BTW, it's not 100 years ago. It's 2010.

(04-26-2010 08:03 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(04-26-2010 07:58 PM)mistabinks Wrote:  I know some on here truly believe all children of illegals become gang bangers, criminals, and what not.

Your mistaken. No one on here believes that.

I would like to think you are right. A lot of the comments in this thread make me think otherwise. I would love to be wrong.

(04-26-2010 08:26 PM)Rebel Wrote:  I don't believe people should be stopped in the streets and asked to show papers, but something needs to be done. This IS a big effin' deal (thanks Joe). Illegals are committing crimes all over the country.

I also understand the working hard to provide sentiment. Fine. I agree. An issue I have is, if you want to come here legally, more power to you and welcome. If you are going to come here just to remain a Mexican, fly the Mexican flag, etc., well, if it was so great, why the f--k did you leave? My forefathers went to war with their previous nation. Hell, I've consistently expressed my view that I think whatever number of people we allow in from Islamic nations who HATE us should see their number decreased and given to Hispanic countries.

BTW, come here and be an American. I don't do the hyphenated ****. You're either an American or your loyalties are divided.

Having ethnic pride and not wanting to be an American are two totally different things. Why celebrate St. Patricks Day, sorry Irish-Descent Americans, showing to much of your Irish pride, Columbus day sorry Italian-descent Americans your spaghetti sauce isn't American enough. Totally crazy, Americans of Mexican-descent illegal or legal are happy that their children learn english and blend with the rest of society, it only bodes well for their future. Maybe Southerners should stop waving the rebel flag, what an insult to real Americans, not to mention an insult to Old Glory.

(04-26-2010 08:44 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(04-26-2010 08:39 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  Less than 100 years ago the same thing was being said about Irish, Germans, Italians, and Poles who lived in their own communities, spoke their native languages, and celebrated their own cultures and heritage.

I have no problem celebrating culture, Mexican or other. That's not the issue at hand. You don't think I like a good Cinco de Mayo? I'm Irish, Scottish, and German in ancestry. I am, by nationality, an American. My loyalties lie with America. Celebrating history and culture isn't the same as placing that over your adopted or native country. I'd think you should know this. There are no Irish flags, German flags, etc. in my home. Never have been, never will be. No, I don't mind seeing one on an Irish, German, or Mexican bar.

That is the point I am making, there are no Irish or German flags in your home, but if we went back the homes of your ancestors a 100+ years ago it would be a completely different story. Do some reading on 19th century post-civil war American history and you'll will find that many of the major political issues of the era dealt with trying to address the issue of our ancestors not assimilating.

Hispanics, given the time will follow the same route.

(04-26-2010 08:49 PM)SlinginSammyGarza Wrote:  Having ethnic pride and not wanting to be an American are two totally different things. Why celebrate St. Patricks Day, sorry Irish-Descent Americans, showing to much of your Irish pride, Columbus day sorry Italian-descent Americans your spaghetti sauce isn't American enough. Totally crazy, Americans of Mexican-descent illegal or legal are happy that their children learn english and blend with the rest of society, it only bodes well for their future. Maybe Southerners should stop waving the rebel flag, what an insult to real Americans, not to mention an insult to Old Glory.

Um, seriously? Man, I'm quite educated. I understand full and well that Columbus never sit foot on the mainland. I also understand 1492 wasn't the first time Europeans stepped foot onto America. Don't know what the point was in making the response.

I'm also not understanding how the f--k my post in any way, shape, or form, is anti-Hispanic, seeing as how I have many friends who are Hispanic and I expressed my opinion that their LEGAL immigrant numbers should be increased.

...but if you come here, be an American. Period.

(04-26-2010 11:20 AM)mistabinks Wrote:  Assuming Arizona is successful in eliminating the crimes committed by Illegals, does Arizona have a working plan ready to roll for all the crime created by Caucasians? Does Arizona even acknowledge that the amount of crime by Caucasians is a much bigger number than crimes committed by Illegals? To be fair, those crimes were "Made in the USA." USA! USA! USA!

