Quote:Historically, you assume, incorrectly, that the demons that in general terms "plague" the African American community are a result of the Civil Rights movement. I can see where you would make that chronological and hypothetical linkage. But the root issue was not the Civil Rights movement, it is the secularization of our culture. The slow erosion of the basic foundation of both the USA and Christian faith

gobaseline this is the same arguement that Greybeard made, and I told him he was an idiot, but now I'm beginning to wonder if you guys actually believe this lunacy you are speaking? You're saying that America is going downhill and pretty soon the whites will catch up to the blacks with numbers just as bad. I guess in a few years there will be a 70% illegetimacy rate in the white community. White crime will catch up to black crime--my gosh you're talking about prison space for 10 to 15 million white males if that is true. I guess as our society gets more secularized that the white dropout rate in high schools will be 50% too like it is for blacks. gobaseline you must be proud that the blacks have been leading the way for all Americans for the past 40 years. The blacks have shown the way to degredation of our culture, and ya'll are just waiting for the whites to catch up. Does that make any sense to you, because that is what you have just said.

Also, I can't follow your argument that the secularazation of our culture is what is causing the bad numbers in the black community because the black community has a very strong church (and by that I mean Christian) culture. Using your argument doubting the sincereity of my faith, maybe the black folk don't take their faith very seriously either?

Quote:Do you have any children?

No, I've never been married, and I don't have any children.

Quote:Could there have been other factors involved that lead to this uniform increase of these societal ills?

Ya, the obvious ones. Poverty, lack of education, codified predjudice, all are undeniable factors.

No, that's the same ole song and dance the race baiters have been using for 40 years. The fact is that black poverty, lack of education and codified predjudice were all very much more alive and well in the black community prior to the civil rights movement and the bad numbers in the black community were not bad then--they were the same percentages as in the white community.

Quote:What have you personally done, other than to point a finger, wag a tongue and send a check or two to "stand in the gap", to love your brother/sister as yourself?

Built or repaired housing?
Tutored at local schools or centers?
Mentored a kid?
Volunteered with a church youth group?
Or at a Crisis Pregnancy Center and promoting and providing their services?
Fostered infants or children?
Worked with the homeless?
Invested either money, time and talent in urban renewal or rural recovery?
Mentored or counseled with the un or underemployed?
Worked with the elderly, disabled, confined to provide them a greater sense of dignity by helping them get out, get in or get around?
Have you organized your local buddies to reach out to others less fortunate than you?
Volunteered to help in the rehabiltation of convicted felons and their transition back as a productive and law abiding neighbors into society?

Fruits of the Spirit help minimize the planks found in one's own eye!

Those are not the fruits of the spirit my friend--those are works. And I'm certainly all for good works, but I've found in my 30 years of walking with the Lord that He is far more concerned with our character developing and becoming conformed to the image of Christ than He is with our good works.

The fruits of the spirt are those things listed in Galations 5:22 & 23.

Cleveland sure has drafted good. I wonder if this will work out for QB Charlie Frye from Akron.

Zone, first and foremost the fruits of the spirit are made manifest in action. Otherwise they are just thoughts. "Fruit" was intentionally used as the metaphor in the Gospels because it was a tangible, physical evidence of the trees health and was a simple, common example that plain folk could understand.

To sit around like you admittedly do without bearing those fruits for the sustenance of your fellow brothers and sisters is falling way short of what Christ calls us to DO!

Your cause and effect linkage to social ills to skin color is both lacking in any intellect, logic or common sense but also utterly diametric to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Your conformance is not to Christ, because your hateful words and lack of action to live as He commanded all believers makes that impossible.

gobaseline Wrote:Zone, first and foremost the fruits of the spirit are made manifest in action. Otherwise they are just thoughts. "Fruit" was intentionally used as the metaphor in the Gospels because it was a tangible, physical evidence of the trees health and was a simple, common example that plain folk could understand.

To sit around like you admittedly do without bearing those fruits for the sustenance of your fellow brothers and sisters is falling way short of what Christ calls us to DO!

Your cause and effect linkage to social ills to skin color is both lacking in any intellect, logic or common sense but also utterly diametric to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Your conformance is not to Christ, because your hateful words and lack of action to live as He commanded all believers makes that impossible.

