(01-03-2013 04:30 AM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  Why are people including St. Joseph's as a potential candidate? Villanova won't allow them under any circumstance and it wouldn't make sense anyhow.

Holy Cross, Northeastern, or Hartford all have better chances than St. Joseph's or LaSalle based on how Villanova has always treated other local teams.

I also don't think VCU or Wichita State gets in unless a decision is made to form a 16-school basketball super conference. Otherwise it will be all private.

Totally agree St. Joe's won't be a candidate and I'm okay with that. They don't really add anything we don't have currently. I'm still not sure why people think our league is anti public school. We just left a league with public schools that we had great rivalries with, ultimately it was those schools fascination with football that led to our split. If we can find public schools that aren't football schools why would we be like nope sorry, private only!

VCU's in an interesting spot. If the C7 doesn't invite them but takes X, Buter, Dayton and St. Louis from the A-10, the A-10 will have a lot more in common with the CAA than they will this year's version. They want to commit to being a top-notch basketball school, but if they're treated as an anomaly because they're a large public school, then the best way to preserve the basketball program might be to add FBS football as quickly as possible and try to get on with the nBE or CUSA. I don't know who the A-10 would add to replace the four schools they'd lose in this scenario, but they're almost certainly not adding any schools that improve on the departing ones.

If the C-7 is determined to ditch UC and UConn, they should invite Dayton, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton. That's it, keep it at 11.

Why is 12 better than 11? With 11 you can play a 20-game home-and-home schedule. None of the other candidates would pull their own weight, so a 12th team would just be another mouth to feed.

(01-03-2013 10:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If the C-7 is determined to ditch UC and UConn, they should invite Dayton, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton. That's it, keep it at 11.

Why is 12 better than 11? With 11 you can play a 20-game home-and-home schedule. None of the other candidates would pull their own weight, so a 12th team would just be another mouth to feed.

Yeah, why drag around VCU and the dead weight of Shaka Smart and his Final Four banner?

man, just thinking about it, I wish there were some way that we could get Gonzaga involved. They are so darn good. They are the one former "mid-major" that has been around forever. Remind me a ton of Boise in football, except they're generally accepted even more- and have done it for even longer than Boise. I mean- they've finished in the top 100 of the RPI every year except 1996-97 when they were 184th. Since 1998-99, they've finished in the top 75 every year, and top 50 all but 3 years(and made tourney even with that every year- going 17-14). And- every year except for 2002 and 2007 they won at least 1 NCAA game. Just think about that. They'd be a school that would definitely enhance the league considerably- more than any school we could potentially add. The thing would be the other sports. Could it work out financially? Maybe, if there was a travel partner with them I guess...

(01-02-2013 11:28 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 11:26 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(01-02-2013 10:54 AM)bostonspider Wrote:  80% of VCU's Athletic revenue is from Student Fees, which is prety doable when you have 30K students. But there is a limit to the amount of fees students will accept. Looks like using those numbers it is approximately $580.00 per year per student.

While thats true they can ease that burden by increasing it's TV revenue and NCAA credits the new league will receive.

And, once things are rolling and VCU is, by far, Richmond's #1 local sports brand, signage and sponsorship rates go up, merchandising, etc. T-shirts and sweatshirts and ball caps, oh my.

There's not really a burden to ease. First, VCU tuition and fees are below the national average for a four-year public, and well below the VA average. Second, the note on VCU's arena was just paid off. Aside from filling in the corners to get to ~9,000 seats and a new basketball practice facility, there aren't any major capital projects planned for athletics, so the costs drop to salaries, travel, etc.

(01-03-2013 03:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  VCU's in an interesting spot. If the C7 doesn't invite them but takes X, Buter, Dayton and St. Louis from the A-10, the A-10 will have a lot more in common with the CAA than they will this year's version. They want to commit to being a top-notch basketball school, but if they're treated as an anomaly because they're a large public school, then the best way to preserve the basketball program might be to add FBS football as quickly as possible and try to get on with the nBE or CUSA. I don't know who the A-10 would add to replace the four schools they'd lose in this scenario, but they're almost certainly not adding any schools that improve on the departing ones.