You're kidding, right? Do you think there are no white people in Arizona jails? Does a crime by a white guy....or better yet....a black guy justify the existence of an illegal alien?

(04-26-2010 08:39 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  Less than 100 years ago the same thing was being said about Irish, Germans, Italians, and Poles who lived in their own communities, spoke their native languages, and celebrated their own cultures and heritage.

My grandparents came here from Italy. When my dad was born they never taught him to speak Italian - they wanted him to be an American - and he went through his 72 years knowing less than 20 Italian words with pizze and ravioli being two of them. He never called himself an Italian-American or any of that crap. And even though the town he/we grew up in was mostly Italian, it has since morphed to become Jewish and now Asian.

Here in America, especially the border states, Mexico is too close to cut ties like us Italians, Germans, Brits, etc did.

(04-26-2010 08:59 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-26-2010 11:20 AM)mistabinks Wrote:  Assuming Arizona is successful in eliminating the crimes committed by Illegals, does Arizona have a working plan ready to roll for all the crime created by Caucasians? Does Arizona even acknowledge that the amount of crime by Caucasians is a much bigger number than crimes committed by Illegals? To be fair, those crimes were "Made in the USA." USA! USA! USA!

You're kidding, right? Do you think there are no white people in Arizona jails?

I never said anything about Arizona jails or who were in them.

(04-26-2010 08:59 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Does a crime by a white guy....or better yet....a black guy justify the existence of an illegal alien?

Once a person commits a crime he is a criminal and should be dealt with accordindly. Deportation, jail time, I don't care, I have no love for criminals and it doesn't matter what race, color, or nationality they are. By the way, I understand entering the U.S is against the law.

(04-26-2010 08:06 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  The way I see it, these immigrants are coming to this country because they want to work hard and better the lives of their families.

I also want a better life for my family, so when you're not looking I'm going to sneak into your home and live with you. You'll be forced to take care of my health care and when my kid is born he'll be legally entitled to stay in your house forever and you have to pay to feed and educate him. I'll insist that you learn our language and make sure you put all written forms in that same language. If you try to evict me others like me or whose hearts bleed for me will come by and call you a racist Nazi and break your windows. The best part is if I want a job I won't get in trouble, the guy who hired me will.

(04-25-2010 09:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-25-2010 09:06 PM)SlinginSammyGarza Wrote:  Just build a Damn wall, like the great wall of China(only high tech) Imagine all the jobs created. In 20 years after the wall is complete give everyone amnesty. Going forth anyone aressted for anything will need to prove citizenship, if your not a citizen or here on a visa/passport you go to prison for life. If that isn't a detourent, nothing will be. Simple.

That assumes that being in prison here is worse than what they have to look forward to back home. For many of them, it isn't.

I'm a free market capitalist because I believe every person deserves a shot at success, and I believe that free market capitalism (NOT what we have here, haven't had it in years) gives more people a better shot than any other system.

I really struggle with the fact that these people don't have that opportunity back home. If I were facing what they face, I'll guarantee you that I'd be doing the same thing that they are. So, at the end of the day, I really have difficulty coming down too hard on them.

If an American consumer is looking for a source of "cheap" consumer goods and products, they shouldn't have to look to China.

Anything made in China and purchased in bulk by US consumers can be made for the same (or less) cost in ....

MEXICO

Instead of going into Walmart and 90% of the products sold there say "Made in China"... why not "encourage" Walmart to purchase these same goods from Mexican suppliers?

Its a Win-Win. Mexican Jobs for Mexican Nationals who otherwise would be making a "run for the US border".. a stronger Mexican domestic economy.

You want to know something... most General Electric Refrigerators are manufactured in Mexico, even the $3K cabinet depth 23 cubic foot model my sister just bought.

(04-26-2010 09:06 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-26-2010 08:39 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  Less than 100 years ago the same thing was being said about Irish, Germans, Italians, and Poles who lived in their own communities, spoke their native languages, and celebrated their own cultures and heritage.

My grandparents came here from Italy. When my dad was born they never taught him to speak Italian - they wanted him to be an American - and he went through his 72 years knowing less than 20 Italian words with pizze and ravioli being two of them. He never called himself an Italian-American or any of that crap. And even though the town he/we grew up in was mostly Italian, it has since morphed to become Jewish and now Asian.