My hateful words? gobaseline, you're lying to yourself.

You chose the topic.

You chose to write what you did.

You chose to support your position "writing" out of both sides of your mouth. Several here know the historical facts that you use and call you on it.
You then revert to hiding behind your take on what the scripture says and means. My study of scripture, daily struggle to live it out called you on that aspect. Your response was to use more historical data and undergird it with what I read to be less than subtle racism. Your attempt to apply scripture didnt even reach "weak". I called you on that, and you respond with "I'm lying to myself."

If the territory looks familiar it's because you are running in circles. Not a single inch of advancement in your perspective. And I suspect you know it, as now you result in personal attacks.

I cant or will not judge you. Or for those who almost always misapply that Biblical phrase which means to determine your eternal position. But we are all called to be discerning, to be able to tell right from wrong, good from bad.
Your application of the scripture is not only off base, or not even out in left field. It is not in the state in which the ball park is located.

Again, I would encourage you to Read the Book of Acts and the Gospel of John. But first pray for the Holy Spirit's prescence for understanding.

gobaseline Wrote:You chose the topic.

You chose to write what you did.

You chose to support your position "writing" out of both sides of your mouth. Several here know the historical facts that you use and call you on it.
You then revert to hiding behind your take on what the scripture says and means. My study of scripture, daily struggle to live it out called you on that aspect. Your response was to use more historical data and undergird it with what I read to be less than subtle racism. Your attempt to apply scripture didnt even reach "weak". I called you on that, and you respond with "I'm lying to myself."

If the territory looks familiar it's because you are running in circles. Not a single inch of advancement in your perspective. And I suspect you know it, as now you result in personal attacks.

I cant or will not judge you. Or for those who almost always misapply that Biblical phrase which means to determine your eternal position. But we are all called to be discerning, to be able to tell right from wrong, good from bad.
Your application of the scripture is not only off base, or not even out in left field. It is not in the state in which the ball park is located.

Again, I would encourage you to Read the Book of Acts and the Gospel of John. But first pray for the Holy Spirit's prescence for understanding.

Well in typical liberal fashion both you and your buddy Greybeard attack the messenger if you can't attack the message. Look at your last post. It was completely about attacking me, but you're not able to refute the arguments I have made regarding the state of black culture in America. Please stop making references to your high degree of spirituality and perfection in the Christian faith. You're embarassing those of us who are Christians.

My comments are directly related to your claim of being a Christian and your clear racist comments, as if your "religion" absolves your racism.

You raise accurate issues, you even correctly assail those who use it for both political and financial gain.

Then you lump EVERYONE in the groups you have listed and referred to them as "towel heads, "the black people(fully inclusive w/o exception) and the "people screaming in spanish" at the laundramant.

You equate the plight of some, the appropriate shame that should result from such behavior to the entire group.

I have asked what you have done or do to address the issues you raise. I have repeatedly commented on my own shortcomings, but the issue is your clear and resolute position that the shortcomings you point out are not of all humankind, but those "black people, towel heads" and etc.

Regarding your questions about the statistics you raise about "the blacks" and the demise of their once strong religious community I will say this.

Like in Europe and Scandanavia, where at one time, there was a growing and vibrant "faith community", they have drastically changed over the last 60-70 years. They are overwhelmingly secular, as evidenced by their government policies and social consciousness. Legalization of prostitution, rampant divorce, abortion, euthenasia, cohabitating, government subsidized sex changes, just to name some are now common place where only a short time was the notions of these ills were inconceivable.
Is it their genetics? Their skin color? What could take entire regions and continents from one extreme to another?

Is it happening in the US? Is it limited to "the whites" here? So since it is not limited to "the whites" in the US, it must not be the skin color or the genetic make up.

Action follows thought. Could it be the culture, the society's acceptance of such behavior that allows first for its existence, then acceptance then for it's growth? Acceptance. Of what? Ideas! Principles!

What factors or agents would spawn such thought? One's skin color? One's primary language. One's headgear?

Zone, you deny that there are factors other than race. You pin the ability or inability of an individual and an entire group of people on their ethnic heritage.

