smn1256 Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:Well I think your opinion is not in the minority. This type of sentiment has been ongoing for decades. You explain well.. just why the constitution 'we are supposed to follow" is a dead and useless document to most Americans.

It's the new "unwritten" constitution that is now our guidance...One that expounds...military interventionism, growth of federalism, growth of the police state, reduction of separation of powers, increasing non-secularism into government, increased nationalism and pro socialist ideals.

Might makes right....damn....Well I guess Slavery was OK because we had the "might to make it right"? When are we going to start to understand that just because we have the power to do something does not make it morally justifiable and to do so most often creates the most purest forms of evil?..slavery..genocide..holocaust..ect

Slavery was wrong because it took away freedom and forced people to do what the people with the power and guns wanted them to do. Isn't that what the pirates are doing to the ships, crew, owners of the ships and cargo, etc????

Slavery is the institutional system of forced labor by those with "might". Piracy is generally involves property crimes....although I would not argue that slavery is also philosophically a property crime. I believe that we "own ourselves" and to use force to make me do anything against my will is a property crime.

We are splitting hairs...but.. surely we both agree that superior power does not equate to superior morality.

The whole conversation here is about how to deal with Somalian Pirates. Obviously..The US has the power to stop this problem within seconds. We certainly have the "Might".

Using the "Might makes Right" axiom...Nuclear destruction of Somalia is now morally justified.

I know you don't advocate the use of nuclear weapons...but..If we really abide by that axiom isn't there a danger that this could happen anytime there is a conflict? I think we both can agree that this situation does not call for this type of reaction and measured Naval force and tactics are probably all that is necessary in this instance.

Tripster Wrote:.
OK ... False SOS that Maritime Law pretty much Requires a response too, if you are in the area.

How do you morally get around that one ???

If it is a Real SOS and you pass it by because it is close to one of these 'Pirate Lanes', you have to sleep knowing you let innocent people die and if you answer an SOS from these MAGGOTS and some of your Crew Die by the Vermin's hand, then how do you sleep ??

It is Lose Lose in that part of the world.

No it isn't...

P-3''s are loaded with sensors and can locate the source of anything transmitting on GMDSS...

So can any other Maritime Recon aircraft. P-3's and recon aircraft can also drop rescue rafts, supplies, etc. if need be.

All I'm saying is if "X" is blowing a SOS at certain coordinates, ...and if it looks "funny" because of location, the P-3 responds, and if the P-3 can't find anything.. why should a target set itself up?

I45owl Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:

Quote:It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once. -- Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson did not write those words. Virtually everything that Jefferson did write is available here: http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/

ok, if you want to be technical about it....he along with John Adams reported those words to the Contiential Congress after meeting with the Ambassador to Tripoli, who expressed those views.

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WMD, that one is easy to get around .... just SOS a Scow and leave her to float with a few dead bodies hanging off her for show. I mean these guys surely have a few hundred rotting murdered corpses hanging around just waiting to be desecrated this way.

And this would attract attention away from the Real Bad Guys who were active only a short distance away.

Still doesn't leave out the Human Equation and the Human Response .... that inherent thing we have inside, if we are the Good Guys, that makes us go kill our selves to save the "other guys".

And All you "Slavery" Posters ..... we would not even have Barrack Hussein Obama as a United States Citizen if were not for good old King George of Great Britain.

The "Original 13 Colonies" listed, in their '27 Item Decree letting King George know why they intended to Break Away from the Monarchy", that his, "King George's decision to Disallow Their Say In Slavery and Force the Colonies to continue the Practice, was one of the main articles on the List".

See the Original 13 Colonies had Abolished Slavery before they even broke away from Great Britain, but old King Georgey Boy was lining his fat pockets with all the loot from the lucrative Trade and Sale of Kidnapped Indigenous Persons and the money was just too darn good and King George Vetoed the Colonies vote to Shut Down Slavery.

Now were the Colonies actions in abolishing Slavery fully altruistic considering the circumstances .... we will never know since old King George was too greedy to let the Colonies Make and Pass Law on this issue ....

Put it this way .... regardless - - if King George just would have left the Law Making on this matter up to the Colonies, ALL Slavery in the United States would have been over before it really ever took hold and we would not be having to listen to the Very Europeans scream in our face that we Were Slave Mongers and were the Creationist for Uber Wide Spread Slavery ..... they have King George of Great Britain to thank for that.

