I don't know if you're just a lousy piece of work, or just pisspoor at making your point without sounding like a lousy piece of work.

gobaseline Wrote:Zone, for practical purposes of national defense, economics, in principal I stand on your side of the fence. I understand and agree in pricnipal with Buck's "Roman Empire" theory of "over accomodation, extension of territorial responsibility that resulted in dilution, dilusion, the weakening and ultimate demise of the RE.

You irresponsibly blend "your" religion with national policy topics that frankly discredit "your" take on Christianity.

Though the Old Testament is replete with segregating God's Chosen people, it was not about segregation, but rather about obeying the one, true God. "Back in the day", unlike since Christ's resurrection, God made himself physically visible in various and obvious forms, no mincing of words or confusion of intent. Yet this chosen group continued to exercise their free will to "know and do better". Each time resulting in tangible and protracted consequences. But everytime, God provided "an out", an opportunity of redemption. A theme that reached its pinnacle on Calvary, and continues today for ANYONE who would receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior, no exceptions! However, like in OT days, we have choices.
You gave an OT example of "intermixing cultures", hence "validating" segregation. The "segregation" you refer to was a segregation from innoculation of "other ways to live or to God", not from the people themselves. In Numbers 12 Aaron and Miriam call out Moses for taking a wife not from the "clan". Pointing to it as a violation of what he had been promoting as Gods directive. Read it. It communicates clearly that to "intermingle" was not the issue, it was a question of "who is your God?"
Moses proved faithful and obedient and Aaron and Miriam as frauds.

The New Testament is the history of Gods, extension of redemption of His entire creation, by faith in Christ.

The book of Acts specifically points out with well known accounts, of both Peter and Paul (they in themselves are a dicotomy, one "well bred" the other a commoner, well schooled vs hard knocks, connected, not, wealthy, hand to mouth) going through out the Mediterranean purposefully seeking, sharing the good news with all. Macedonians, Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Medes, Ethipoians (Eunuch's too) and on and on.
All putting into practice the great commission and exercising the great commandment.
Utterly a minority, by faith and in action changed history via God's pesonality (Holy Spirit). Your calander is a good example.
To the point, you feel as the 'majority" that it is time to sit on your duff and live in peace.
Instead, I suggest you disconnect your "holier than thou" perspective from your religion and policy making and instead of "protecting the turf" go out and share the Gospel.

Someone earlier, accurately commented on how the Korean Peninsula was at one time was significant mission field. Now adays, many of them, are coming here to return the favor. As a culture, IMO, our hedonist secular narcistic desires have lead to some serious societal ills. This country is indeed a ripe mission field. However, your take is to add by subtraction.
I for one know that the principle of freedom this country was and is based on emminates from the Biblical perspective of the Founding Fathers. Principles are only as "good" as their being carried out. Our history is full of missteps, some under the guise of "religion". As a nation we have survived and even thrived. Not perfect, again, human.
That freedom allows me to carry out what God has commanded, and that is to "share" the good news. Not use it "up the side of the head" on some, "rewrite it" when others accept it so they too are continued to be excluded or exclude it from others because they have their own take.

I for one believe that the Gospel is so compelling that when shared it will continue to shape the world we live in. Devoid of it, we would fall back to the intimidation, narcistic ways of any empire from the past.

You, "my brother" need to sit down with some of our S. Korean believers and hear how the inclusivity has taken them from being "lost" to now being "found". Better yet, I can put you in contact with folks at the only Church in Cairo Eygpt, the Nile Theological Center. In spite of being in the vast minority lmfao and threats from the government and "isolationist/exclusionsit " Mosques in the area, they faithfully and diligently keep extending the hope Jesus offers. Not a friendly "road" game but one that we are all called to strap on the gear and go out live.

gobaseline, I have to tell you it stretches my mental capacities to the fullest to try and follow the logic of your postings. I do believe you're trying to act smarter and more knowledgeable on the subject of Christianity than what you really are. How old are you BTW?

You talk something in there about Koreans and the Korean war and korean Chritians, but guess what gobaseline? Gobaseline didn't even mention in his diatribe that the largest church in the world with the largest number of home groups (30,000) is right in Seoul, Korea. Now for a guy who is suppossed to know a lot about Koreans and Christianity, the idea that this fact completely excaped you tells me you don't know squat about what you're talking about. I've known about this church for years and most all of my church friends do. The Pastor's name is David Yonggi Cho.

