adding Creighton weakens the MVC, adding Butler and Xavier weakens the A-10.

I don't think we really see the A-10 and MVC as our competition--if they're close to our level, we've failed as an "elite basketball conference".

We see the Big Ten and ACC basketball leagues as the competition above us, and the SEC and Big 12 basketball leagues, and maybe the Aresco League and PAC 12 as the competition on our level. Now, we'll take pieces from the A-10 and MVC, but we're not doing it to weaken those leagues, we're doing it to strengthen ourselves. (On that note, I dont think the Aresco LEague is looking at Tulsa and USM and thinking "which one weakens CUSA more.")

Quote:I'm betting the C7 goes with those three and signs a contract. Then after that contract is signed, they move forward a few years, survey the landscape to see who is relevant (remember Charlotte is also leaving the A-10, Temple left, ODU left the CAA) and then pounce on two more and sign a new contract.

I don't think we count on the TV rights bubble continuing to rise. (Fox is spending money now because they're rolling out a new network now.) The contract we sign now is the contract we expect to stay with. So whatever teams we have in 2014-15 are the teams we expect to have in 2024-25.

I wish the Aresco league was smart enough to grab UMass, VCU, Charlotte, or Dayton if they are still on the table. I am not a huge fan of adding Tulsa and calling it a day. The C7 isn't going to take everyone so there are enough good basketball schools in the east that could help that league rebuild.

C7 adding Creighton isn't my favorite move; however, they could be number 12 after Xavier, Butler, Dayton, and St. Louis.

Both conferences will have issues maintaing power conference status. The C7's issue will be they don't play football and membership will look like a super A-10. The New Big East's problem is that too many schools are southern members from C-USA plus there isn't an AQ bid. The Aresco league more than the other needs to get out of the south and rebuild with northeastern school.

(02-08-2013 10:05 AM)S11 Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 09:57 AM)stever20 Wrote:  How about 20 years. In those 20 years, no losing years, and only 1 year with RPI higher than 90.

The Zags have been awesome. However your decision needs to be based on the NEXT 50 years and not the past 20. Few will likely be around a while but what happens after him? What if they make a bad hire? That is a ton of travel cost to incur for a league with outposts in Providence, NYC, DC, and Philly.

If the Zags were located further east they'd be the top pick but they aren't.

Few isn't the first coach to do well at Gonzaga, he's the second -- Dan Monson was 52-17 there before leaving for a "bigger" job. So, Few is more like Gary Patterson (second coach in a row to win at TCU) and not like Bill Snyder (the only football coach at K-State who has ever been better than awful).

But yeah, the travel between Spokane and the east coast would be a deal-breaker. If Gonzaga wants out of the WCC that badly, they should be trying to get into the MWC (which has 11 teams for hoops b/c Hawaii only plays FB in the MWC).

Agreed, i could see the 5 eastern catholics demand one eastern school if the league goes to 12, which i think they should. Actually, i like going to 14 and bring in 2 eastern school's to pair with the 5 catholic and have 7 in the west or midwest. Disagree, that they can't look at umass. UMass football isn't much and has a football only invite to mac anyway, so this league doesn't need to worry about it. I'd go with large markets and few large school's to make the most $. If the new league wants to be 100% pure, they should focus on holy cross or duquesne but i don't think that brings the $ or visibility. The problem with the big east and football was the big east let football change things which would never be the case with the c7. If 1 or 2 school's have football program, everybody would know its a solo venture for those school's.

(02-08-2013 10:20 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Dayton has been to the tourney 7 times in the last 45 years, with wins in only 3 of those years. Gonzaga has been there 14 straight years, winning in 11 of those years.

Georgetown has been there only 7 times in the last 15 years. That doesn't make Gonzaga a better program, just hotter. Butler has made the NCAA finals 2 out of 3 years. That doesn't make them better than Georgetown. Its still no contest.

(02-08-2013 11:34 AM)bluesox Wrote:  UMass football isn't much and has a football only invite to mac anyway, so this league doesn't need to worry about it. I'd go with large markets and few large school's to make the most $.

If we take in a New England state flagship with an FBS football program, knowing their propensity to leave us to move up in football, it will be UConn, not UMass. And I don't think UConn is calling.

UMass doesn't make anybody any money,

Quote:If 1 or 2 school's have football program, everybody would know its a solo venture for those school's.

IF you're an FBS school, you're a flight risk. So you better be bringing some basketball hardware and credibility to offset that. No national championships? No Final Fours lately? Then go find an FBS conference. No Notre Dame, no UMass, no Western Kentucky, no no no.