Just some info to toss out there.
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Fo Shizzle Wrote:When are we going to start to understand that just because we have the power to do something does not make it morally justifiable and to do so most often creates the most purest forms of evil?..slavery..genocide..holocaust..ect

Hey Fo, did you forget that the people we're up against are stealing property and kidnapping innocent people?

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I have been passing up the Slavery Parts of Post because, too me, it is a moot point. (I mean regarding the United States and Slavery)

What I mean is simply that, if King George had not forced the 13 Colonies to Continue Slavery, the United States would have Abolished it and DID Abolish it TOTALLY and COMPLETELY, but King Georgey Vetoed that krap super quick.

AND, it was Practice in the Grand Days of Uber Piracy upon the 7 Seas, to TAKE the persons on the Ship/Boat you just Stole and Force them into Slave Labor (the ones you didn't murder that is).

I think we should just go along the Inner Border of Somalia and drill huge holes in the ground at just the Correct Depth and Explode them all at the Same Time, thereby dropping the Shelf of Somalia into the FREGGIN OCEAN.

That way, there is no longer a Somalia to argue over .... SEE !!!!! I have good ideas some times

We'll get Bruce Willis to Drill It For Us !!!!!!
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smn1256 Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:When are we going to start to understand that just because we have the power to do something does not make it morally justifiable and to do so most often creates the most purest forms of evil?..slavery..genocide..holocaust..ect

Hey Fo, did you forget that the people we're up against are stealing property and kidnapping innocent people?

In no way do I advocate that the actions of anyone that uses force upon another should be ignored...but.. Should not the punishment fit the crime?

What I see proposed here by a few posters is akin to genocide. Why don't we just go into our prison system and find every thief, and kidnapper and take them out into the street and execute them?

Hey...and while we are at it...If a gang member in LA shoots someone in a drive by...Lets just exterminate the whole damn area...It would be sure way to do away with the gang problem!!

The idea that the solution to this problem is to "Level" Somalia is totally immoral and pure nonsense.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

smn1256 Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:When are we going to start to understand that just because we have the power to do something does not make it morally justifiable and to do so most often creates the most purest forms of evil?..slavery..genocide..holocaust..ect

Hey Fo, did you forget that the people we're up against are stealing property and kidnapping innocent people?

In no way do I advocate that the actions of anyone that uses force upon another should be ignored...but.. Should not the punishment fit the crime?

What I see proposed here by a few posters is akin to genocide.

Under the traditional "Law of the Sea".... Pirates were not entitled to surrender. It was "No Quarter for Pirates"

Today you may have some laws that treat them different.. but they are still "illegal combatants" and thus not entitled to "prisioner of war" status for example.

Hell, put them in Gitmo with AQ. They can read the Koran together.

WMD Owl Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

smn1256 Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:When are we going to start to understand that just because we have the power to do something does not make it morally justifiable and to do so most often creates the most purest forms of evil?..slavery..genocide..holocaust..ect

Hey Fo, did you forget that the people we're up against are stealing property and kidnapping innocent people?

In no way do I advocate that the actions of anyone that uses force upon another should be ignored...but.. Should not the punishment fit the crime?

What I see proposed here by a few posters is akin to genocide.

Under the traditional "Law of the Sea".... Pirates were not entitled to surrender. It was "No Quarter for Pirates"

Today you may have some laws that treat them different.. but they are still "illegal combatants" and thus not entitled to "prisioner of war" status for example.

Hell, put them in Gitmo with AQ. They can read the Koran together.

I have no problem with blasting the hell out these jokers when they try to take a vessel. Self defense is fine. What some of the posters here are advocating is the destruction of an country to eliminate the pirates....that's silly.

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'Fo' - - don't think that I would not give my last dollar to a Somali Child so she/he could eat and I would starve.

If you think I look at those Starving Beautiful Little Children and my heart does not break wide open, then I am sorry I have painted such a bad picture of my self.

The country is in total ruin and chaos, there is no Law Enforcement or Government to even speak of or too that would offer Diplomacy in this matter.

The place is the "New Iraq" and is Baghdad all over again ... there are just too many Saddam's there who are murdering for their Piece of the Pie for a Single Saddam to finally seize total Power and Control.