In your next post could you please try to be more logical. Maybe you could answer this simple question:

How old are you and how long have you been a Christian?

http://www.ambassador4christ.org/yoido_church.html

Karl Wrote:I don't know if you're just a lousy piece of work, or just pisspoor at making your point without sounding like a lousy piece of work.

So, then you do at least agree that I'm trying to make a point? Am I a "lousy piece of work" for trying to make a point? How did I make it in a lousy way? Aren't there 33 dead people to help prove my point?

And over to the MAC Spin Room this one goes...

DocBluez Wrote:And over to the MAC Spin Room this one goes...

Thanks for not deleting it. I believe this is a very important topic, but of course it isn't directly sports related or MAC related.

My chronological age and the length of time in which I have been a Christian are irrelevant to the discussion.

Regarding your mental capabilities, I'll leave that to yourself and possibly others. However, your reading ability and comprehension are apparently lacking. In the paragraph that I mentioned Korea, I did not mention the Korean War, nor imply anything regarding it. If then you are confused, we have a glimpse into why.

I didnt mention "the worlds" largest church because it was not germaine to my comments. I am aware of it. The name or it's pastor? No. Those two facts are again irrelevant to this conversation.

Let me be blunt. Your comments come across racist. You used disrespectful terms and an anecdote to describe Muslims as a whole and people that speak Spanish as their primary language.

You wrapped both in geo-political terms of immigration policy and generalizations contrasting how some Muslim dominated governments officially or otherwise address religious freedom. Then in an attempt to justify your seemingly racist comments, sealed your argument with the stamp of "self rightousness" by claiming to be a Christian and implied that these two groups are a threat to either or both our national security or "cultural purity".

I brought Korea into the discussion as a counter balance to your racist comments. Hardly Anglo and as first generation immigrants, their enunciation of the Kings English is less than "pure". Yet, by most Evangelical standards, believers in Korea, not to mention the African continent hold more true to the Christian faith and are less influenced by their secular surroundings as we are in the US. However, as Christians, they likely dont measure up to your standard of purity as you described "towel heads" and Spanish speaking folks doing their laundry at the laundromat. Can we subplant "towel heads" with ?????? and Spanish speaking with Korean?

You purposefully mix one's religous faith with ethnicity and or ethnicity with a different religous faith. Your conclusion is "they" are less than you. So you purpose a form of isolation or segreation. They stay "over there" and you can live in peace.

I pointed out that your conclusion drawn from the Old Testament was both incorrect and utterly out of context to your social commentary on today.

I pointed out that the "new covenant" in the New Testament reached out to others that were different, not just similar. In fact, that is the command given in the great commission. There is no choice to be made. It flatly contradicts your comments.

gobaseline Wrote:My chronological age and the length of time in which I have been a Christian are irrelevant to the discussion.

Regarding your mental capabilities, I'll leave that to yourself and possibly others. However, your reading ability and comprehension are apparently lacking. In the paragraph that I mentioned Korea, I did not mention the Korean War, nor imply anything regarding it. If then you are confused, we have a glimpse into why.

I didnt mention "the worlds" largest church because it was not germaine to my comments. I am aware of it. The name or it's pastor? No. Those two facts are again irrelevant to this conversation.

Let me be blunt. Your comments come across racist. You used disrespectful terms and an anecdote to describe Muslims as a whole and people that speak Spanish as their primary language.

You wrapped both in geo-political terms of immigration policy and generalizations contrasting how some Muslim dominated governments officially or otherwise address religious freedom. Then in an attempt to justify your seemingly racist comments, sealed your argument with the stamp of "self rightousness" by claiming to be a Christian and implied that these two groups are a threat to either or both our national security or "cultural purity".

I brought Korea into the discussion as a counter balance to your racist comments. Hardly Anglo and as first generation immigrants, their enunciation of the Kings English is less than "pure". Yet, by most Evangelical standards, believers in Korea, not to mention the African continent hold more true to the Christian faith and are less influenced by their secular surroundings as we are in the US. However, as Christians, they likely dont measure up to your standard of purity as you described "towel heads" and Spanish speaking folks doing their laundry at the laundromat. Can we subplant "towel heads" with ?????? and Spanish speaking with Korean?

