Rebel
Unregistered
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
How much money does this clown think we fuken make?
|
|
02-01-2010 05:36 PM |
|
Fo Shizzle
Pragmatic Classical Liberal
Posts: 42,023
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 1206
I Root For: ECU PIRATES
Location: North Carolina
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 04:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: The problem is that even after they spend all this money what they will have is crap systems.
If we had the equivalent of a Shinkansen or TGF or Eurostar, Americans would ride it. I would think that for business travel in the northeast corridor, there would be a high demand.
The reason nobody uses the "high speed trains" running in that corridor today is because they are crap. To extrapolate that into a conclusion that people wouldn't ride good trains is a mistake.
The really good high-speed trains are almost as far removed from what we call "high speed trains" as space travel is from hitchhiking.
I see your point..but..I really think Americans are CAR people and just will never really take to riding the rails. We just like the freedom of being able to travel without constrictions. Having to be constrained by schedules and having to find other modes of transportation AFTER we have reached a destination is just too much for most of us to deal with...I know I have NO intention of using such a system.
|
|
02-01-2010 06:00 PM |
|
Owl 69/70/75
Just an old rugby coach
Posts: 80,805
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 06:00 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: (02-01-2010 04:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: The problem is that even after they spend all this money what they will have is crap systems.
If we had the equivalent of a Shinkansen or TGV or Eurostar, Americans would ride it. I would think that for business travel in the northeast corridor, there would be a high demand.
The reason nobody uses the "high speed trains" running in that corridor today is because they are crap. To extrapolate that into a conclusion that people wouldn't ride good trains is a mistake.
The really good high-speed trains are almost as far removed from what we call "high speed trains" as space travel is from hitchhiking.
I see your point..but..I really think Americans are CAR people and just will never really take to riding the rails. We just like the freedom of being able to travel without constrictions. Having to be constrained by schedules and having to find other modes of transportation AFTER we have reached a destination is just too much for most of us to deal with...I know I have NO intention of using such a system.
I felt the same way until I used them a few times. I'll take the train in Europe rather than drive or fly, and that's for many trips where I'd drive or fly the equivalent trip here.
London-Brussels, London-Paris, I'm taking the train. Anywhere in Japan, I'm taking the train. During the World Cup a few years ago, it was great. You could stay in Paris, and wherever in France there was a game that day, hop on the TGV in the morning, go to the game, back on the TGV that night, party on the Champs.
It would be an adjustment for many Americans to be sure, and not all would be willing to make it. But enough would for it to have a significant impact.
|
|
02-01-2010 06:20 PM |
|
flyingswoosh
Hall of Famer
Posts: 15,863
Joined: Jul 2003
Reputation: 69
I Root For:
Location:
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
i'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Gas factor. One reason they have to ride the rails in Europe is because of how much it costs them to drive. Gas is like 5.50/gallon over there. It's insane
|
|
02-01-2010 06:22 PM |
|
Machiavelli
Back to Reality. Oh there goes Gravity
Posts: 25,357
Joined: Apr 2006
I Root For: BGSU
Location:
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
The problem with Amtrak is freight bumps it. The train could be 4-8 hrs. off time. If we had trains on time all the time you would see a difference in people using it.
|
|
02-01-2010 06:25 PM |
|
Owl 69/70/75
Just an old rugby coach
Posts: 80,805
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 06:25 PM)Machiavelli Wrote: The problem with Amtrak is freight bumps it. The train could be 4-8 hrs. off time. If we had trains on time all the time you would see a difference in people using it.
Good point. When you build real high-speed passenger rail, you put it on dedicated tracks. The gauge is different, so a freight train can't even run on a TGV or Shinkansen or Eurostar track. We have half-@$$ed passenger rail.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2010 06:32 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
|
|
02-01-2010 06:31 PM |
|
Rebel
Unregistered
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 06:22 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote: i'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Gas factor. One reason they have to ride the rails in Europe is because of how much it costs them to drive. Gas is like 5.50/gallon over there. It's insane
It's between 2-3 pounds a litre in England.
My solution is to put all liberals in golf carts, leave us conservatives alone, and build more interstates.
|
|
02-01-2010 07:55 PM |
|
RaiderATO
Puddin' Stick
Posts: 6,093
Joined: May 2005
Reputation: 139
I Root For: MiddleTennessee
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
You can't compare a European national transit systems to a US system. Its not even the same as US State systems as we're all one country with fewer restrictions to interstate (vs international) travel.
Europe population density is different that in the US. The closest thing we have is in New England. It'd be most feasible there.