A diminished A10 won't be any worse than the old CAA. As for "saving" basketball with football, no chance. The support is not there, and many are actively and adamantly against it. Besides, we only need to look at the long under-performing ODU basketball program to see how that little experiment has turned out. What should have been a down year for them is going to be their 2nd losingest season in 37 years of basketball. No thanks.

(01-04-2013 01:31 AM)stever20 Wrote:  man, just thinking about it, I wish there were some way that we could get Gonzaga involved. They are so darn good. They are the one former "mid-major" that has been around forever.

I'm willing to guess that the majority of fans (both on this forum and in general) started paying attention to basketball fairly recently. It may seem like Gonzaga has been THE mid-major powerhouse forever, but in reality they never appeared in the tournament before 1994.

They had 22 different coaches before they started having real success. The only thing to take from this is that basketball has been played for longer than 20 years, though often we tend to forget that and focus in on the present.

(01-03-2013 10:55 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 10:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If the C-7 is determined to ditch UC and UConn, they should invite Dayton, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton. That's it, keep it at 11.

Why is 12 better than 11? With 11 you can play a 20-game home-and-home schedule. None of the other candidates would pull their own weight, so a 12th team would just be another mouth to feed.

Yeah, why drag around VCU and the dead weight of Shaka Smart and his Final Four banner?

You're forgetting that 2011 was VCU's first and only Sweet 16 appearance in their history. And they were the last team in the tournament, and by all rights, Colorado should have made the tournament over them.

Adding teams based on one year of performance, or one coach, is foolish. Should the Big East have added UMass in 1997 after their Final Four run? Or St. Joe's in 2006 after they spent most of the season ranked #1 and went to the Elite 8? Of course not; those moves would have been silly. Same thing with VCU.

(01-04-2013 07:36 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 10:55 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 10:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If the C-7 is determined to ditch UC and UConn, they should invite Dayton, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton. That's it, keep it at 11.

Why is 12 better than 11? With 11 you can play a 20-game home-and-home schedule. None of the other candidates would pull their own weight, so a 12th team would just be another mouth to feed.

Yeah, why drag around VCU and the dead weight of Shaka Smart and his Final Four banner?

You're forgetting that 2011 was VCU's first and only Sweet 16 appearance in their history. And they were the last team in the tournament, and by all rights, Colorado should have made the tournament over them.

Adding teams based on one year of performance, or one coach, is foolish. Should the Big East have added UMass in 1997 after their Final Four run? Or St. Joe's in 2006 after they spent most of the season ranked #1 and went to the Elite 8? Of course not; those moves would have been silly. Same thing with VCU.

Except that, as I'm doing the spreadsheet, VCU looks less and less like a one-year wonder. Top 25 in Division I winning percentage (63%), 11 tournament appearances. 5 of those were in the last 10 years, under 3 different coaches. I'm a lot more comfortable with VCU performing in the Big East long term than I am Creighton or Dayton--being in the Big East could get Creighton or Dayton over that hump, but VCU is already over that hump. Creighton and Dayton have one tournament win each in the last ten years. VCU, in an elite conference, could easily become the #1 college basketball program in Virginia. Dayton would still be behind Xavier, Cincinatti and Ohio State, and Creighton would still be in Nebraska.

(01-04-2013 07:14 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 01:31 AM)stever20 Wrote:  man, just thinking about it, I wish there were some way that we could get Gonzaga involved. They are so darn good. They are the one former "mid-major" that has been around forever.

I'm willing to guess that the majority of fans (both on this forum and in general) started paying attention to basketball fairly recently. It may seem like Gonzaga has been THE mid-major powerhouse forever, but in reality they never appeared in the tournament before 1994.

They had 22 different coaches before they started having real success. The only thing to take from this is that basketball has been played for longer than 20 years, though often we tend to forget that and focus in on the present.

Powerful mid-majors do not stick around for long. Historically, teams that do well for 5-10 years are will soon get invited to move up and become a part of the establishment. Pretty soon, we forget that they were ever considered mid-majors.