You purposefully mix one's religous faith with ethnicity and or ethnicity with a different religous faith. Your conclusion is "they" are less than you. So you purpose a form of isolation or segreation. They stay "over there" and you can live in peace.

I pointed out that your conclusion drawn from the Old Testament was both incorrect and utterly out of context to your social commentary on today.

I pointed out that the "new covenant" in the New Testament reached out to others that were different, not just similar. In fact, that is the command given in the great commission. There is no choice to be made. It flatly contradicts your comments.

Alright I get it now--you're a black guy. Your last post gave you away.

I guess my point would be that where the civil rights movement started out as good--not to discriminate solely on the basis of a human being having black skin, it has now become something totally perverted in our culture. And that, it seems to me, is that we don't discriminate based on ANYTHING!!! We have to pretend that everybody is "equal" in every possible way, and the only way to do that is to have no standards for measurement whatsoever. I guess the thing I haven't resolved in my mind is whether this pervasive thinking among young people is an offshoot of the corrupted civil rights movement or is a result of moral decadence in our culture. That's the thing I haven't resolved in mind. Does anyone have any idea as to its origin?

Endzone2 Wrote:[ Does anyone have any idea as to its origin?

Sorry. still trying to work out your planet of origin.

Warning to the MAC fans trying to discuss issues with EZ2, it won't be long before you get one of these types of exchanges...be prepared...

Quote:

Endzone2 Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

Endzone2 Wrote:I very logically answered your question Greybeard. You think the whites will soon follow by having tats plastered all over themselves and have music that calls women ******* and ho's. You think whites will soon have a culture were 70% of white children are born to unmarried parents. You think whites will soon have a crime rate as high as blacks? You think whites will soon have a 50% high school drop out rate? This is what I am assuming you meant. If you meant something else, would you please explain yourself?

Actually, I do...The American family (the unit that best combats what you describe) is for all intents and purposes and endangered species. With the demise of the family (ie rampant divorce, children out of wedlock, abortion, etc.) people will begin to lose sight of their natural roles (men-husband, father, breadwinner; women-wife, mother, nurturer) and turn to whatever makes them feel good. As the familiy continues to disolve, there will be more and more wayword children, teens, & adults from all walks of life and races.

You do believe in the Bible right? Luke 17:26..."Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man."

I still don't understand why you think that white people don't get tatoos. Are you actually blind to the faults (as you see them) of white people?

Greybeard quit acting like a stupid @ss idiot. Either you are an idiot or this is some kind of pathetic show on your part. THE BLACK COMMUNITY ALREADY IS A MESS! THERE IS A 70% ILLIGETIMACY RATE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY! BLACK CRIME IS OUT OF SIGHT! BLACK CRIME IS BEING COMMITED AT A RATE 8.3 TIMES THE RATE OF WHITE CRIME. NEARLY 50% OF BLACK KIDS QUIT HIGH SCHOOL. FOR WHITES IT IS LESS THAN 10%. You have not answered my question sir!!!! You have not answered my question in the least. Except that maybe you wont be happy until whites have just as bad awh numbers and then we will all be "equal". That seems to me to be what you want, and you are a fricking absolute moron of an idiot!!!!!! I want the numbers in the black community to come up to the same levels (or better) as the white community. I want the numbers in the black community to return to the levels they were prior to the civil rights movement. I want to do away with affirmative action and entitlement attitude on the part of blacks so that they can have a chance to take responsbilility for themselves again and not be the slaves of the democratic party. I want there to be change. But you, no you, the bright boy, the enlightened one want the number in the white culture to be just as bad as the numbers in the black culture so that we can all be "equal".

I've calmed down a little bit now, and I know the Bible gives a stern warning about making sure your justified in calling "your brother" and idiot, but I will not pull a Don Imus and I stand by my choice of words completely no matter what the consequences. In order for you to try and win some kind of arguement against me, you have displayed to all that you are a complete f__king idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have fun!

My genetic race, ethnicity, age, political affiliation and position on socio-political issues have little or no casual effect relationship. Therefore they are irrelevant to any discussion.

