(06-02-2012 08:49 PM)ndlutz Wrote:  Penn State in general isn't bad. Unfortunately, you can't really say that there were just a few bad apples in this whole situation, either.

My stance is that just about everyone in this situation was wrong. I think that the attitude at Penn State is still that they would rather just sweep everything under the rug and go back to business as usual. I think this is evidenced by some of the new board members not running on platforms of outrage because the school is embarrassed about what has happened with the children but rather on outrage that Paterno was fired for this.

I'm not going to make a call for them to shut down their football program but I think they need to seriously evaluate their priorities.

I can agree with that, but I don't think it's fair to the thousands of PSU Alumni who have nothing to do with any of that crap to continue to hold their feet to hot steel... I think enough is enough.

(06-03-2012 03:40 AM)BadWillHunting Wrote:  I don't think it's fair to the thousands of PSU Alumni who have nothing to do with any of that crap to continue to hold their feet to hot steel... I think enough is enough.

I happen to think you're wrong, silly, and juvenile in your thinking here...

If Penn State alums loved their university so much, they should have taken care to see that it maintained the high standards professed when they attended. The future of every university is guided by its alumni, and look where PSU alums guided their university...

I've got no sympathy...

(06-03-2012 06:35 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(06-03-2012 03:40 AM)BadWillHunting Wrote:  I don't think it's fair to the thousands of PSU Alumni who have nothing to do with any of that crap to continue to hold their feet to hot steel... I think enough is enough.

I happen to think you're wrong, silly, and juvenile in your thinking here...

If Penn State alums loved their university so much, they should have taken care to see that it maintained the high standards professed when they attended. The future of every university is guided by its alumni, and look where PSU alums guided their university...

I've got no sympathy...

Exactly. Penn State alumni actually SUPPORTED Paterno through all this.

In the end, the guilty will have been be punished (prosecuted, sued, fired).

Since I have kids and lots of nieces & nephews about to start college, I look at it from that perspective. There are a lot of innocent families who have been Penn State fans forever. Parents have saved for years for their kids to go to school there. They and their kids dreamed of Saturdays in the fall, playing Ohio State, ND, Michigan, etc. And now their college experience is diminished because of the evil actions of a few individuals.

I have no sympathy for child molesters. And I have no connection to Penn State. But I'm ready to move on.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it...
Jorge Agustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana y Borrás - Life of Reason

When it comes to the university itself, you can't forgive PSU until we 1) see the completed investigations into who did what in the coverups, 2) see the school acknowledge that there were fundamental lapses in judgement when it came to the access Sandusky was given to underage kids and that they are taking steps to change their policies to protect children and 3) see all of those in positions of responsibility that were responsible for poor judgements and covering up these crimes are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. After all that is done, then the court of public opinion can begin to forgive PSU for what happened.

Regarding the alumni, I think this is much trickier. Despite the fact that football is a huge deal at PSU, I'm sure that a large percentage of the students and alumni did not follow football very closely. It happens at all universities because no matter where the schools are located, there are a variety of outlets that the students can pursue without becoming rabid football fans. The alumni need to be judged on a case by case basis IMO.

They're not even done investigating, why would it be time to forgive what we honestly don't know yet? On top of the whole grand jury criminal actions, I believe the Department of Education is nosing around because not reporting crime(s) occurring on campus is a massive, massive no-no. Throw in possible civil suits and this crap will likely be going on for most of the remainder of the decade.

Jerry Sandusky was a highly regarded assistant coach, yet no other university attempted to hire him after his sudden early retirement. I hope the investigation studies what the grapevine whispered and when it whispered it.

Forgiveness cannot come before remorse, And I have see utterly no remorse out of State College PA. Hell, by this fall, the ESPiN will be how noble their football team and fans are for "overcoming adversity."

(06-03-2012 07:56 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  In the end, the guilty will have been be punished (prosecuted, sued, fired).

Since I have kids and lots of nieces & nephews about to start college, I look at it from that perspective. There are a lot of innocent families who have been Penn State fans forever. Parents have saved for years for their kids to go to school there. They and their kids dreamed of Saturdays in the fall, playing Ohio State, ND, Michigan, etc. And now their college experience is diminished because of the evil actions of a few individuals.

I have no sympathy for child molesters. And I have no connection to Penn State. But I'm ready to move on.

yep, and there are a # of family s who had their sons lives destroyed because the sat on their A$$ while he preyed on young boys. Sorry they should suffer a few years for what they allowed to go on.

Yeah, I don't get this, "The Penn State community has suffered enough" mentality at all. And I mean AT ALL!

THEY HAVEN'T SUFFERED AT ALL AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! The people who HAVE ACTUALLY SUFFERED haven't even had their day in court yet and we're already trying to shut them up so that we can all forget this all ever happened?

I'm sorry but that's insane and it is NOT FAIR to those poor innocent children!

I'm not interested in crucifying every person on the planet who has some sort of connection to Penn State. That would be absurd too. As I said, I am married to one and they are not all brainwashed idiots who refuse to look at the broader picture. Many of them are fully cognizant of exactly what happened.

It's really analogous to the Cathloic church sex scandals. Some of my fellow Catholics were like me and immediately grasped the gravity of the charges, were ashamed by them, and demanded answers and assurances that something like it would never happen again. Others just wanted it to go away and for us to never speak of it again. And still others tried in vain to defend the actions of Cardinal Law and others.