Here in America, especially the border states, Mexico is too close to cut ties like us Italians, Germans, Brits, etc did.

That is a cool story, but I think your family is very much in the minority. My great grandparents were 2nd generation Italians that could only speak a few phrases of English and lived in an all Italian neighborhood. They also sent money back to support family in Italy(I have to documentation to prove it) and some of their siblings even eventually moved back to Italy(I researched them and found their great grand children/my distant cousins living in L'Aquila),

The idea that 19th and early 20th century immigrants got off the boat and became American over night is a myth. Most never assimilated at all until after World War 2 when the G.I. bill and interstate highway system moved people out of their ethnic neighborhoods and into the suburbs.

Also your analogy of moving yourself into my house is a terrible example. This country is not yours, mine, or anyone else's private property, a house is.

WMD, I'm not expert but while China seems to be quite harsh on corporate corruption, Mexico embraces it and who knows what they'll try to bleed out of Amerian businesses. I would imagine there's a good reason for making stuff in China and not Mexico.

(04-26-2010 09:36 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  WMD, I'm not expert but while China seems to be quite harsh on corporate corruption, Mexico embraces it and who knows what they'll try to bleed out of Amerian businesses.

If you are not an expert how do you know Mexico embraces corporate corruption? Or that their goal is to bleed out American businesses.

(04-26-2010 09:36 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  I would imagine there's a good reason for making stuff in China and not Mexico.

Maybe. Maybe not. Since we are not experts.

(04-26-2010 09:35 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  That is a cool story, but I think your family is very much in the minority. My great grandparents were 2nd generation Italians that could only speak a few phrases of English and lived in an all Italian neighborhood. They also sent money back to support family in Italy(I have to documentation to prove it) and some of their siblings even eventually moved back to Italy(I researched them and found their great grand children/my distant cousins living in L'Aquila),

The idea that 19th and early 20th century immigrants got off the boat and became American over night is a myth. Most never assimilated at all until after World War 2 when the G.I. bill and interstate highway system moved people out of their ethnic neighborhoods and into the suburbs.

I come from Fort Lee, NJ which is right across the Hudson River from Manhattan. It was pretty much all Italian until it became too expensive due to its proximity to NYC and that's when the lower middle and middle class Italians were pushed farther away from the City. Where did you gro up?

(04-26-2010 09:35 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  Also your analogy of moving yourself into my house is a terrible example. This country is not yours, mine, or anyone else's private property, a house is.

People own homes. We The People own the country.

(04-26-2010 09:42 PM)mistabinks Wrote:  

(04-26-2010 09:36 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  WMD, I'm not expert but while China seems to be quite harsh on corporate corruption, Mexico embraces it and who knows what they'll try to bleed out of Amerian businesses.

If you are not an expert how do you know Mexico embraces corporate corruption? Or that their goal is to bleed out American businesses.

Here in So Cal we get a lot of news about what's going on in Mexico. While the political and military corruption seems to get noticed nationally, what goes on in the corp world doesn't seem to grab as much attention. When the next story comes around I'll post a link.

(04-26-2010 09:36 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  WMD, I'm not expert but while China seems to be quite harsh on corporate corruption, Mexico embraces it and who knows what they'll try to bleed out of Amerian businesses. I would imagine there's a good reason for making stuff in China and not Mexico.

True, the typical "Chinese Products Liability Trial" ends up, as in the case of the poisoned dog food, the poisoned baby formula, the defective tires, and the toys contaminated with lead, ...with the factory manager and his staff being shot in the head or sent to Labor Camps after a fairly quick "Trial"...

You know the late Texas Plaintiff's personal injury attorney John O'Quinn is probably laughing about that, wherever he is.

(04-26-2010 09:45 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Here in So Cal we get a lot of news about what's going on in Mexico. While the political and military corruption seems to get noticed nationally, what goes on in the corp world doesn't seem to grab as much attention. When the next story comes around I'll post a link.