As I have heard on a local conservative radio station in Chicago and seen on their billboards, it is not right vs. left, it is Right vs. Wrong.

If Right and Wrong are color coded in Scripture, I would like you to specifically point it out. And do so in it's full context.

Equal, as I would define it, from my understanding of scripture would have two points.
We are all equal in God's eyes as having Sinned or chosen to rebel against His "good and perfect will for us".

Jesus's death on the cross and resurrection from the tomb was the full payment owed as a result of our Sin. A payment, a wage was the price needed to be paid for that sin. His death, on our behalf paid that wage or debt in full. Anyone and everyone who then believes in their heart and acknowledges that Jesus's claim as the Son of God, the Christ would receive eternal life. Not some. Not just me and not you. Anyone.

So what "race" was Jesus? Color of his skin? Would his "native" accent past muster in the laundrymat?

The fact that he was a convicted felon, by the Roman Empire, influence your opinion of him? In secular human terms, he was a bastard. Thoughts? His "mom" was pregnant out of wedlock. Comments?

Your refusal to respond with any accuracy regarding the scriptural side of this discussion is telling.

As I pointed out earlier, and I will be more blunt now. You hide behind your claim to be a Christian, to camoflauge your dislike for groups of people. You do so knowing many here could not or would not have an understanding of what you refer to. Then you weave in your take on socio-political issues to asuage those who might understand that angle but not your "religious speak". It just so happened I speak both, and am calling you out on the more important. Your claim that your racism is also my faith.

You don't have a friggin leg to stand on and you know it.

You speak of logic? I strongly suspect, the other folks that have commented may not have my faith. That's fine. But they read your illogic clearly and easily. Like hitting a 16" softball off a batting tee.

Aside from reading the book of Acts, the documented life, of the leadership of "The Way", all but a handful willingly died to share the Good News they personal experienced in Jesus, but also the Gospel of John.

The written eye and ear witness of the disciple John who was chosen to hang with Jesus, by Jesus. Take the template that is provided by both His recorded words and actions and lay it over your take on foreigners, people of other faith, education levels, health conditions, yadda yadda.

If you conclude, with some feedback, offering concrete scriptual evidence, I will smoke a towel of your choosing, do a Mexican hat dance and show you some of my Souuuuuuuuullllllllllllll Train moves. But this honky ain't holdin his breath. I turn purple, and I don't wear that particular color well.

In the meantime, I will be on other boards railing against the Commie Pinko Slacker Teachers Unions, Pornographers in Hollywierd, the UN, ACLUosers, every main line Protestant denomination's "social justice" asexual amoralists and most things secular.

Did I tell you I like to hunt ring neck pheasant and fish for walleye? I love German short hair pointers. They are great hunting dogs. Usually give me the running start i need to hunt those birds just as they get 10 feet off the ground. My hops aren't what they used to be, but there are few things more exhilerating than catching those ringnecks in flight and snapping their necks in two. I am grateful God gave them that ring on their necks. I just wish He made a perforated line. My hand strength isn't what it used to be when I was in my 70's.

gobaseline Wrote:My genetic race, ethnicity, age, political affiliation and position on socio-political issues have little or no casual effect relationship. Therefore they are irrelevant to any discussion.

This is the one sentence that I understood. Although you didn't have to try to impress us with flowery speech. You could of said it much simplier. I think you have nailed the prevailing attitude on U.S. public college campuses. No wonder you disagree with me. I say all those things do matter. I say those things tell us very much about each other. But this was not the philosophy on the VT campus. Their philosophy was to prove to themselves that everybody is one big "equal" happy family. They had to prove that Cho was "just one of the boys" by giving him every possible break. Korean Americans were just as great awh guys as your average white guy on campus and VT wasn't going to have it any other way--except when something happened that they couldn't control and that was the murderous rampage. Even the day after the shooting they were there in their memorial service to show the world how "incluvsive" they were of every religion and every race and how "equal" they all were.

Greybeard I'll say it again, and in a way I'm glad you posted that so people can just exactly how derranged you are. You actually believe that in order for the races to be "equal" that there should be 70% illgeticmacy among whites just as there is with blacks. You think the white crime rate should be just as bad as blacks so that we can all be equal. And the same goes for high school drop out rates.