That doesn't mean that I'm not still a proud Catholic because I am and I always will be. Also, in my mind, the priest sex scandals don't nullify all of the wonderful things Catholics around the world have done and still do for their fellow man. However nor do those other things give certain members within the church a license to do as they please. And I will not defend the indefensible, no matter how much I love and cherish my faith. In fact, I demanded those answers and assurances precisely BECAUSE I love and cherish my faith.

I think you can apply all of those same principles to Penn State but on a smaller scale. Many more "get it" than don't but those who don't get it, they REALLY don't get it and they embarrass themselves and their university everytime they open their mouths and try to make this some sort of bizarre superficial defense of Joe Paterno's legacy rather than about what can be done there to insure that their insular culture that appears to have aided and abbetted Sandusky doesn't serve the same function for other misdeeds and other bad actors going forward.

THAT is the crisis, not restoring the freaking football coach's good name!

I realize that for every MORON rioting in the streets of State College because their infallible king had been deposed, there were dozens of kids sitting in their dorms room feeling terribly for those poor kinds and who were embarrassed by what had happened. Those kids were also OUTRAGED by how poorly their university had handled everything and how foolish some of their classmates were making the entire university look. I have spoken with several such people.

I absolutely want to know who knew what and when and what did they do about it? And for the people who did cover up things, why and for how long?

This marathon still has many more miles to go. This is BY FAR the worst scandal in the history of American sports and it will take years if not decades to sort everything out. Personally, I think the longer this drags on the worse it is going to be for Penn State as a whole and particularly for guys like Curley, Shults, Spanier and even Paterno. I think they all knew and I think we're going to find that out in the coming years.

(06-03-2012 12:39 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I realize that for every MORON rioting in the streets of State College because their infallible king had been deposed, there were dozens of kids sitting in their dorms room feeling terribly for those poor kinds and who were embarrassed by what had happened.

Unfortunately, that ratio isn't even close to being correct, and anyone that has spent any time in Central Pennsylvania knows that to be true.

I'm originally from that area. The mentality there is sad and sick. People I respect as intelligent individuals are completely in defensive, blame-shifting brainwashed cult mode. They have no idea how it is playing outside the bubble of PSU. And that is what it is, a bubble. It really has been enlightening for me about how a cult-of-personality can take root.

Nope. Not even close to time to "forgive" an institution that felt it was more important to protect its football program than children. Ped State as an institution, its coaches, and its fans, in general, acted despicably, and deserve whatever comes from it.

Cannot forgive.

1. McQueary for not helping the child he saw Sandusky raping, Paterno's lack of action on McQueary's discovery
2. Paterno's lack of action on McQueary's information.
3. The cover up as an institution that allowed this animal to remain a presence on campus, WITH CHILDREN!
4. The student reaction in total support of the buffoon Paterno.
   

It also disgusts me that McQueary feels like he has been wronged enough to sue Ped State for wrongful termination.

All of it is disgusting.

(06-03-2012 03:51 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Unfortunately, that ratio isn't even close to being correct, and anyone that has spent any time in Central Pennsylvania knows that to be true.

I'm originally from that area. The mentality there is sad and sick. People I respect as intelligent individuals are completely in defensive, blame-shifting brainwashed cult mode. They have no idea how it is playing outside the bubble of PSU. And that is what it is, a bubble. It really has been enlightening for me about how a cult-of-personality can take root.

Well, if that's true, that is terribly unfortunate. I can only speak to the percentage of the people that I know and of those people many are definitely embarrassed by the scandal and the bizarre reaction to it by the students and their fellow alums.

Even my wife has said she has no desire to go to any more games up there for the foreseeable future. That was very surprising to hear but perhaps it shouldn't have been?

My wife just feels sick to her stomach about the whole sordid affair and she cannot believe that so many of her fellow alums have missed the point so egregiously by completely ignoring the atoriciites committed against dozens of innocent children and have instead attempted to make this about defending the honor of Joe Paterno - and by extension, the university itself.

It really has reshaped how she looks at her alma mater as a whole and certainly not in a good way. Most of her college friends seem to agree but some of them are full on cult members and there is no reasoning with those folks.

It's not up to me to "forgive" Penn State or any of the individuals. I was not harmed in this situation. Only those affected by what they did (the kids and their families) have the power to forgive.

I'm just a bystander (1,500 miles away) who hopes and trusts the guilty will be punished.

They need to shut the program down for a year.

(06-04-2012 06:31 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  They need to shut the program down for a year.

Tulane shut down its MBB program for 4 years over a point-shaving scandal. Penn State will shut down its football program for 0 years over a child-molestation scandal.

Different institutions, different priorities...

(06-04-2012 06:36 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(06-04-2012 06:31 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  They need to shut the program down for a year.

Tulane shut down its MBB program for 4 years over a point-shaving scandal. Penn State will shut down its football program for 0 years over a child-molestation scandal.

Different institutions, different priorities...

Different eras too. People had consistent morals back then. That's not the case today...

I will wait until after the trial to see what there is to forgive. Not that my forgiveness means anything, but until the trial, we don't know anything but the allegations.

Sent from my Toshiba Thrive using Tapatalk2.

Everybody is way to quick to forgive in this society. Sometimes we have to hold ourselves and others to a higher standard. Adults covered up child molesters. That is not something that should be quickly forgiven. Its more like a scarlet letter. We all know those poor victims will live with it the rest of their lives.

I agree. Folks are too quick on the forgiveness here. So we will end this discussion on that note...

Penn State does not deserve forgiveness at this time. After the investigation is over, you can revisit this...