I have no doubt there is corruption in Mexico. Why would I as there is corruption in the U.S. I question whether the Mexican government embraces corporate corruption as you stated in your post.

(04-26-2010 08:06 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  This is one of the only issue that I cannot currently support the Republican party on. The way I see it, these immigrants are coming to this country because they want to work hard and better the lives of their families. They also tend to be very conservative in social values(just look at prop 8 in California). In my book that already makes them more American than 90% of the liberals in this country.

Historically, the Republican party was the party of nativism and anti-Catholic sentiments. Unfortunately an element of that still remains, particularly in the South where there are few Catholics outside of a few major cities. With American Protestantism in decline and the huge LEGAL increase in Hispanic voters(not even counting the illegals), the Republican party is going to need the Catholic and Hispanic vote in future elections.

It also wouldn't be that big of a change in direction, the Republican Party already is the party of choice for Cubans in Florida and has been since Castro came to power(just look at Marco Rubio). Now the GOP just need to find a way to appeal to other Hispanics groups.

My suggestion is to secure the border, amnesty and citizenship for those that already live here(that are not felons), and getting rid of or greatly expanding our immigration quotas so that we can do background checks and let in those that are coming here to work and keeping out those that have a criminal past.

*edit: I also think we should try to put our lady of Guadeloupe on the $10 bill(sorry Alexander Hamilton) =p

Except your rewarding law breaking and inviting more workers in that we don't need. It's insane when Americans can't find work to allow criminals to take what work there is. And drive down the living standards of those who end up having to compete with the criminals. And it's impossible to compete with someone who may have 3, 4 or more others sharing expenses.

And the Cubans are self sufficient. They aren't lined up for food stamps, welfare, rent subsidies, free healthcare. The welfare state. The Democrats are willing to buy other Hispanic groups... and they're willing to be bought. They are conservative but they are choosing to sell there votes to the Dems. It's a bad decision that can do nothing but keep them down. Voting Democratic has been disastrous for the Black community, and it will be the same for the Hispanic community.

(04-26-2010 10:06 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Except your rewarding law breaking and inviting more workers in that we don't need. It's insane when Americans can't find work to allow criminals to take what work there is. And drive down the living standards of those who end up having to compete with the criminals. And it's impossible to compete with someone who may have 3, 4 or more others sharing expenses.

And the Cubans are self sufficient. They aren't lined up for food stamps, welfare, rent subsidies, free healthcare. The welfare state. The Democrats are willing to buy other Hispanic groups... and they're willing to be bought. They are conservative but they are choosing to sell there votes to the Dems. It's a bad decision that can do nothing but keep them down. Voting Democratic has been disastrous for the Black community, and it will be the same for the Hispanic community.

Citizenship and all of the God-given rights and privileges it entails is now a reward? So tell me, what did you or I do to earn this reward? Oh ya, we were born on this side of a line drawn on a map by some people a 100+ years ago versus being born on the other side of it. Wow that is quite the accomplishment, we should both pat ourselves on the back for that one.

I also don't think you have a very good understanding of economics, in fact you sound a little bit like Democrat. The size of the economy and number of jobs available is not a stagnant number, it grows and shrinks based on the number of consumers. Immigrants not only work jobs but also become new consumers, thus growing the economy and creating more jobs. Do you also oppose free trade?

As for your 2nd paragraph, the Democrats are willing to buy everyone and their vote, all that is required is to stop working/ stop having ambition and allow the state to provide for you. I live in a different part of the country, but based on my own experiences this does not describe the Hispanic immigrant community at all. I find they are willing to work any and every job they can find. They are not selling themselves to the Democratic Party, rather they are being sold out by the Republicans.

When your party platform is that we are going to arrest anyone of Hispanic origin that doesn't carry their citizenship papers on them at all times, then there is really no choice which party to vote for. Hell it was only 6 short years ago in 2004 that George Bush stunned everyone by winning 45% of the Hispanic vote nationwide. It looked as though the Hispanic vote was swing towards the Republican party along with other Catholics, but that was before the Nativist element of the Republican party came out of the wood works in 2005. Since then Republicans has had 2 crushing electoral defeats. The Republican party needs to get its act together on this issue or will continue to struggle at the polls. The Hispanic community is a perfect fit for the Republican party, they are hard working and socially conservative. All the Republican party has to do is reach out to them and the result will be landslide victories at the polls.