France has a similar population density as New England states. You don't find that same density until California and Florida, and nearby states don't have near the same density.
|
|
02-01-2010 08:39 PM |
|
Owl 69/70/75
Just an old rugby coach
Posts: 80,805
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
Our gasoline needs to be about $4-5/gallon or more. There are a lot of external costs (environment, wars in Mideast) that we are incurring and not capturing in the price of gasoline. Tax it up to there, and offset the majority of it (80% or so) with tax cuts elsewhere. So, if you cut your gasoline use, you come out money ahead at the end of the day. Use the incremental revenue to fund things like these rail systems. You know, the Paris Hilton energy plan.
No need to fund alternatives development in that scenario. Once gasoline hits that price, the market will make alternatives happen in about two shakes of a lamb's tail.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2010 09:41 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
|
|
02-01-2010 08:49 PM |
|
flyingswoosh
Hall of Famer
Posts: 15,863
Joined: Jul 2003
Reputation: 69
I Root For:
Location:
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 07:55 PM)Rebel Wrote: (02-01-2010 06:22 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote: i'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Gas factor. One reason they have to ride the rails in Europe is because of how much it costs them to drive. Gas is like 5.50/gallon over there. It's insane
It's between 2-3 pounds a litre in England.
My solution is to put all liberals in golf carts, leave us conservatives alone, and build more interstates.
it was less when i was there, i think. anyway, there's 3.7 litres in a gallon which means gas is more that i said.
|
|
02-01-2010 09:35 PM |
|
Rebel
Unregistered
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 08:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Our gasoline needs to be about $4-5/gallon or more. There are a lot of external costs (environment, wars in Mideast) that we are incurring and not capturing in the price of gasoline. Tax it up to there, and offset the majority of it (80% or so) with tax cuts elsewhere. So, if you cut your gasoline use, you come out money ahead at the end of the day. Use the incremental revenue to fund things like these rail systems. You know, the Paris Hilton energy plan.
No need to fund alternatives development in that scenario. Once gasoline hits that price, the market will make alternatives happen in about two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Yeah, that'll boost the economy for sure!
Come on, Owl.
|
|
02-01-2010 10:09 PM |
|
Owl 69/70/75
Just an old rugby coach
Posts: 80,805
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 10:09 PM)Rebel Wrote: (02-01-2010 08:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Our gasoline needs to be about $4-5/gallon or more. There are a lot of external costs (environment, wars in Mideast) that we are incurring and not capturing in the price of gasoline. Tax it up to there, and offset the majority of it (80% or so) with tax cuts elsewhere. So, if you cut your gasoline use, you come out money ahead at the end of the day. Use the incremental revenue to fund things like these rail systems. You know, the Paris Hilton energy plan.
No need to fund alternatives development in that scenario. Once gasoline hits that price, the market will make alternatives happen in about two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Yeah, that'll boost the economy for sure!
Come on, Owl.
Actually, it will, over the long run. And to the extent you rebate the tax elsewhere, it will have minimal short-run negative impact. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what you have to do, and this really is one of those times.
Hey, I'm from an oil-producing state, and even lots of people I know in the industry are onboard with this.
|
|
02-01-2010 10:19 PM |
|
Rebel
Unregistered
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
How many people have to lose their jobs for your little project, Owl? One week without pay, with no substantial savings, can make you dead or eating government cheese. Is that the price you're willing to pay?
|
|
02-01-2010 10:21 PM |
|
Owl 69/70/75
Just an old rugby coach
Posts: 80,805
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 10:21 PM)Rebel Wrote: How many people have to lose their jobs for your little project, Owl? One week without pay, with no substantial savings, can make you dead or eating government cheese. Is that the price you're willing to pay?
Why would people lose jobs? Serious question.
|
|
02-01-2010 10:23 PM |
|
smn1256
I miss Tripster
Posts: 28,878
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation: 337
I Root For: Lower taxes
Location: North Mexico
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
Most of those projects will never happen - If you want to lay tracks outside the cities the environmentalists will sue you and if you try to take property by eminent domain the land owners will sue you.
|
|
02-01-2010 10:25 PM |
|
Rebel
Unregistered
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 10:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (02-01-2010 10:21 PM)Rebel Wrote: How many people have to lose their jobs for your little project, Owl? One week without pay, with no substantial savings, can make you dead or eating government cheese. Is that the price you're willing to pay?
Why would people lose jobs? Serious question.