I'll say it again only not so forcefully this time. You are a total nut job. You are obsessed with this "equality" and "inclusive" mindset that your buddy gobaseline is. The idea that there should be no standards or else all standards should be "equal" because the worst thing we can have in our culture is for somebody to make value judgments. This is pure craziness.

I sure hope it's possible to put a moderator on ignore.

So what color is Jesus and what language would he need to use in the laundramat to be accepted by you?

What specifically do you disagree with in what I wrote regarding equality?

Please don't give us your "take" on what you thought I wrote, but actually on what I wrote regarding "equality". Note, I did not mention the Korean War.

Regarding the school admin. not taking action. Sure, they must step in. Medical professionals, IMO, deemed him dangerous, period. No brainer.

But you then turn it into that an American of Korean decent is being elevated to some nebulous unstated and only insinuated standard. Implying that he was given some preference because of his ethnic heritage.

The more you weigh in the more your'e way out.

gobaseline Wrote:So what color is Jesus and what language would he need to use in the laundramat to be accepted by you?

I'm pretty sure he had the look of most other people of His day and spoke Aramaic. If Jesus spoke Aramaic, that's just fine with me. He was the Son of God and can speak any language he wants to.

Quote:What specifically do you disagree with in what I wrote regarding equality?

Jimmy the Greek was right--it is in the genes. Why was he branded a racist bigot for saying something truthful? Let me answer. Because that would destroy the perpetual quest to make blacks equal with whites which is an impossibility. It is also impossible to make whites "equal" with blacks. You see I disagree with the campus definition of equality. Blacks will always do better than whites at football and basketball because of their God given ability. It seems that no matter what is done academically in the black community, blacks will always score somewhere between 185 to 230 points lower on their SAT test. We were all created different, and we are falsely being pressured by social engineering to a state where we are all "equal" in all areas of ability. That is what I disagree with--the prevelant mindset on the public college campus. The same can be said according to nationalities and race. We know what Asaians are good at, we know what Mexicans are good at, etc. When I was allowed to post on the Miami Hawktalk board, we had a similar discussion about Title IX. There the battle is trying to make the sexes "equal". Somebody said that the powers that be aren't really interested in "equal opportunity" as much as they are "equality of results". Whoever said that was right, and anybody with half a brain will realize that "equality of results" is an impossibility. Men were made stronger than women--the Bible even says so. Every world record there is has a man's name next to it.

Quote:Please don't give us your "take" on what you thought I wrote, but actually on what I wrote regarding "equality". Note, I did not mention the Korean War.

I think your definition of equality is the Reverend JJ and Big Al definition. And that is to keep the white community bogged down in guilt over something that isn't even an issue anymore so that we can pretend (by spending trillions of dollars and holding quotas, etc.) that blacks will be equal to whites in ALL areas and especially academic if us white folks just were so darn predjudice. It's a lie. We have to accept our God given differences and go from there. But don't misunderstand me, I never base anyones worth on their intelligence.

Quote:Regarding the school admin. not taking action. Sure, they must step in. Medical professionals, IMO, deemed him dangerous, period. No brainer.

No, that's not the place to step in. The place to step in was back when he was stalking the girls. They should have stepped in with a warning. When he pulled the stunt of taking pictures of their legs and other areas, he should of been immediately escorted off campus and told never to return. BUT, the campus could not bear the thought that they weren't "fair" to this disadvantaged poor lonely Korean guy.

Quote:But you then turn it into that an American of Korean decent is being elevated to some nebulous unstated and only insinuated standard. Implying that he was given some preference because of his ethnic heritage.

My gut tells me if a white guy had done this he would have been long gone or at least disciplined in some way. Special preferences and considerations for minorities at VT seem to be alive and well--and even embraced.

Quote:The more you weigh in the more your'e way out.

The more you weigh in, the more you're way out. Hmmmm, that is a catchy little phrase I guess. I guess it means the more I say, the more I'm wrong?

Alright, then answer these 3 questions:

1. Why is there over a 70% illegetimacy rate in the black community? Why are 9 out of 10 black kids growing up without their father? Why is the rate only 28% for whites? Why is that and whose fault is it? I don't buy that blacks are more immoral than whites by nature. I don't believe that--do you?