Seriously, it's a very open question whether we'd want UConn, knowing that they'd be a flight risk to the ACC. So why would we want UMass, who would be a flight risk to the Aresco League or a full membership in the MAC?

The C7's best play, IMHO, would be to proceed slowly. Take Xavier and Butler to get to nine schools and then reassess the situation. That would give teams a 16 game league schedule of double round robin games.

Then, if the money is right, expand to 10 schools and adopt an 18 game double round robin schedule. Of the teams vying for that 10th spot would be of course Dayton, Creighton, St. Louis, etc. Personally, I would take Creighton and then I would circle back to UD and SLU if I wanted to get to 12 teams.

Richmond would be way down my list for a number of reasons.

(02-08-2013 10:20 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Dayton has been to the tourney 7 times in the last 45 years, with wins in only 3 of those years. Gonzaga has been there 14 straight years, winning in 11 of those years.

Your math isn't quite right. Its 7 times in 42 years. Of course, you don't mention they went 5 of the 6 years prior to that in a time when only 25 schools made the tourney. They've also been to the NIT 13 times in that 42 years, despite that 12 year bad spell they had where they only made a tourney once.

it's 7 times since 1975. The point remains that they aren't remotely close to Gonzaga at all.

(02-08-2013 11:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 10:20 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Dayton has been to the tourney 7 times in the last 45 years, with wins in only 3 of those years. Gonzaga has been there 14 straight years, winning in 11 of those years.

Georgetown has been there only 7 times in the last 15 years. That doesn't make Gonzaga a better program, just hotter. Butler has made the NCAA finals 2 out of 3 years. That doesn't make them better than Georgetown. Its still no contest.

Georgetown isn't the one trying to join. Huge difference there. Gonzaga has more NCAA wins than Dayton ever. Same with Butler. Dayton has 14 NCAA wins in their history.

(02-08-2013 11:34 AM)bluesox Wrote:  Agreed, i could see the 5 eastern catholics demand one eastern school if the league goes to 12, which i think they should.

They should add at least one more "east coast" school because that's where the largest population base is -- it would be a mistake to add five schools and have none of them on the east coast.

If the C7 can't reach a consensus on an east coast school right now, maybe they should add only Xavier and Butler for now. There might not be a reason to add more unless Fox promises enough money to make further expansion worth it to them.

(02-08-2013 11:57 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 11:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 10:20 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Dayton has been to the tourney 7 times in the last 45 years, with wins in only 3 of those years. Gonzaga has been there 14 straight years, winning in 11 of those years.

Georgetown has been there only 7 times in the last 15 years. That doesn't make Gonzaga a better program, just hotter. Butler has made the NCAA finals 2 out of 3 years. That doesn't make them better than Georgetown. Its still no contest.

Georgetown isn't the one trying to join. Huge difference there. Gonzaga has more NCAA wins than Dayton ever. Same with Butler. Dayton has 14 NCAA wins in their history.

3 bad years and Gonzaga is forgotten. They never made the tourney before 1995. They never won a game until 1999. Only two coaches have ever won a tourney game at Gonzaga. Its a small school with small (compared to Dayton) fan support in an isolated part of Washington. You build up equity over a long period of time.

(02-08-2013 11:17 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 11:12 AM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote:  I don't see Gonzaga being any part of this...the geography just cant work when you factor mid week flying through that many time zones.

The goal of the C7 is to be the end all be all best "all basketball" conference in the country. You dont have to get Gonzaga to do that, you have to weaken the competition (and I don't consider the Big West the competition). Adding Creighton weakens the MVC, adding Butler and Xavier weakens the A-10.

I'm betting the C7 goes with those three and signs a contract. Then after that contract is signed, they move forward a few years, survey the landscape to see who is relevant (remember Charlotte is also leaving the A-10, Temple left, ODU left the CAA) and then pounce on two more and sign a new contract. Conference re-alignment is a slow methodical process (unless you get massively raided) with the goal to increase TV revenues. Commissioners always have to start low and work their way up. That 10 team alignment will make them relevant and allow them room to grow (programs & revenues) in the future.

The problem is you generally wouldn't get full value for the 2 new adds as if you were truly signing a new contract.

The problem going with 10 is you leave the A10 extremely viable. Tourney teams in SLU, VCU, and La Salle at least.