Here are some examples of former "mid-major" schools moving up after sustained success:
Colorado joined the Big 8 in 1948 (although the Mountain States Conference has many schools which are considered "major" today, it was a minor conference back then)
Michigan State joined the Big 10 in 1953 (formerly independent)
Oklahoma State joined the Big 8 in 1960 (formerly in the MVC, although they had previously been in a "major" conference, the SWC)
Houston joined the Southwest Conference in 1976 (formerly independent, and in the MVC and Gulf Coast Conferences before that)
In 1975, the Metro Conference created a new "major" conference from former "majors" who had left their conferences (South Carolina, Georgia Tech, and Tulane), the top 1/3 of the MVC (Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, SLU), and Florida State (a newer program, but probably the best indy in the South at the time).
Arizona and Arizona State joined the PAC-10 in 1978 (formerly in the WAC and the Border Conference before that)
Miami joined the Big East in 1991 (formerly independent)
Cincinnati and Louisville joined the Big East in 2005 (formerly in C-USA, although they previously had been in a "major" conference in the Metro)
Marquette and Depaul joined the Big East in 2005 (formerly C-USA, but were added due to their outstanding performance while there)
Utah joined the PAC-12 in 2011 (had never been in a major conference)

The difference with Gonzaga is in the corner of the country that is least populated. There are fewer viable conferences there, so reallignment doesn't happen as often.

(01-04-2013 08:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 07:36 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 10:55 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 10:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If the C-7 is determined to ditch UC and UConn, they should invite Dayton, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton. That's it, keep it at 11.

Why is 12 better than 11? With 11 you can play a 20-game home-and-home schedule. None of the other candidates would pull their own weight, so a 12th team would just be another mouth to feed.

Yeah, why drag around VCU and the dead weight of Shaka Smart and his Final Four banner?

You're forgetting that 2011 was VCU's first and only Sweet 16 appearance in their history. And they were the last team in the tournament, and by all rights, Colorado should have made the tournament over them.

Adding teams based on one year of performance, or one coach, is foolish. Should the Big East have added UMass in 1997 after their Final Four run? Or St. Joe's in 2006 after they spent most of the season ranked #1 and went to the Elite 8? Of course not; those moves would have been silly. Same thing with VCU.

Except that, as I'm doing the spreadsheet, VCU looks less and less like a one-year wonder. Top 25 in Division I winning percentage (63%), 11 tournament appearances. 5 of those were in the last 10 years, under 3 different coaches. I'm a lot more comfortable with VCU performing in the Big East long term than I am Creighton or Dayton--being in the Big East could get Creighton or Dayton over that hump, but VCU is already over that hump. Creighton and Dayton have one tournament win each in the last ten years. VCU, in an elite conference, could easily become the #1 college basketball program in Virginia. Dayton would still be behind Xavier, Cincinatti and Ohio State, and Creighton would still be in Nebraska.

In what world is Creighton behind Nebraska in basketball? I don't think there's a single person in that state that would say they are. Creighton may not have had a lot of post season success, but they're light years ahead of Nebraska in basketball.

(01-05-2013 11:53 AM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(01-04-2013 08:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  VCU, in an elite conference, could easily become the #1 college basketball program in Virginia. Dayton would still be behind Xavier, Cincinatti and Ohio State, and Creighton would still be in Nebraska.

In what world is Creighton behind Nebraska in basketball? I don't think there's a single person in that state that would say they are. Creighton may not have had a lot of post season success, but they're light years ahead of Nebraska in basketball.

No, I said they'd be *IN* Nebraska. They're ahead of the Cornhuskers in hoops. But they're still in Nebraska no matter what.

My bad. Based on the previous two comments I read it the same way.

(01-04-2013 04:22 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 03:15 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  VCU's in an interesting spot. If the C7 doesn't invite them but takes X, Buter, Dayton and St. Louis from the A-10, the A-10 will have a lot more in common with the CAA than they will this year's version. They want to commit to being a top-notch basketball school, but if they're treated as an anomaly because they're a large public school, then the best way to preserve the basketball program might be to add FBS football as quickly as possible and try to get on with the nBE or CUSA. I don't know who the A-10 would add to replace the four schools they'd lose in this scenario, but they're almost certainly not adding any schools that improve on the departing ones.