2. There are 3096 blacks in jail/100,000 blacks, and there are 370 whites in jail/100,000 whites. This means black crime is being comitted at a rate 8.3 times greater than white crime as a percentage of respective populations. Whose fault is that? I don't believe that blacks are necessarly more prone to violence than whites--do you? What is the reason?

3. The high school drop out rate among blacks is close to 50%, but for whites it is 10%. Why is that? I don't believe that blacks are more irresponsible by nature than whites, do you? What is the reason?

Endzone2 Wrote:Greybeard I'll say it again, and in a way I'm glad you posted that so people can just exactly how derranged you are. You actually believe that in order for the races to be "equal" that there should be 70% illgeticmacy among whites just as there is with blacks. You think the white crime rate should be just as bad as blacks so that we can all be equal. And the same goes for high school drop out rates.

I'll say it again only not so forcefully this time. You are a total nut job. You are obsessed with this "equality" and "inclusive" mindset that your buddy gobaseline is. The idea that there should be no standards or else all standards should be "equal" because the worst thing we can have in our culture is for somebody to make value judgments. This is pure craziness.

I sure hope it's possible to put a moderator on ignore.

That is not what I said at all, but you have proven over an over that your reading comprehension is that of a 4th grader.

Let me be clear. My contention with your comments are not based on statistics or the practical understanding that people are not literally equal in every characteristic, physical or mental.

No one is equal, literally in the those terms you lay out. I agree. Therefore, I have taken the position that i would prefer to be treated fairly not equally. Don't hold me down or back because someone else is not as capable in THAT given category. Nor is it FAIR to elevate me to someone elses "level" to minimize my inability and make "equal". That cheapens the achiever, and in the end will misguide those that lag behind into thinking work is not needed/good.

However, lets dont confuse apples and oranges. You use quantative measures like out of wedlock pregnancies, ACT/SAT scores, median income levels, etc.

I am refering to matters of the heart and soul and clearly stated as such. That the one true God lays out through scripture, emphasizing the new covenant offered via Jesus that ALL are available to believe and be "saved". One's achievement, marital status, birh status, criminal record, skin color, ethnicity have ZERO effect on that offer.

Could humankinds SIN, that manifests itself in a myriad of ways hamper, even cripple anyones ability to hear and understand the Good News. Yes! It also limits the ability to share the Good News. Our prejucice(s) blind us to the above stated fact that NO ONE is excluded from God's Grace (undeserved favor) and mercy.

You appear to have been distracted by the very "issue" you rail against. The likes of Sharpton or his counterpart of any other category (age, color, position, ethnicity, etc.) make their stand on "quantative" secular issues that keep the discussion of the more sensitive and important one of eternal life.

To generally answer your question(s) I will say that those figures regardless of their accuracy or not are not genetically or spirtually inherent to them.

Regarding "feats" on the field of athletic competition, there may be merit to the quantative measurement in numbers, you use. And I agree that groups of people, but more specifically individuals have superior abilities in some of those given fields. That has NO correalation between those abilities and their worth in God's eyes.

If, then your argument is that what is in the heart of man manifests itself in what is said and done, therefore, using the categorical statistics you did, you have the evidence that "these folks" are just as you portray, lacking in spiritual worth, you are incorrect.

God, does not grade on a curve, nor is the standard out of reach and unachieveable. Because it is not about achievement, it is about faith or lack of it.

The book of Romans speaks clearly about that ALL of us fall short of the Glory of God.
The just returen for sin or fair wage of sin is death. Physical death for all. Regardless or college boards, sexual orientation, promiscuity, donations to the poor, on and on.
It goes on that no action or good deed can pay that debt created by SIN, that all human actions are like filty rags that fill God's nostrils with stench.

That is by faith alone, again, not skin color, spoken language, or any other demographic.

So even the woman at the well, a Samaritan, adultress, shacking up type, can be approached by God through Jesus, have a conversation and be told the obvious "to sin no more" but is offered the source of ultimate "thirst quenching", "living water", the knowledge that it is faith in Christ, not your past that is critical. People that cheat others out of finances, extorters, liars, "politically connected types" can be called to have dinner with Christ and be asked to come and follow and leave their growing and intangling lifestyle that is inherent to Sin.