You know what I'm saying...renegotiate the contract with two new teams after signing the initial contract. Of the schools you listed in the A-10, the only one that would concern the C7 would be VCU because they are on a roll right now...but what would keep the C7 from grabbing BOTH Richmond and VCU at the same time through a next expansion and commanding that market, if both are at the top of the A-10 and bring credits with them. As it is, they contradict each other...if you add one you almost have to add both....so maybe you add neither and hope they fail under an A-10 banner that doesn't include heavyweights Xavier and Temple anymore.

UMass is a different story because its destined to combine its sports somewhere in either CUSA or the Aresco league. St Joe's and Dayton may be the long term most viable, over SLU and La Salle.

(02-08-2013 12:07 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 11:57 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 11:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-08-2013 10:20 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Dayton has been to the tourney 7 times in the last 45 years, with wins in only 3 of those years. Gonzaga has been there 14 straight years, winning in 11 of those years.

Georgetown has been there only 7 times in the last 15 years. That doesn't make Gonzaga a better program, just hotter. Butler has made the NCAA finals 2 out of 3 years. That doesn't make them better than Georgetown. Its still no contest.

Georgetown isn't the one trying to join. Huge difference there. Gonzaga has more NCAA wins than Dayton ever. Same with Butler. Dayton has 14 NCAA wins in their history.

3 bad years and Gonzaga is forgotten. They never made the tourney before 1995. They never won a game until 1999. Only two coaches have ever won a tourney game at Gonzaga. Its a small school with small (compared to Dayton) fan support in an isolated part of Washington. You build up equity over a long period of time.

but what are the odds they have 3 bad years? Not good. What are the odds that Dayton turns into DePaul? fairly decent.

If they leave Dayton out while adding xavier i will never watch a game of this league. That would be totally unfair. They are basically the same with Dayton probably being an overall better school with not as much success in basketball as xavier

(02-08-2013 12:30 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  If they leave Dayton out while adding xavier i will never watch a game of this league. That would be totally unfair. They are basically the same with Dayton probably being an overall better school with not as much success in basketball as xavier

not sure why that would suprise you. Markets are the only thing some of those idiots care about. IMO, Dayton & Xavier SHOULD be in the same league and gonzaga & maybe Creighton are too far west.

If it were up to me I'd do this.

West = DePaul, Marquette, SLU, Butler, Xavier, Dayton
East = PC, SJU, SHU, Nova, GTown, UR

That makes a hell of a lot more sense in my mind than getting into a mixed bag of geographic outliers & public schools that don't fit the mold culturally like Gonzaga, VCU & WSU just for the sake of having the "hottest teams" right now. Sometimes people forget this is an ALL SPORTS conference not just hoops.

I'd love it if the NBE could snag VCU to offset Navy & give ECU somebody close for an all sports rival.

(02-08-2013 11:22 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

Quote:The goal of the C7 is to be the end all be all best "all basketball" conference in the country. You dont have to get Gonzaga to do that, you have to weaken the competition (and I don't consider the Big West the competition). Adding Creighton weakens the MVC, adding Butler and Xavier weakens the A-10.

I don't think we really see the A-10 and MVC as our competition--if they're close to our level, we've failed as an "elite basketball conference".

We see the Big Ten and ACC basketball leagues as the competition above us, and the SEC and Big 12 basketball leagues, and maybe the Aresco League and PAC 12 as the competition on our level. Now, we'll take pieces from the A-10 and MVC, but we're not doing it to weaken those leagues, we're doing it to strengthen ourselves. (On that note, I dont think the Aresco LEague is looking at Tulsa and USM and thinking "which one weakens CUSA more.")

Quote:I'm betting the C7 goes with those three and signs a contract. Then after that contract is signed, they move forward a few years, survey the landscape to see who is relevant (remember Charlotte is also leaving the A-10, Temple left, ODU left the CAA) and then pounce on two more and sign a new contract.

I don't think we count on the TV rights bubble continuing to rise. (Fox is spending money now because they're rolling out a new network now.) The contract we sign now is the contract we expect to stay with. So whatever teams we have in 2014-15 are the teams we expect to have in 2024-25.

As for the A-10 being competition,I think the A-10 as currently established is a better bb conference than the C-7. Now that will change after the C-7 and others raid the A-10, but Butler, VCU, Temple, XU, St.L, Dayton, Richmond & UMass (not to mention LaSalle & the rest) are better than the C-7. So the A-10 currently is definitely the C-7's competition. Which is why, of course, the C-7 will cherrypick the A-10's best.