Is it a serious question? Or you just want my reasoning? You're a very well educated man. You know damn well the impact oil prices have on this economy so I won't devolve into a discussion about the impact with someone that clearly understands the dynamics of an economy greatly impacted by oil.
|
|
02-01-2010 10:35 PM |
|
Owl 69/70/75
Just an old rugby coach
Posts: 80,805
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 10:35 PM)Rebel Wrote: (02-01-2010 10:23 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (02-01-2010 10:21 PM)Rebel Wrote: How many people have to lose their jobs for your little project, Owl? One week without pay, with no substantial savings, can make you dead or eating government cheese. Is that the price you're willing to pay?
Why would people lose jobs? Serious question.
Is it a serious question? Or you just want my reasoning? You're a very well educated man. You know damn well the impact oil prices have on this economy so I won't devolve into a discussion about the impact with someone that clearly understands the dynamics of an economy greatly impacted by oil.
But that's my point, the people who do understand it better than anyone else realize this is the way we have to go.
One of the more knowledgeable industry insiders I know was asked to testify before your own Georgia legislature recently. He gave his prepared speech and was then asked if he could give them a short version. He replied, "Paris Hilton is right."
We really do need to do this. If we offset it to make it revenue neutral, or nearly so, it really won't have much of a negative impact.
If we don't do it, one day before long we're going to fall off the cliff. That WILL have a huge negative impact on the economy.
|
|
02-01-2010 10:58 PM |
|
Rebel
Unregistered
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
Ok, you have a degree in law. I have a degree in business. I'm telling you what it WILL do, and that is kill the economy. Less jobs, promotions, and raises are always a side-effect of policies like that. Will it recover? Well, only if the rest of the market prevails and increases as well. ....but it will take a long time. Increases like that don't happen overnight. We didn't go from .5 cent cokes to 1.20 cokes overnight. It took 40 years. You willing to put people out of work for 40 years? If not, what's going to take up the slack when companies that rely on petrol, which there are thousands, have to start laying off?
I don't get this about your "Libertarianism".
|
|
02-01-2010 11:16 PM |
|
Owl 69/70/75
Just an old rugby coach
Posts: 80,805
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3211
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 11:16 PM)Rebel Wrote: Ok, you have a degree in law. I have a degree in business. I'm telling you what it WILL do, and that is kill the economy. Less jobs, promotions, and raises are always a side-effect of policies like that. Will it recover? Well, only if the rest of the market prevails and increases as well. ....but it will take a long time. Increases like that don't happen overnight. We didn't go from .5 cent cokes to 1.20 cokes overnight. It took 40 years. You willing to put people out of work for 40 years? If not, what's going to take up the slack when companies that rely on petrol, which there are thousands, have to start laying off?
I don't get this about your "Libertarianism".
Let's take your coke example. Let's say we're still selling coke for a nickel but it costs a dollar to make it. Is it really good for the economy to keep selling it for a nickel, or should we let the cost go up to the $1.00+?
There are arguments both ways, but keeping it at a nickel will certainly lead to misallocated resources which will harm the economy in the long run. If you always look for short term gratification, then you'll keep the price at a nickel, but in the end that will screw you. That's where we are with oil. We keep the price artificially low with tax breaks, and that leaves us extremely vulnerable to OPEC.
|
|
02-01-2010 11:31 PM |
|
Rebel
Unregistered
|
RE: High-Speed Rail Grants Announced
(02-01-2010 11:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: (02-01-2010 11:16 PM)Rebel Wrote: Ok, you have a degree in law. I have a degree in business. I'm telling you what it WILL do, and that is kill the economy. Less jobs, promotions, and raises are always a side-effect of policies like that. Will it recover? Well, only if the rest of the market prevails and increases as well. ....but it will take a long time. Increases like that don't happen overnight. We didn't go from .5 cent cokes to 1.20 cokes overnight. It took 40 years. You willing to put people out of work for 40 years? If not, what's going to take up the slack when companies that rely on petrol, which there are thousands, have to start laying off?
I don't get this about your "Libertarianism".
Let's take your coke example. Let's say we're still selling coke for a nickel but it costs a dollar to make it. Is it really good for the economy to keep selling it for a nickel, or should we let the cost go up to the $1.00+?
There are arguments both ways, but keeping it at a nickel will certainly lead to misallocated resources which will harm the economy in the long run. If you always look for short term gratification, then you'll keep the price at a nickel, but in the end that will screw you. That's where we are with oil. We keep the price artificially low with tax breaks, and that leaves us extremely vulnerable to OPEC.
Doesn't cost 7+ dollars to make a gallon of gas, Owl, using your analogy.
|
|
02-01-2010 11:34 PM |
|