(04-26-2010 11:05 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  

(04-26-2010 10:06 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Except your rewarding law breaking and inviting more workers in that we don't need. It's insane when Americans can't find work to allow criminals to take what work there is. And drive down the living standards of those who end up having to compete with the criminals. And it's impossible to compete with someone who may have 3, 4 or more others sharing expenses.

And the Cubans are self sufficient. They aren't lined up for food stamps, welfare, rent subsidies, free healthcare. The welfare state. The Democrats are willing to buy other Hispanic groups... and they're willing to be bought. They are conservative but they are choosing to sell there votes to the Dems. It's a bad decision that can do nothing but keep them down. Voting Democratic has been disastrous for the Black community, and it will be the same for the Hispanic community.

Citizenship and all of the God-given rights and privileges it entails is now a reward? So tell me, what did you or I do to earn this reward? Oh ya, we were born on this side of a line drawn on a map by some people a 100+ years ago versus being born on the other side of it. Wow that is quite the accomplishment, we should both pat ourselves on the back for that one.

You said amnesty and citizenship for all the lawbreakers already here. Sorry, that is rewarding them at the expense of others who are here legally waiting for those privileges that you deem to just hand out like candy.

I also don't think you have a very good understanding of economics, in fact you sound a little bit like Democrat. The size of the economy and number of jobs available is not a stagnant number, it grows and shrinks based on the number of consumers. Immigrants not only work jobs but also become new consumers, thus growing the economy and creating more jobs. Do you also oppose free trade?

Don't know where any of this is from. I understand economics just fine. I understand 10% unemployment. I understand that number rising and falling. I understand inviting workers to come here when workers are needed and stopping them when not.

As for your 2nd paragraph, the Democrats are willing to buy everyone and their vote, all that is required is to stop working/ stop having ambition and allow the state to provide for you. I live in a different part of the country, but based on my own experiences this does not describe the Hispanic immigrant community at all. I find they are willing to work any and every job they can find. They are not selling themselves to the Democratic Party, rather they are being sold out by the Republicans.

I said nothing about not working. Many people have jobs and still take advantage of all the social programs available. So you live in an area where there are no illegals in the emergency rooms or shopping with food stamps. Not getting HUD assistance. Excuse me if I'm skeptical. If you chose to close your eyes to reality, fine. My eyes are open. Many Americans take advantage also. That doesn't excuse you and me having to pay for even more people who shouldn't even be here.

When your party platform is that we are going to arrest anyone of Hispanic origin that doesn't carry their citizenship papers on them at all times, then there is really no choice which party to vote for. Hell it was only 6 short years ago in 2004 that George Bush stunned everyone by winning 45% of the Hispanic vote nationwide. It looked as though the Hispanic vote was swing towards the Republican party along with other Catholics, but that was before the Nativist element of the Republican party came out of the wood works in 2005. Since then Republicans has had 2 crushing electoral defeats. The Republican party needs to get its act together on this issue or will continue to struggle at the polls. The Hispanic community is a perfect fit for the Republican party, they are hard working and socially conservative. All the Republican party has to do is reach out to them and the result will be landslide victories at the polls.

I've agreed Hispanics are Conservative. They should be voting Conservative. They should vote there values. Or they can sell out all they believe in for the Democrats promises of free stuff. And Hispanic citizens should be just as pissed about illegal immigration as other citizens. Republicans shouldn't be trying to top the opposition. They should stand or fall on what they believe in. I get so tired of hearing they have to out democrat the Democrats to get votes. The problems the Republicans continue to have is from competing with the Dems. They should be offering something completely different. And 70% of the public is for the Arizona bill. That's a lot of Democrats too, so let's not pretend like this is a good party/bad party situation. I don't want to see Hispanics choose to go down that path that will enslave them to the Democrat party. And the Republicans shouldn't pander to them either. The future is their's to make. The American dream or generation after generation dependent on the government.