The ONLY WAY to deal with Somalia is to treat it as a Colonized Prison that is Rioting on Prison Grounds - - I am sorry for the Little Babies over there, that are dying at rates of 1 every several seconds, but they are starving because of he Feudal War Lords that steal all the Food and Money to keep them selves fat and happy. They let their Children Starve to death 'Fo' - - they don't even have the decency to shoot them and take their pain away ... one AK 7.62mm Round is Worth More to these Bastards than ending a Sweet Babies Suffering - -

They are GOING TO DIE no matter what 'Fo' .... either quicken it so they DO NOT SUFFER, or GO IN and TAKE the COUNTRY OVER and Cause it to become a Welfare State that STILL WON'T WORK .... Welfare hasn't worked Inside the United States, so why attempt it in Somalia ??? We have ALREADY TRIED IT under Bill Clinton and in Return, we got a Movie titled "Black Hawk Down" - - - and yes I know GW Bush #1 got us in there First .... But Clinton had the Stage and he Dropped the Ball big time.

These Marauding Murderers need to DIE, but we tried to HELP them and what did we get .... "Mohammed Farrah Aidid" who Bill Clinton put a Price on his Head adding up to Millions of Dollars .... CNN, NBC, CBS all could find Mohammed Farrah Aidid any time they wanted to interview him ... Bill Clinton has yet to lay a hand on Mohammed Farrah Aidid.

And Mr. Mohammed Farrah Aidid has raped and murdered hundreds of thousands by literally doing the deed to them or letting them starve to death in the streets.

Me, wanting Genocide on a bunch of Murdering Fools who are already committing Genocide is pretty funny if it were not so horrible and tragic for the Children.

RobertN says I write too much, so I will cut it here. And yes, I would rather see these Children Die a "Quick Death" than to lie in their own Feces as they Slowly Starve to Death .... but then I am strange that way.

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Tripster Wrote:.
'Fo' - - don't think that I would not give my last dollar to a Somali Child so she/he could eat and I would starve.

If you think I look at those Starving Beautiful Little Children and my heart does not break wide open, then I am sorry I have painted such a bad picture of my self.

The country is in total ruin and chaos, there is no Law Enforcement or Government to even speak of or too that would offer Diplomacy in this matter.

The place is the "New Iraq" and is Baghdad all over again ... there are just too many Saddam's there who are murdering for their Piece of the Pie for a Single Saddam to finally seize total Power and Control.

The ONLY WAY to deal with Somalia is to treat it as a Colonized Prison that is Rioting on Prison Grounds - - I am sorry for the Little Babies over there, that are dying at rates of 1 every several seconds, but they are starving because of he Feudal War Lords that steal all the Food and Money to keep them selves fat and happy. They let their Children Starve to death 'Fo' - - they don't even have the decency to shoot them and take their pain away ... one AK 7.62mm Round is Worth More to these Bastards than ending a Sweet Babies Suffering - -

I guess that sounds pretty cruel, and if it does, may I suggest a trip to Darfur Africa and sit, as long as it takes, and watch a Child Starve to Death - - you will never want to see that happen again and you will take up Arms and Remove the Suffering from these children by your own hand and a single bullet - - it is all you can do since you can't feed them all. They are GOING TO DIE no matter what 'Fo' .... either quicken it so they DO NOT SUFFER, or GO IN and TAKE the COUNTRY OVER and Cause it to become a Welfare State that STILL WON'T WORK .... Welfare hasn't worked Inside the United States, so why attempt it in Somalia ??? We have ALREADY TRIED IT under Bill Clinton and in Return, we got a Movie titled "Black Hawk Down" - - - and yes I know GW Bush #1 got us in there First .... But Clinton had the Stage and he Dropped the Ball big time.

Have you ever seen a Real Life Starving Human Being 'Fo' .... I have and it is an ugly and stinking thing to witness.

These Marauding Murderers need to DIE, but we tried to HELP them and what did we get .... "Mohammed Farrah Aidid" who Bill Clinton put a Price on his Head adding up to Millions of Dollars .... CNN, NBC, CBS all could find Mohammed Farrah Aidid any time they wanted to interview him ... Bill Clinton has yet to lay a hand on Mohammed Farrah Aidid.

And Mr. Mohammed Farrah Aidid has raped and murdered hundreds of thousands by literally doing the deed to them or letting them starve to death in the streets.

Me, wanting Genocide on a bunch of Murdering Fools who are already committing Genocide is pretty funny if it were not so horrible and tragic for he Children.

RobertN says I write too much, so I will cut it here. And yes, I would rather see these Children Die a "Quick Death" than to lie in their own Feces as they Slowly Starve to Death .... but then I am strange that way.

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Did you know that many researchers believe that Somalia is now better off than before it had a central government? It has reverted back to a quazi-tribal system and voluntarism and free market principles are actually flourishing in Somalia.

Check out...Anarchy in Somalia in Wikipedia. It actually interesting.