So the precedent and template for human relations has been set. Notice, that these folks' sin was not allowed as a "barrier" from living as Jesus requires us to. To love our neighbor as ourself. Their sin was not ignored, Jesus doesnt say, be nice but keep wailing away. He says stop, repent and receive a changed heart(view point).

So since God still allows for Sin to exist, and it is our mission to love our neighbor as ourself what are you doing to advance the kingdom?

Quote:To generally answer your question(s) I will say that those figures regardless of their accuracy or not are not genetically or spirtually inherent to them.

I couldn't agree more.

Quote:Regarding "feats" on the field of athletic competition, there may be merit to the quantative measurement in numbers, you use. And I agree that groups of people, but more specifically individuals have superior abilities in some of those given fields. That has NO correalation between those abilities and their worth in God's eyes.

Yes those numbers I put up are for general groups of population and there are always expecptions, but they are numerical facts. I couldn't agree more that their worth in God's eyes has nothing to do with certain predispositions of different races. Real racism is to say that somebody is inferior just because they have black skin. There is a big difference between that and the trumped up charges of racism created by JJ and Al.

But honestly you haven't really answered my 3 questions have you? I completely agree with you that what I believe to be inherent differences in the races have nothing whatsoever to do with their value and beings created in the image of God. John 3:16 plainly tells us that. Also another passage of the Bible says, "God is no respecter of persons". In other words He's not impressed more if you're a super star pro football player or if you're a garbage collector.

gobaseline, I've given you a few days to respond to my 3 questions, and I see you don't want to answer? In the 2 or 3 other forums I have posed these questions (not all sports boards) there has never been a truthful response except for the old tired worn out "blacks don't have the same opportunities" crap that we all know isn't true. So, I'm going to answer.

The sin numbers that are so bad in the black community today were not that way prior to the perversion of the civil rights movement by the democrats in the mid 1960's. In fact, in the 1920's, 1930'2, 1940's and 1950's the illigetimacy rates and crimes rates were about the SAME for both blacks and whites and were lower than those rates for whites today. So, something significant happened in the mid 1960's, and I believe it was the civil rights movement gone bad. This generation of blacks is the most babied, spoiled pampered, badgered and protected class of Americans to ever live in our nation's history. They are told that nothing is their fault (it's always white racism if things don't go their way) and are not taught to accept responsibility for anything negative in black culture. In fact, no one ever even calls them on their bad numbers--especially members of the media. If they did of course they would be immediately branded as racist and the perpetual cycle of unaccountability in the black community continues. A sense of entitlement has caused black males to abandon their families in droves. "Let the federal government take care of my family" must be their way of thinking. After all, they are entitled to special treatment. This is a vicious system that requires an almost total lock on the black vote for the democratic party whereby the democrats will ensure that "payback" policies such as affirmative action, quotas, welfare and other privledges and special treatment for blacks are maintained. A good dose of white guilt will be maintained by cooperative thugs such as JJ and Big Al as a catalyst for maintaining the status quo.

The only way those bad sin numbers in the black community are ever going to reverse is for blacks to again assume responsibility for what happens in their community and to be held accountable. No more transferring blame for their problems. Of course most seem content to accept the sorry state of the black family in order to keep the status quo alive. This is a shame to the black people.

The federal government should abolish affirmative action, quotes and set aside jobs at Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Harris, General Dynamcis, Collins Rockwell, GM, The FCC, The FAA and hundreds of other companies that are there for blacks. No more letting blacks get into MIT with SAT scores that are 200 points lower than the average student. No more blacks getting into law school at the University of Michigan with SAT scores that are 200 points lower than the average student in that program. No more trying to make blacks equal with whites and whites equal with blacks. Let each function according to the God given abilities and pursue them to the fullest. Let blacks take complete responsibility for the condition of their life. No more special privledges. No more blaming the lie of white racism for their failures. That will change the numbers and make them better than or equal to the rates in the white community.

There must be a system in place though so that we don't have a repeat of what happened in Rochester, NY in the early 1960's. Blacks went to Kodak to apply for jobs on the assembly line and were denied simply because they were black. This is very wrong, but the federal governments solution has been very wrong too.

Couldn't get into college, huh? ;-)

Zone, I chose not to answer your questions because I had made my point.