Look in the mirror. Your skin looks like the godless, hedonistic, self debasing Europeans and Scandanavians.

Say, what's up bro?

I'm done. No more from me. At least I was allowed to have my say on this forum.

GBL-1
Zone-0

game - set - match

I'm not done!

GR, you Commie Pinko you, please stand up for my zealous conservativeness. I was called a liberal. Yuk!

You know I am a right wing nut job. Please stand up for my character!

lmfao

^I have to admit I got a chuckle when I saw that one. Welcome to progressive side of the political spectrum. :drunk2:

I give up. I cant win for losing.

Zone, help me. Even the godless libs think I'm progressive.

pono Wrote:The killer of the Amish schoolgirls, B2K, Columbine, Pine Ridge, 1966 U of Texas massacre, Ted Bundy, Green River Valley, Jeffrey Dahmer, almost to a T this is the profile. they are usually white Christians but the sick club includes some of everybody...

While everyone seems to want to put this in terms of race or religion, it is really about masculinity and how America glorifies violence as an expression of ultimate manhood. Easy gun access contributes to the extent of bloodshed but clearly gun control issues are not simplistic. Some countries have equally high gun ownership rates but low gun violence. Usually, these are places without extremely violent histories. As Americans we should be honest with our violent past, violent presence and status as the worlds primary arms supplier and sutainer of military conflcit. We may be a primarily Christian nation, but that is because we ethnically/religiously cleansed the continent, mostly through gun violence, of it's non Christians. Also, for the record it is much easier to get a travel visa or actually immigrate from predominantly Christian nations than anywhere else if you measure visas/green cards vs. population numbers.

Pono, there seem to be a lot of killers in America that don't fit your stereotype of the angry white American Christian male.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20497

^While you considered the linked rant against immigration did you also consider the following?

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The
alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love
him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

- Leviticus 19: 33-34

Considering your input on other subject matters, I assume you've read the book.

GRPunk Wrote:^While you considered the linked rant against immigration did you also consider the following?

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The
alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love
him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

- Leviticus 19: 33-34

Considering your input on other subject matters, I assume you've read the book.

I'm not against immigration. My dad is a Sicilian immigrant who came to this country when he was 6 years old. He came thorugh Ellis Island, and he came here legally. He didn't just walk across the border in Mexico.

What I'm against is this feel-good atmosphere that pervades our college campus whereby everybody has to be "equal" in privledges, in status, in dress, in success and in every category that there is so we can prove we don't have any prejudice. As I said before, this is the civil rights movement gone beszerk. This is an offshoot of pandering to the black community which should of been stopped 20 years ago.

The guy described in Leviticus is a man who is a "sojourner" as the King James version describes him. This means it is common knowledge that he will only be around for a while. He isn't an illegal Mexican trying to claim legal status like 20 million others are right now in America. You can bet that if he had been caught stalking women and trying to take pictures of girls crotches, he would have been treated much differently than he was at Va. Tech.

I do try to heed the instructions in the passage you quoted. I frequently go down to a little park in dowtown Ft. Worth between the hours of midnight and 0200. It is a place where there are fountains running and there isn't much light. It's very peaceful. Before I go, I put my wallet in my car and put $5 in my shirt pocket. If I see some illegals or just guys who are homeless, I want to be able to help them out. Some of them have been illegal Mexicans. They don't ever ask me for money. With them I have to walk up to them and give it to them.

Well at least one black guy agree with me that blacks are still the slaves of the democratic party:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...E_ID=55553

pono Wrote:I too read of the "Mongol Hordes" in high school. Later, I did some actual study and found out that the reality was actual closer to the "artful negotiation" side. Certainly, the Mongols were feared and used their expert horsemanship to confuse and bum rush their enemies and win battles. However, being a very small army and limited bureaucracy for an empire, the Mongols depended on winning over the people they conquered to a great extent. Their empire existed for many decades despite small numbers because of their skills in running things more than the history book pillaging we now associate with them. I'm sure their cooking didn't hurt either.