A diminished A10 won't be any worse than the old CAA. As for "saving" basketball with football, no chance. The support is not there, and many are actively and adamantly against it. Besides, we only need to look at the long under-performing ODU basketball program to see how that little experiment has turned out. What should have been a down year for them is going to be their 2nd losingest season in 37 years of basketball. No thanks.

It depends on what you're replacing the departing four teams with. There aren't that many strong basketball programs in the East that aren't already part of the A-10 or C7: George Mason and *maybe* Charleston from the current/future CAA (Drexel's a small school that doesn't add much more of the Philly area than the A-10 already has, plus there'd probably be pushback from St. Joe's and LaSalle), Davidson from the SoCon, Iona and Siena from the MAAC, Stony Brook from the AE and ... I'm running out of ideas. Belmont? Hofstra? Christopher Newport puts a buttload of money into their athletics all of a sudden? Whoever you get to replace Xavier/Dayton/St. Louis/Butler will be a marked downgrade in the short-term and probably not close long-term either. It's better than CAA (particularly without ODU) but a far cry from the A-10 as constructed this or next season.

ODU's basketball problems have nothing to do with football. If they defend that last shot against Butler two years ago, there's a not-unreasonable chance they make Butler's run and land in the Final Four opposite VCU, bringing one of the most underrated college hoops rivalries to the national forefront in one of the most unlikeliest circumstances imaginable. A couple of less-than-great recruiting classes and, well, the margin between great and butt-awful is razor-thin in the mid-major neighborhood.

If the A-10 loses all four of Xavier, Dayton, Butler, and St. Louis, there will be 10 schools remaining. The league might be better off reviewing all options.

* UMass (potential BE candidate) *

Rhode Island \ Fordham
St. Bonaventure \ Duquesne
St. Joseph's \ LaSalle
George Washington \ ??????????
Richmond \ VCU

If the A-10 also loses UMass, it probably makes sense to add George Mason, assuming George Washington doesn't insist on being the only DC area team.

(01-05-2013 07:40 PM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  If the A-10 loses all four of Xavier, Dayton, Butler, and St. Louis, there will be 10 schools remaining. The league might be better off reviewing all options.

* UMass (potential BE candidate) *

Rhode Island \ Fordham
St. Bonaventure \ Duquesne
St. Joseph's \ LaSalle
George Washington \ ??????????
Richmond \ VCU

If the A-10 also loses UMass, it probably makes sense to add George Mason, assuming George Washington doesn't insist on being the only DC area team.

who would they add? maybe siena, detroit, fairfield or northeastern?

(01-05-2013 07:40 PM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  If the A-10 loses all four of Xavier, Dayton, Butler, and St. Louis, there will be 10 schools remaining. The league might be better off reviewing all options.

* UMass (potential BE candidate) *

Rhode Island \ Fordham
St. Bonaventure \ Duquesne
St. Joseph's \ LaSalle
George Washington \ ??????????
Richmond \ VCU

If the A-10 also loses UMass, it probably makes sense to add George Mason, assuming George Washington doesn't insist on being the only DC area team.

If the A-10 loses four, they definitely should at least two more teams to defend against future movement. But unless the Catholics go to a 16-team model, they probably won't poach any more A-10 teams, so the only movement outside UMass eventually finding an all-sports home, might be if a couple of the lighterweights (Fordham?) decides to drop down a level in competition.

Mason will eventually move to the A-10. GW probably can't block them even if they chose to; Richmond is a far smaller area and it has two members.

SLU would give their right arm to be part of the C7, the biggest problem is Father Biondi is a pain in the a--. Rick Majerus said something like "He'd charge Mother Theresa for parking" which is no exaggeration.

A couple of things. Detroit wouldn't make any sense in an A-10 that has lost all of its other schools from the Midwest. Richmond wanted VCU to join the A-10, and went to bat for them, while we don't know what the situation is between GWU and GMU but rumors suggest it's not too rosy. Of course GWU might just be persuaded support GMU if the other alternative is a candidate like UMBC. In the North, if UMass leaves, pick two schools to get to 12 from among Northeastern, Hartford, Siena, and Hofstra, keeping in mind that one will be geographically paired with Rhode Island, and the other with Fordham.