Your rhetoric continues to be spliced with dividing people along racial lines. Your words regarding "in the eyes of God", ring hollow. You say, "...
the black people . . ." as if they are not a part of the human race God created, but rather a physical, mental, moral, island unto themselves. You point to statistics, percentages and secular social policy and their resultant failures to justify your angst.

Towel head and screaming Spanish speaking 'islands" have popped up on
"your peaceful continent", and you show your disdain. Again, not remotely Christ like. But then I wouldnt expect you to be predicated on your words. You quote or paraphrase scripture but you counter it with utter disdain for those not exactly like you. I could quote or paraphrase the Koran but that wouldnt make me Moslem.

My comments are not intended to sway you, not in the least. Others, like myself, who have too much time on our hands, read our comments. I wanted to make clear that your "take" on Christianity has no accuracy as it pertains to application or living out the Gospel. Your less than subtle dislike for other sinners, and linking their actions to the direct result of their ethnicity has no Biblical standing whatsoever.

The only distinction God makes, as shared in the parable of the separating of the goats and sheep, are between those faithfully living out the Gospel and those who do not. Those who do not are not limited to just non-believers but those who claim to be but do little or nothing to "live out the Gospel".

Historically, you assume, incorrectly, that the demons that in general terms "plague" the African American community are a result of the Civil Rights movement. I can see where you would make that chronological and hypothetical linkage. But the root issue was not the Civil Rights movement, it is the secularization of our culture. The slow erosion of the basic foundation of both the USA and Christian faith. All of freedom and the resulting "rights" are from God. Cut God out the loop or marginilize God and Human wisdom is elevated. No human, including this one, in all of history, doesnt look out for themself first. I rationalize and justify, as any human whatever suits me best. I can wrap myself in the flag, Bible, Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Sunday comics and fool some folks most of the time. By demonizing others I can even mobilize yet others who may benefit from demeaning that first group. And then we are off to the races, no pun intended.
I will agree with you, sort of, that the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have turned this into a cottage industry and career paths for themselves. But they, as you and I are not the root problems, just the "fruit" hanging off the "rooted" tree. Neither JJ or AS's attempt to solve the root causes, nor does your holier than thou finger pointing and turning your back to those that need change behavior.

The Gospel not only denies that but calls it for what it is, Sin. We are not called to point out our "brothers" problem, we are to love them in spite of it by holding them accountable. Are you a parent? You may want to beat your mule, but if you beat your kid you'll pay in spades, particularly latter in life.

Regarding your flawed take that all the sins you listed for "black" Americans are race centric, what do you attribute the same issues to other "races" here or abroad?

Intellectually, you can't say that it is the "higher numbers" that undergird your position, that it is a race or ethnic issue. As the 60's "free love" fest bloomed, as a manifestitation of the secularization process that started a generation or so before, "white" #'s exploded in those very same categories. In Europe, those #'s were everybit as close to the AA community in the US or even worse.
So you MUST look beyond skin deep to find the truth.

Could there have been other factors involved that lead to this uniform increase of these societal ills?

Ya, the obvious ones. Poverty, lack of education, codified predjudice, all are undeniable factors.

I will agree many if not most of the "solutions" employed were short sighted, misdiagnosed, emasculating, mostly rhetoric and too often self serving. Hence the continued struggle.

But since you have refused to directly respond to the spritual points and questions I have raised on and primarily use raw statistics, let me ask you a some pointed questions.

What have you personally done, other than to point a finger, wag a tongue and send a check or two to "stand in the gap", to love your brother/sister as yourself?

Built or repaired housing?
Tutored at local schools or centers?
Mentored a kid?
Volunteered with a church youth group?
Or at a Crisis Pregnancy Center and promoting and providing their services?
Fostered infants or children?
Worked with the homeless?
Invested either money, time and talent in urban renewal or rural recovery?
Mentored or counseled with the un or underemployed?
Worked with the elderly, disabled, confined to provide them a greater sense of dignity by helping them get out, get in or get around?
Have you organized your local buddies to reach out to others less fortunate than you?
Volunteered to help in the rehabiltation of convicted felons and their transition back as a productive and law abiding neighbors into society?

Fruits of the Spirit help minimize the planks found in one's own eye!