As for violence. Well, the US has no monopoly on it. However, we do have a particularly bloody past and present. Perhaps, 40,000,000 native people were killed in the Americas by the conquering conquistadors/Spanish/Pilgrims/Americans/Portuguese,etc..., hundreds of thousands of Filipinos killed by US troops in the recolonization of the Phillipines, millions killed in slavery, detonating of atomic bombs on primarily civilian populations, the massively deadly aerial bombings of WW2 in 43 and 44 were by US planes. We do rank either first or in the top 10 in murders, rapes, imprisonment, executions, war deaths/kllings, etc... in modern times. I'm in no rush to move to Germany. I think the difference is that they forced themselves to acknowledge their worst actions and teach about their atrocities and became a less violent and hateful place for it. Not to say that's made them cute and cuddly or better cooks or musicians. For America it is basically considered subversive and unpatriotic to look at our violent reality. I also think it's irresponsible. You can't rid yourself of every mixed up punk or pervert, but we also nourish these people somehow. There is a psychological foundation linking violence/manhood/homophobia in America that makes too many young men want to prove themselves with a gun. Now, most of us work it out less harmlessly than that, but it is a problem that could be improved if we began to celebrate violence less as a solution and see it more as a last resort of self defense to be used only with great responsibility.

Another interesting thing about the "mongol horde": when they took over an area, they allowed their vanquished to retain their own religious beliefs. None of the Inquisition-style 'believe or perish', no complete destruction of libraries as seen in Constantinople and all written records of the Mayan/Aztec, including astronomical data that was centuries ahead of its time...

Endzone2 Wrote:[Men were made stronger than women--the Bible even says so. Every world record there is has a man's name next to it.

Lynn Hill-World Record free solo of the Nose on El Capitan. Oh, yeah, its a world record cuz nobody else ever did it. Period. No men or Biblical characters. So much for your theory.

Quote:He is far more concerned with our character developing and becoming conformed to the image of Christ than He is with our good works.

Oh? The two are mutually exclusive? You believe you don't have to do good works, so long as you have a wonderful character? Is that how Christ lived? Or did He spend His days on earth doing good works AND demonstrating the character to which man should ascribe?

I'm sorry, but preaching half the truth makes a liar.

Karl Wrote:

Quote:He is far more concerned with our character developing and becoming conformed to the image of Christ than He is with our good works.

Oh? The two are mutually exclusive? You believe you don't have to do good works, so long as you have a wonderful character? Is that how Christ lived? Or did He spend His days on earth doing good works AND demonstrating the character to which man should ascribe?

I'm sorry, but preaching half the truth makes a liar.

In the words of Ronald Reagan, "there you go again". Your anger has clouded your ability to think clearly. Did I say they were mutually exclusive? I gave one a priority and that was being conformed to the image of Christ. Jesus Himself said you shall know them by their fruits. A corrupt tree can not bring forth good fruit. So, make the tree whole, and guess what? Yep, that's right Karl, good fruit comes forth. And I'm sure a big part of good fruit is good works--especially if you have the gift of helps as described in the list of spiritual gifts.

Hey Karl:

1. Why is there over a 70% illegetimacy rate in the black community? Why are 9 out of 10 black kids growing up without their father? Why is the rate only 28% for whites? Why is that and whose fault is it? I don't buy that blacks are more immoral than whites by nature. I don't believe that--do you?

2. There are 3096 blacks in jail/100,000 blacks, and there are 370 whites in jail/100,000 whites. This means black crime is being comitted at a rate 8.3 times greater than white crime as a percentage of respective populations. Whose fault is that? I don't believe that blacks are necessarly more prone to violence than whites--do you? What is the reason?

3. The high school drop out rate among blacks is close to 50%, but for whites it is 10%. Why is that? I don't believe that blacks are more irresponsible by nature than whites, do you? What is the reason?
_________________

I provided you correct answers and you dismissed it.

I then pointed out the pathetic numbers of the same categories in Scandanavia and Europe. So white, almost translucent.

The answer is clear, Scripture points to it. The heart of an individual.

But the heart is not limited to those categories.

There are only two that are scripturially based.

Love God with all your heart, mind and soul.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is not limited to pointing out an individual's flaws, but putting those two previously mentioned categories in action.

As scripture points, those trees (humans) that bear bad fruit or no fruit are cut down and thrown into the fire to be moved out of the way.

Answer and application to your question.